Water Softeners?

[ScubaCinci]

I've been trying to look at water softeners for our new house. We had the water tested and the hardness = 10 the TDS = 276 and no iron or copper detected. Looking around the interwebs, there's a dizzying array of choices, many with conflicting information. Some say you can't drink the water, some say you can (I'm siding with the 'can' camp). Some swear salt-free softeners are crap and others say it's the best thing since sliced bread. My brother-in-law has one and he likes it but he's not hard to please. Honestly, I haven't been able to make a good determination what is what.

This site seems to have pretty good information and relatively unbiased but who can tell these days. Kinetico is supposed to be good but I heard they are a little overpriced. Anyone have any expertise in this area?

 

[blue03636]

I've been trying to look at water softeners for our new house. We had the water tested and the hardness = 10 the TDS = 276 and no iron or copper detected. Looking around the interwebs, there's a dizzying array of choices, many with conflicting information. Some say you can't drink the water, some say you can (I'm siding with the 'can' camp). Some swear salt-free softeners are crap and others say it's the best thing since sliced bread. My brother-in-law has one and he likes it but he's not hard to please. Honestly, I haven't been able to make a good determination what is what.

This site seems to have pretty good information and relatively unbiased but who can tell these days. Kinetico is supposed to be good but I heard they are a little overpriced. Anyone have any expertise in this area?

 

Lucky, ours is 20 without the softener.

[JohnG]

There's four basic softener/treatment companies that you can look into.  Hague, Kinetico, Aqua Systems, and Culligan.  Last time I did this, Culligan was the most expensive...

 

Our system is an old Hague and it's on it's last legs.  Our hardness is 28 and the iron is up there also at 4.5.  This means that we not only get a softener system but an Iron filter component is recommended.  All together, quotes for our house to replace the Hague are $3000 and up.  Yeah, Merry freakin Christmas to me...

 

On a side note, a softener system has little to do with the "drinkability" of your water.  Whether or not you drink it will be based on whether or not you like the taste of well water and whether or not your water is safe to drink.  As for the later, here's a handy link you may want to spend some time on:

 

http://www.odh.ohio.gov/odhprograms/eh/water/PrivateWaterSystems/quality.aspx

 

Here's another good one:

 

http://epa.ohio.gov/Portals/0/general%20pdfs/HowWellDoYouKnowYourWaterWell.pdf

 

and last but not least, if you're in Franklin County:

 

http://www.myfcph.org/wqw.php

 

Good luck.  Reading and comprehending this shit will give you a migraine for sure...

[JohnG]

Ahh...  Cincy, right?  Here's Hamilton County:

 

http://www.hamiltoncountyhealth.org/en/permits_licensing_inspections/water_quality/private_water_systems.html

[ScubaCinci]

Ha, thanks. There's a lot of information and misinformation out there. FWIW, the drinkability concern from people is more around the amount of sodium in the water after treatment but there's more sodium in a slice of bread than in 1qt of treated water.

[madcat6183]

JohnG pointed out some good info, a softner will not help with drinkability, reverse osmosis, or a whole house filter MAY help with that, depending on the issue.

 

We've run Culligans back home in all 3 houses my parents have owned.  1 was city water, 1 was a private pump house(well for whole subdivision), and now 1 for their private well.  For the current setup they have a private well that is super hard(haha) and also contains a ton of sediment.  So they also have a whole house water filter right after their pressure tank.  It might be before the tank, I forget.  But it is before the softner and changes filters monthly.

 

For them Culligan is local to Mansfield, they service everything, install it, and deliver salt.  Will even take it downstairs if dad wants them to, but I usually come home and do it, or he does.  Price wasn't an issue for them so I doubt they even looked at anything else.  It's a super basic system, time and on demand but NOT digital like mine.  Just a basic timer setup and on demand.  They turned the regen cycle down a lot when I left, since just 2 of them now and they probably use 1 hot water tank a week.  Plus they have geothermal so that offsets some of the hot water usage.

 

A lot of the drinkability has to do with the salt used in the softner.  Dad uses the natural solar salt, leaves a little salty taste to the water, but 100% drinkable.  Also they have no sulfur issues which is what the rotten egg smell is, usually closer to MI, or in the deep country close to fracking, mining, or oil/gas wells.  A softner will NOT fix this jsut FYI.

 

I have city water and run a Waterboss from Home Depot, it's based out of a building 2 miles from my house and made in the US so figured why not.  It's digital, super easy to install, comes with testing strips, and instructions how to set the thing up.  I use Water Saver II salt from Kroger and it reduces the nasty taste I find city water to have big time.  Removes rust, chlorine, and all that jazz, and makes tap water very drinkable.  I did however buy the Solar Salt last month and it made a huge difference in drinkability, as in I couldn't drink the tap water anymore, only the filtered from the fridge.

 

I paid 400 bucks, and am 100% happy with the results.  It made a HUGE difference in the red deposits my water was leaving on the showers, faucets, etc. and made the water super soft.  Used to get uber dry skin and itch during the winter, even with city water, with the softner it is no longer.  I will say I think I could have set it a tad more active and used a little more softning because the water is good, but I would have liked a little more soap suds running down my buttcrack.  Craig likes it when that happens, so it makes him happy.

 

I paid some guy 100 bucks to install it, looking back I could have done it in an hour, just didn't want to.  I highly recommend one, and have never had any issues drinking water with them, except at my parents but like i said, it's drinkable, just has a tad of salt taste, but just a tad. 

 

FWIW my dad worked in the water industry for 35 years, everything from this stuff to designing sewers for cities and water plants, so I kind of know a lot by default.  Not like someone who does it for a living obviously, but I could go on all day about this topic.

 

We are going through this with our cottage in MI right now, private well, sulfur so bad you can't shower, or turn the faucet on.  Guess dad has a "guy" that can get what we need at cost and believe it's being taken care of next week or in Jan.  I forget.    We will however be using bottled water for drinking up there because with a little one I don't trust the water.

[madcat6183]

Also, I did the inhouse financing for Kinetico with a company I worked with out of college, for their Columbus office, they are way overpriced, way.  You're paying for their "services" and expertise, but trust me, not worth it.  Culligan was way cheaper around Cbus than Kinetico.

 

I will however admit, Kinetico works.  Just NEVER under any circumstance let one of the people from HD or whatever run a water test or set an apt at your house.  They will NEVER leave, I actually had to threaten the guy and tell him I was going to have my dog attack him because he would not leave when I somehow got roped into one of those.  Talk about awkward, dude called his boss 4 times, to get a lower and lower price for their water softner, and I think the lowest was like 2,500, for a city water softner.  I explained he was insane and needed to leave, he wouldn't leave.  I was getting aggitated, dog was getting aggitated, still wouldn't leave.  Finally dog had enough and I had too, told him to get out or I was letting my dog get him and calling the police to press harrasment charges etc..

 

He left. 

 

My dog isn't nice.

[ScubaCinci]

Thanks for the input guys. My goal for the water softener is more for mitigating buildup in pipes, hot water heaters, etc and the benefits for the washer, shower, etc.

 

My house is gonna be huge, like 6000 sq ft and have 2 water heaters even though there'll only be 2 of us living there full time (for now, long story) so I'mnot sure what size I would need or if I need 2 of them.

[madcat6183]

You'll still be fine with 1 just run it off the main line in BEFORE either water heater etc.  Just stock up on salt and set the regen pretty low if just 2 of you.  You can always up the regen when the kids or anyone comes back, but even then it will automatically cycle when needed so really no thinking.  Actually mine I can even tell how many more tanks it has until it just does a full regen, which also acts as a cleaning.

 

6K sq ft?  You building a pole barn and putting a house in the front or top of it?  Cuz that would be sick.  Or just moving to some famous dudes house via a good Repo auction lol.

 

And basically you are buying yours for what I bought mine for, easier on clothes, pipes, water heaters, etc.  If I had geothermal were the water is used for HVAC purposes I probably would have gotten one that is the t*ts and spent serious coin so not to wear out any seals or gaskets or pipes faster than needed.  But even for my parents they went 15yrs before needing a new master unit for their geothermal.  Man I wish I had that in my house.

 

When we build or buy a new one, will have Geothermal in it right away. 

[ScubaCinci]

6K sq ft?  You building a pole barn and putting a house in the front or top of it?  Cuz that would be sick.  Or just moving to some famous dudes house via a good Repo auction lol.

Nope, just a party house Should be ready in about a month!

[madcat6183]

Dude holy shiat, you are officially baller status. 

[Helmutt]

Damn Joe! Thats one big homestead. You got a monster underground drug cartel kickin into overdrive, or is you making edumicated money all legal like?

[ohiomike]

Our Hague works great for us.  We don;t use salt, instead its potassium chloride to help with the salt.  Think about the amount of water you consume daily at home and it can be quite a bit of extra salt going into your body.  

[ScubaCinci]

Damn Joe! Thats one big homestead. You got a monster underground drug cartel kickin into overdrive, or is you making edumicated money all legal like?

 

Believe it or not, the wife brings home the bacon...I just fry it up Y'all can come visit soon!

 

Our Hague works great for us.  We don;t use salt, instead its potassium chloride to help with the salt.  Think about the amount of water you consume daily at home and it can be quite a bit of extra salt going into your body.  

 

Yeah, I've been reading a bit about that...also seems it's 3-5 times more expensive? Any other pros/cons with KCl?

[ohiomike]

The pot chl. goes for about $25 a bag at Krogers here locally.  It is expensive and can be hard to find.  We just want to cut down out salt intake and with the Hague it will use either salt or non salt stuff, just needs to be set whichever way you are going.  They claim by using the pot. chl. you are going to use less.  For my wife and I we go through 3 bags every 4 months or so.  Can't really compare this to how much salt we would use, we have always used the non salt stuff with the Hague.  In Michigan we first had a Culligan but it could not get the rust and hard water down enough.  Then we went with a Kenmore, their top of the line.  The culligan recharged according to the times we had it set to, but the Kenmore only re charged when needed, so the amount of salt used went down, and so did our power consumption.  When we moved here there was no softener.  I had to replace a shower fixture and it broke in half because of the hard water buildup inside of it.  Since getting a softener our water is crystal clear with no hardwater problems and its darned near spot free when we wash the bikes.  Seems like it cost us around $1800 installed.

[madcat6183]

I would assume the salt absorbed by the body to be so miniscule you wouldn't tell a difference in any testing done.  If my wife doesn't have an issue with it, it can't be that bad for you, or there isn't enough studies done to prove that it has any effect on sodium intake.  And she is a nut about that specific topic being in the healthcare field.

 

But I would assume you can read some stuff out there to see what people think about that too, just doubt it's a widely researched topic to get good info about. 

[ScubaCinci]

I'm also considering a salt-free water conditioning system as offered by Pelican and US Water Systems. Doesn't soften the water per se but prevents scale build up and there's less maintenance/ongoing cost. ASU did an interesting study on them. My brother-in-law is pretty happy with his Pelican system.

 

EDIT

As I see it, the downsides to salt systems are:

>not good for the environment

>wastes water

>cost/labor with salt replenishment

>salt in water (minor)

>personally, I'm not a fan of the slick feeling in the shower. I still feel dirty or un-rinsed.

 

Good points are:

>zero scale buildup in pipes/appliances

>saves on soap/detergent which is better for the environment

>spot free dishes, cleaner laundry

Edited December 12, 2013 by ScubaCinci

[ScubaCinci]

The mayo clinic doesn't see a big issue with the amount of salt the softened water contains... http://www.mayoclinic.com/health/sodium/AN00317

[madcat6183]

The mayo clinic doesn't see a big issue with the amount of salt the softened water contains... http://www.mayoclinic.com/health/sodium/AN00317

Actually was just going to post this info, and Mayoclinic is pretty legit and unbias info.    Reading it now though because now I am intrigued.  Dangit, I should try to do at least an hour of work before I get on OR

[blue03636]

These are the same numbers I have seen. That little wouldn't be an issue as you typically get over 10 times that in most food.

[madcat6183]

These are the same numbers I have seen. That little wouldn't be an issue as you typically get over 10 times that in most food.

What about the loads of splurge you take on any given weekend from Jbot and the crew?  How does that do with your sodium intake? 

[blue03636]

What about the loads of splurge you take on any given weekend from Jbot and the crew?  How does that do with your sodium intake? 

 

I just use that for skin and hair conditioner.

[ScubaCinci]

Dangit, I should try to do at least an hour of work before I get on OR

Yeah, 2 hours in an I haven't done a damn thing

[CBBaron]

If you are concerned about the sodium or taste of the water after a water softener consider adding a RO system in the kitchen.

These remove much of the sodium, chlorine and other impurities from the water and are a convenient way to provide taste free water.

We added one when we installed the water softener about 10 years ago. I don't care for the taste of chlorine in the city water so I really like the RO system.

 

Craig

[ScubaCinci]

I was reading quite a bit about RO systems. There are some drawbacks to those as well. Since they rid the water of minerals, like distilled water, they can have a leeching effect in the body if consumed over a long period of time. They also make the water acidic which can be problematic as well. I'm ok with a carbon filtration system alongside whatever I go with.