Lemon Law Question.

[turnone]

Uh...  You needed a new radiator and it wasn't available, they tried to fix it and it wasn't repairable.  They tried to order and it was back ordered?

 

Doesn't fall under Lemon Law.

 

Lemon Law is essentially a deal where you say, had a radiator issue, took it in, had it covered under warranty and it was fixed.  Later, it happens again, you get it repaired.  It happens again or another issue pops up and warrantied.

 

Basically, you have a string of issues that are warrantied (Recognized by the manufacturer as a defect and handled) and decide that the bike is always in for warranty work and is a "lemon".

 

The scenario you describe could have been a lazy dealer not ordering quickly or not getting with the manufacturer with the claim, etc.  Then ordered and it was back ordered or they forgot to order and used "It was back ordered" as an excuse - happens on a regular basis.  Most manufacturers are at the 95% plus fill rate.  

 

But I can check with another dealer in just checking and pretending to order one and see if it is back ordered.  Usually, you find out if it is or not.  If not, lazy dealer and certainly not under Lemon Law...

 

This isn't 100% correct.  Most states it is EITHER multiple attempts or total cumulative time of 30 days (some states less).  Some say 3 times with same problem.  4 total problems or 30 days total out of service time.  Some states are a little different but most seem similar.

 

According to the Arizona Attorney General on this page https://www.azag.gov/consumer/cars

"f during the covered period, the manufacturer fails to successfully repair the defect after four attempts, or the car is out of service by reason of repair for a cumulative total of 30 or more calendar days, the manufacturer must accept return of the car or replace the car with a new car."

 

In his case he did report to the dealer within the covered period and it will be considered a lemon if it exceeds 30 days in for service.

There is no provision for why your vehicle was out of service.  Lack or parts, or lack or repair knowledge, etc, doesn't matter at all according to the law.

 

This presumes AZ considers motorcycles the same as cars.  Which from the best I can tell it does.  Hell they even have a little coverage for used cars, which I believe to be rare.

 

My experience is only one car, and as I mentioned the dealer took it back as OH would have required them to and they would have to 'brand' the title lemon effectively killing the value of the vehicle.

[Tpoppa]

^^^

That is accurate. 30 days = LL.  It doesn't matter if the dealer is lazy, or parts are backordered, etc

[Moto-Brian]

So you've handled thousands of LL cases.  Dial it down...man.

 

We're talking about LL cases, not good will repairs made by the dealer or OEM.  And yes mine was a motorcycle LL case. 

 

Sorry, I'll trust my attorney who handles nothing but LL cases every day.

 

 

You don't know who I work for, do you or my background.  Trust your attorney.  They are always looking out for your best interest vs. their wallet, right?

 

The idea of Good Will is showing that manufacturers DO NOT drag their feet.  If a LL issue arises, they attend immediately and I am arguing that you are stating YOUR OPINION that they don't.

 

When an attorney gets involved, it can cause delays.  Once that happens, there becomes a legal issue and yes, things get delayed but not because of dragging feet.  When a lawsuit is threatened, you slow the process down because now both legal councils are involved and creates red tape.  You chose an attorney for whatever reasons.  In doing so, it slows it down.

 

I am saying that if you build a relationship, work with the company and dealer, more often than not, they will Good Will something rather than let it get to where you took it.

 

And yes, I can give thousands of examples...

[Moto-Brian]

This isn't 100% correct.  Most states it is EITHER multiple attempts or total cumulative time of 30 days (some states less).  Some say 3 times with same problem.  4 total problems or 30 days total out of service time.  Some states are a little different but most seem similar.

 

According to the Arizona Attorney General on this page https://www.azag.gov/consumer/cars

"f during the covered period, the manufacturer fails to successfully repair the defect after four attempts, or the car is out of service by reason of repair for a cumulative total of 30 or more calendar days, the manufacturer must accept return of the car or replace the car with a new car."

 

In his case he did report to the dealer within the covered period and it will be considered a lemon if it exceeds 30 days in for service.

There is no provision for why your vehicle was out of service.  Lack or parts, or lack or repair knowledge, etc, doesn't matter at all according to the law.

 

This presumes AZ considers motorcycles the same as cars.  Which from the best I can tell it does.  Hell they even have a little coverage for used cars, which I believe to be rare.

 

My experience is only one car, and as I mentioned the dealer took it back as OH would have required them to and they would have to 'brand' the title lemon effectively killing the value of the vehicle.

 

 

You are correct.  There are several state differences as to how viewed.  But typically, there is a string of issues that is involved.  Yes, the 30 days in for the same thing can be shown, but there needs to be proof that the dealership has tried honestly to rectify and correct.  If the OEM doesn't get it handled, it can be a LL issue if addressed.  I just was giving a quick example of the typical idea.  Multiple problems in a short period of time can constitute LL focus.  But you are correct, it isn't just that.  It can be more or even less...

[Moto-Brian]

^^^

That is accurate. 30 days = LL.  It doesn't matter if the dealer is lazy, or parts are backordered, etc

 

 

Again, you are generalizing, man.  Stop giving out bullshit answers.  

 

There are issues that can arise to keep a bike in service for 30 days.  If a dealership drags their feet and does not issue warranty request to the OEM, how the fuck is the OEM responsible?  You got so many light facts that it is driving me crazy.  Do us all a favor and get exacts before you spew falsehoods, please...

 

Sceario:

 

Dealer takes in your bike that has a radiator issue.  They note that it SHOULD be covered under warranty as in the end, the OEM will make the final decision.

 

Three weeks go by and you call and follow up, but the reality is that the dealership is busy and the Service Manager forgot to order the part and submit the warranty request.  3 weeks.  Hell, make it two weeks.  Whatever.

 

Warranty request is issued and is approved by Service Area Manager.  Parts are then ordered.  Part is ordered late because again, busy.  So, dealership keeps blaming the OEM because that is a typical and easy way to do it.

 

Four weeks and the radiator finally arrives, but is damaged.  The part needs re-ordered and the damaged part needs to be RMA'd because it was issued to your VIN.  Again, more time.

 

You hit your magical 30 days and decide to be a dick and not work on anything with the dealer or OEM and call an attorney.

 

Shit stops.  Everything stops.  The OEM will hold on the bike as their legal team will address the situation.  They may reach out and give you details like the part was readily available and the dealership took a long time to address the warranty to them and did not order the part until set time.  Once it was ordered, it did in fact arrive damaged, but the RMA was issued later and part re-ordered later.

 

You will not get LL on that thing.  You will get the parts and labor probably covered if warranty related.  You may even get some swag for the bullshit you have endured.  That's different and based on the situation.

 

The dealership did not do what they were supposed to do.  Now maybe you can claim LL and have your attorney go after the OEM and dealership.  But if it is shown that the dealership ordered it late, submitted the warranty request several days to weeks after you came in, etc.  There is no issue on the OEM side.  SAMs visit monthly usually and would catch this inside 30 days or at the end, etc.  Then it would be addressed.  But, the issue is whether or not the bike is in service a long period of time with no swift resolution.

 

If that swiftness is a result of drug feet in the dealership, it is not a manufacturer issue...  Again, staying on top of your bike, checking resources like calling another dealer to see if you can order a radiator and finding out it is available and then going to the dealership and calling bullshit, etc are going to be things you need to do.

 

You can also use the OEM as a way to get shit done sooner.  Calling and complaining will net a check.  Once they check and find out the dealership didn't do what they should have, you will get the ball rolling faster.

 

Too often, what happens is the customer flies off the handle, bitches and blows up on the OEM and acts like an ass.  Acting professional gets better results.  Now, if it is legit and warranted to blow up, you should do that.  But calm and educated tends to net better and more positive results...

 

But what do I know?

[Moto-Brian]

What I am getting at on the 30 day deal is that there is typically an allowance for repair with the 30 days.  Again, there is a lot of issue with the dealership at times and this one time allowance affords the OEM to step in and control it.

 

 

When it is for multiple issues, there typically is more of a case.  Reason being is that the OEM gets involved a lot sooner.  Or the customer is addressing Customer Service with the OEM and the issue becomes urgent.  OEMs DO NOT want buy backs.  They are something that is avoided at all costs and they try and remedy the situation as easily and QUICKLY as possible.  I guess that is viewed as draggin feet to some...

[Tpoppa]

Again, you are generalizing, man.  Stop giving out bullshit answers.  

 

There are issues that can arise to keep a bike in service for 30 days.  If a dealership drags their feet and does not issue warranty request to the OEM, how the fuck is the OEM responsible?  You got so many light facts that it is driving me crazy.  Do us all a favor and get exacts before you spew falsehoods, please...

 

Sceario:

 

Dealer takes in your bike that has a radiator issue.  They note that it SHOULD be covered under warranty as in the end, the OEM will make the final decision.

 

Three weeks go by and you call and follow up, but the reality is that the dealership is busy and the Service Manager forgot to order the part and submit the warranty request.  3 weeks.  Hell, make it two weeks.  Whatever.

 

Warranty request is issued and is approved by Service Area Manager.  Parts are then ordered.  Part is ordered late because again, busy.  So, dealership keeps blaming the OEM because that is a typical and easy way to do it.

 

Four weeks and the radiator finally arrives, but is damaged.  The part needs re-ordered and the damaged part needs to be RMA'd because it was issued to your VIN.  Again, more time.

 

You hit your magical 30 days and decide to be a dick and not work on anything with the dealer or OEM and call an attorney.

 

Shit stops.  Everything stops.  The OEM will hold on the bike as their legal team will address the situation.  They may reach out and give you details like the part was readily available and the dealership took a long time to address the warranty to them and did not order the part until set time.  Once it was ordered, it did in fact arrive damaged, but the RMA was issued later and part re-ordered later.

 

You will not get LL on that thing.  You will get the parts and labor probably covered if warranty related.  You may even get some swag for the bullshit you have endured.  That's different and based on the situation.

 

The dealership did not do what they were supposed to do.  Now maybe you can claim LL and have your attorney go after the OEM and dealership.  But if it is shown that the dealership ordered it late, submitted the warranty request several days to weeks after you came in, etc.  There is no issue on the OEM side.  SAMs visit monthly usually and would catch this inside 30 days or at the end, etc.  Then it would be addressed.  But, the issue is whether or not the bike is in service a long period of time with no swift resolution.

 

If that swiftness is a result of drug feet in the dealership, it is not a manufacturer issue...  Again, staying on top of your bike, checking resources like calling another dealer to see if you can order a radiator and finding out it is available and then going to the dealership and calling bullshit, etc are going to be things you need to do.

 

You can also use the OEM as a way to get shit done sooner.  Calling and complaining will net a check.  Once they check and find out the dealership didn't do what they should have, you will get the ball rolling faster.

 

Too often, what happens is the customer flies off the handle, bitches and blows up on the OEM and acts like an ass.  Acting professional gets better results.  Now, if it is legit and warranted to blow up, you should do that.  But calm and educated tends to net better and more positive results...

 

But what do I know?

 

Jesus-titty-fucking-Christ

 

Let me take a stab...you represent an OEM in some capacity...KTM, Ducati, Vespa, Hyosung or something.  You believe yourself to be the authority on all things motorcycle.  You think that the OEM is always doing the right thing...and the dumbfuck consumers and lawyers are just there to complicate things.  On top of that you're kind of a dick...amiclose?

 

You have my personal invitation to disagree with the law all you want:

 

Summary of Ohio Lemon Law

The following are the key aspects of the OH lemon law. In order for your vehicle to qualify under the lemon law, the following conditions must be met:

• Vehicles covered include passenger vehicles and noncommercial motor vehicles, motor homes (except cooking and sleeping facilities), manufactured homes, and recreational vehicles, but excluding vehicles of government entities and vehicles of business or commercial enterprises registering 3 or more motor vehicles.

• In order to qualify, a vehicle must have had a minimum of 3 repair attempts for same defect, 8 total repair attempts, 1 attempt to repair condition likely to cause death or serious bodily injury, or out of service 30 or more calendar days

-----------------

 

I had a good dealer, and a good relationship with that dealer.  Said dealer could not fix an issue due to a design flaw.  The dealer actually suggested that I call the OEM to log service cases, which I did multiple times.  The OEM was not willing to do a damn thing until a lawyer got involved and forced them too.  The dealer's service manager (hush hush) actually suggested the Lemon Law.  I was well beyond 30 days out of service.  The dealer wouldn't or couldn't speak with me once the legal stuff was underway (not a surprise).  The OEM took their sweet time every step of the way.  I finally got a settlement I was happy with.  It all unfolded pretty much the way the attorney said it would.   

 

But, I must be lying and giving more bullshit answers, right?

[cOoTeR]

Well I got the call today saying they finished. Right about at 30 days to the hour since I dropped it off. Depending on how theyact tomorrow will determine if I try to seek compensation.

[Moto-Brian]

Jesus-titty-fucking-Christ

 

Let me take a stab...you represent an OEM in some capacity...KTM, Ducati, Vespa, Hyosung or something.  You believe yourself to be the authority on all things motorcycle.  You think that the OEM is always doing the right thing...and the dumbfuck consumers and lawyers are just there to complicate things.  On top of that you're kind of a dick...amiclose?

 

You have my personal invitation to disagree with the law all you want:

 

Summary of Ohio Lemon Law

The following are the key aspects of the OH lemon law. In order for your vehicle to qualify under the lemon law, the following conditions must be met:

• Vehicles covered include passenger vehicles and noncommercial motor vehicles, motor homes (except cooking and sleeping facilities), manufactured homes, and recreational vehicles, but excluding vehicles of government entities and vehicles of business or commercial enterprises registering 3 or more motor vehicles.

• In order to qualify, a vehicle must have had a minimum of 3 repair attempts for same defect, 8 total repair attempts, 1 attempt to repair condition likely to cause death or serious bodily injury, or out of service 30 or more calendar days

-----------------

 

I had a good dealer, and a good relationship with that dealer.  Said dealer could not fix an issue due to a design flaw.  The dealer actually suggested that I call the OEM to log service cases, which I did multiple times.  The OEM was not willing to do a damn thing until a lawyer got involved and forced them too.  The dealer's service manager (hush hush) actually suggested the Lemon Law.  I was well beyond 30 days out of service.  The dealer wouldn't or couldn't speak with me once the legal stuff was underway (not a surprise).  The OEM took their sweet time every step of the way.  I finally got a settlement I was happy with.  It all unfolded pretty much the way the attorney said it would.   

 

But, I must be lying and giving more bullshit answers, right?

Dude, I said before and maybe I need a chalk board with stick figures. Dunno. I said you may have had a situation where it was a deal where the OEM drags it's feet.

You got the lawyer involved and what did I say? That causes a halt. You didn't supply what the issue was, what the dealer did to try and help nor what number of times you communicated with the OEM.

Yes, shit happens. Yes, some companies are better than others. Some worse.

The 30 day deal isn't as you stated where it is in and the scenario I described would never go LL. if the services manager suggested LL, they were having issues. Nuff said. I get it.

But, most the time in the manufacturers I've worked with and worked for have all made strides to help the customer get on the road as quickly as possible. But, you had a bad experience so, it makes you an expert in saying OEMs try and fuck people. Or that OEMs just always drag their feet. You're dead wrong.

Again, a great company cannot satisfy every customer. That's just the way business goes.

Also, remember on the 30 day deal. There is usually an opportunity to rectify. Of that has not been given to the OEM, doubt it will be accepted into LL. your deal was apparently different as it sounds like they tried several times.

Oh yeah, I am a dick. Not just kinda.

[madcat6183]

Dude, I said before and maybe I need a chalk board with stick figures. Dunno. I said you may have had a situation where it was a deal where the OEM drags it's feet.

You got the lawyer involved and what did I say? That causes a halt. You didn't supply what the issue was, what the dealer did to try and help nor what number of times you communicated with the OEM.

Yes, shit happens. Yes, some companies are better than others. Some worse.

The 30 day deal isn't as you stated where it is in and the scenario I described would never go LL. if the services manager suggested LL, they were having issues. Nuff said. I get it.

But, most the time in the manufacturers I've worked with and worked for have all made strides to help the customer get on the road as quickly as possible. But, you had a bad experience so, it makes you an expert in saying OEMs try and fuck people. Or that OEMs just always drag their feet. You're dead wrong.

Again, a great company cannot satisfy every customer. That's just the way business goes.

Also, remember on the 30 day deal. There is usually an opportunity to rectify. Of that has not been given to the OEM, doubt it will be accepted into LL. your deal was apparently different as it sounds like they tried several times.

Oh yeah, I am a dick. Not just kinda.

But remember, you're our dick, and we love you    Full homo.  Man I miss you, I need to get back to the track bad.

[Tpoppa]

You got the lawyer involved and what did I say? That causes a halt.

So you're disagreeing...wait...now you're agreeing... wait, what?  This was the point, LL is a slow moving legal process.  In my case, the lawyer actually got it moving faster.

 

But, most the time in the manufacturers I've worked with and worked for have all made strides to help the customer get on the road as quickly as possible. But, you had a bad experience so, it makes you an expert in saying OEMs try and fuck people.

 

It did not make me an expert.  It gave me cause to hire an expert because the OEM was basically shitting the bed.

 

So the OEMs think the OEMs are doing a great job?

 

I'm sure some do, but not the one I was forced to deal with.

 

You are welcome to PM me if you feel the need to continue this douchebaggery.

[jester3681]

Back to the initial question.  When I worked at Nissan, we handled several cars that ended up being bought back.  Two that come to mind had consistent issues, in both cases unidentifiable by even the factory engineer.  In one case, at the request of the factory we just threw parts at a car hoping to fix it by accident.  Both cases had numerous trips to the service department that were often for one week or more.

 

That said, I had countless times where a car was in the service area for an extended period of time waiting on parts.  Many times, if a part is found to be generally defective or can't live up to stresses, it will be redesigned.  You order the part during the redesign period, you wait for the new part.  And think of how long development can take.  In the case of Nissan, customers would be provided alternate transportation.  The reality of life is your bike is a toy, and the toy store isn't obligated to provide you a new toy while they fix your old one.  Sucks, but it's true.  If your motorcycle is your only form of transport, I'm sorry you made a poor decision along those lines.

 

To qualify a car as a "lemon," at least in Ohio, it either needs to have multiple unsuccessful attempts to fix a single problem, or multiple problems that are outside the realm of what a normal person would consider "standard."  In your case, one issue, regardless of how long it has been in the shop, is likely not going to qualify you for a lemon.

 

But, by all means, hire a lawyer, pay him a ton of money, and you *might* get your bike bought back or replaced.  By the time you're done with legal fees, you might have enough to buy a Razor scooter.  You can do mean tricks on a Razor.

[Moto-Brian]

So you're disagreeing...wait...now you're agreeing... wait, what?  This was the point, LL is a slow moving legal process.  In my case, the lawyer actually got it moving faster.

 

 

It did not make me an expert.  It gave me cause to hire an expert because the OEM was basically shitting the bed.

 

So the OEMs think the OEMs are doing a great job?

 

I'm sure some do, but not the one I was forced to deal with.

 

You are welcome to PM me if you feel the need to continue this douchebaggery.

 

 

Trust me, I get it.  You can be a wise ass and say "OEMs think OEMs do a good job" or you can be intelligent and read carefully what I've stated.  The OEMs do NOT want to drag it on no matter what a disgruntle customer thinks.  Again, you had a set experience and even though apparently you cannot share any details, we have no idea how bad it was.  So, it is what it is.

 

But I can tell you that OEMs do a solid job in terms of customer service.  Again, broken record - some better, some worse.  Get over it, bro.  You had a bad experience.  I am sure like the KX450 example I gave is an example of a pretty thrilled customer...

 

Anyways, let's agree to disagree.  My head is bleeding from banging against the wall...  I need a drink.

[Moto-Brian]

Back to the initial question.  When I worked at Nissan, we handled several cars that ended up being bought back.  Two that come to mind had consistent issues, in both cases unidentifiable by even the factory engineer.  In one case, at the request of the factory we just threw parts at a car hoping to fix it by accident.  Both cases had numerous trips to the service department that were often for one week or more.

 

That said, I had countless times where a car was in the service area for an extended period of time waiting on parts.  Many times, if a part is found to be generally defective or can't live up to stresses, it will be redesigned.  You order the part during the redesign period, you wait for the new part.  And think of how long development can take.  In the case of Nissan, customers would be provided alternate transportation.  The reality of life is your bike is a toy, and the toy store isn't obligated to provide you a new toy while they fix your old one.  Sucks, but it's true.  If your motorcycle is your only form of transport, I'm sorry you made a poor decision along those lines.

 

To qualify a car as a "lemon," at least in Ohio, it either needs to have multiple unsuccessful attempts to fix a single problem, or multiple problems that are outside the realm of what a normal person would consider "standard."  In your case, one issue, regardless of how long it has been in the shop, is likely not going to qualify you for a lemon.

 

But, by all means, hire a lawyer, pay him a ton of money, and you *might* get your bike bought back or replaced.  By the time you're done with legal fees, you might have enough to buy a Razor scooter.  You can do mean tricks on a Razor.

 

 

Dude, you're wasting your breath...  I agree 100% and you bring up even more examples of things that can occur.  But, Nissan trying to get the unit fixed in your example os apparently them draggin feet.