T Rex Posted April 8, 2006 Report Share Posted April 8, 2006 How many people are Native Americans on this board? The ones that are not need to shut the hell up. Have any of you ever tried to get a visa? Have any of you ever tried to help someone get a visa? Probably not, you have NO idea how hard it is to obtain a green card to legally work and live in the United States of America. Not only do you have to have someone sponsor you, aka co-signer, so if they fuck up its your ass too, but you have to pay immense fee's. You are talking about people that make roughly 7 USD a week trying to come to America, home of the free, give us your hungery give us your poor, and ask them to pay some outrageous price for a card that says you have to go back in a few months/years. You all have no idea the things these people go through to work at places like Arby's, Donatos, McDonalds, and Wendy's, for 7 maybe 8 dollars an hour. I don't know about any of you, but I have been a manager at 2 of the restaraunts listed and I would rather hire an illegal for 7 or 8 bucks an hour instead of some whiney little bitch high schooler who really doesn't need a job or its their parents wonderful idea to send them my way so they can get paid to sit on their ass and to a shitty job. I challenge you all to look into obtaining a visa or green card to gain access to the United States. Some take their liberties for granted and I am ashamed to call myself an American along side you. Do you really want to work some of these jobs that these people are doing? I certainly don't, however, I do to an extent. If they made a sweep of the all the buisness that have illegals working for them, you would be suprised at how hard up you would be for a sandwich. We are so scared of people coming into the USA, why do we let all of our GOOD jobs go to other countries? How come no one is concerned with that? How come there isn't IMPORTANT legislation that will help out good old fashioned American buisness? Someone has pulled a curtain over your eyes. Wake up and smell the mother fucking coffee. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mr.COS Posted April 8, 2006 Author Report Share Posted April 8, 2006 ________________________________________ That's such a stupid argument. I'm tired of hearing it. I guess Africa was the cradle of civilization. All humans came from Africa so we should all go back there. You know if we hadn't taken America, you know what language would be spoken on this continent? German. Because I really doubt that bows and arrows would have taken down a Panzer tank. Every piece of land on this planet has been fought for and paid for in blood. Our fore fathers paid for this land, and I'll be damned if I'm going to give it away to some illegal border jumpers. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lustalbert Posted April 8, 2006 Report Share Posted April 8, 2006 For anyone reading through and may have forgotten: If you enter this country illegaly, you are a criminal. You deserve no rights that are aforded to our citizens. None. Get out. Give us you poor, tired, hungry... If they come here legally and go throught the process. Think there is a reason the process is dificult? Because we want to make sure the people coming in legally wont just turn into leeches on the system. For grins, anyone know the requirements or imigrating to mexico? The make ours look like a freebie. Wonder why mexico is helping so many people try to get in the us? Anyone know mexicos 2nd bigest national income, oil being #1? To the tune of 63 Billion a year...... People working in the US and sending the money back to mexico. Eric: what figures did you pull for unemployment being up? Last I checked, 3-4% unmployment is the standard of everyone who wants a job, has one. The rest are mostly permenant welfare recipiants, and people transitioning jobs. http://forecasts.org/unemploy.htm http://jfs.ohio.gov/releases/unemp/UnempPressRelease.htm Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Balian Posted April 8, 2006 Report Share Posted April 8, 2006 I am down for shooting this bill down also. Live in TX for a few years and that will change your mind on this subject. I don't have a problem with the legal immigrant workers, but for those who are here illegally, well that is a different story. I say give them all about 6 months to get on the right track or get the hell out. And before you ask if I have ever helped anyone get a green card, yes I have. My exgf was from Poland and she got her citizenship here in OH..It didn't take her long at all to get it, so I don't want to hear from anyone that it takes years! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
copperhead Posted April 8, 2006 Report Share Posted April 8, 2006 Another thing Eric. When spouting off about following party lines, this is an issue that has both parties pretty well split, so I don't want to hear it. I noticed the other day that Rudy Guiliani is considering running under the GOP for president. I was liking that idea until I found out he is pro gun control (which I should have realized, he is from NY). That alone is reason enough for me to vote against him. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
El Karacho1647545492 Posted April 8, 2006 Report Share Posted April 8, 2006 How many people are Native Americans on this board? The ones that are not need to shut the hell up. Have any of you ever tried to get a visa? Have any of you ever tried to help someone get a visa? Probably not, you have NO idea how hard it is to obtain a green card to legally work and live in the United States of America. Not only do you have to have someone sponsor you, aka co-signer, so if they fuck up its your ass too, but you have to pay immense fee's. You are talking about people that make roughly 7 USD a week trying to come to America, home of the free, give us your hungery give us your poor, and ask them to pay some outrageous price for a card that says you have to go back in a few months/years. You all have no idea the things these people go through to work at places like Arby's, Donatos, McDonalds, and Wendy's, for 7 maybe 8 dollars an hour. I don't know about any of you, but I have been a manager at 2 of the restaraunts listed and I would rather hire an illegal for 7 or 8 bucks an hour instead of some whiney little bitch high schooler who really doesn't need a job or its their parents wonderful idea to send them my way so they can get paid to sit on their ass and to a shitty job. I challenge you all to look into obtaining a visa or green card to gain access to the United States. Some take their liberties for granted and I am ashamed to call myself an American along side you. Do you really want to work some of these jobs that these people are doing? I certainly don't, however, I do to an extent. If they made a sweep of the all the buisness that have illegals working for them, you would be suprised at how hard up you would be for a sandwich. We are so scared of people coming into the USA, why do we let all of our GOOD jobs go to other countries? How come no one is concerned with that? How come there isn't IMPORTANT legislation that will help out good old fashioned American buisness? Someone has pulled a curtain over your eyes. Wake up and smell the mother fucking coffee. My dad came here from Portugal at the age of 15, legally. He worked his fucking ass off at Sears, a few mechanic shops, and paper routes to pay for school at UConn, which he entered at the age of 16 because his schooling was so far ahead of everyone else's in high school. So after having one year to learn English, he was in college and working his ass off studying and making money. My mom put him through grad school, and now he's become not only a successful employee of Nationwide, but a successful entrepreneur and most importantly an amazing father. And he did it all in this horrible system you speak so hatefully about. So who has had the curtain pulled over his eyes? You believe everything the liberal media tells you. I take everything I read or hear, both in the media or in my college classes with a grain of salt. The "right" thing to do is to do the best for society. Does that mean allowing Mr and Mrs Illegal Imigrant in is okay because their life outside of our great nation sucked? I'm a fairly compassionate person. I do some charity work--not a particularly remarkable amount for a college student, but some. I want to help the well being of society. However, those that are a pestilence; those that unrighteously subsist of the welfare of those who have worked for it are not welcome in my society. I refuse to work so that someone can go to school paid for by the tax on every dollar that I earn. I refuse to donate my time, money, blood and sweat to ease the pain and suffering of those who hurt my society. Maybe I'm a hateful being, but if we opened our borders, do you know what would happen? Do you realize the economic strain the U.S. has suffered simply as a result of NAFTA? You need to do some research before you make claims that both alienate yourself and also attack those who know what they're talking about. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Science Abuse Posted April 8, 2006 Report Share Posted April 8, 2006 That alone is reason enough for me to vote against him. In the primaries, maybe. If it comes down to Hilliary and Rudy for president, and Hilliary waves an automatic weapon in the air at all of her rallies, will you vote for her? I'd laugh and applaud, all the way to the polls where I'd vote for Rudy. Please Mike, dont become a single issue voter. Alot of people voted for "the sanctity of human life", and what did they get? Heaps and heaps of corpses. They thought they voted against abortion, but honnestly what has anyone done to end that? Focus on what some one will do for the country on a broad scale. Al, look at comparitive unemployment rates. You can't laud taking a step forward when you've taken 5 steps back. And of those few percent, how many of them are poepl going back into the pay scale that they were laid off from? You'll be seeing alot of auto workers getting laid off from $50K/yr jobs, and taking $25K/yr jobs to get by, simply because there's no other option. The united states is hurting for living wage jobs, period. The only thing keeping our economy going is credit, and that is scary, there's no other word for it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
copperhead Posted April 8, 2006 Report Share Posted April 8, 2006 In the primaries, maybe. If it comes down to Hilliary and Rudy for president, and Hilliary waves an automatic weapon in the air at all of her rallies, will you vote for her? I'd laugh and applaud, all the way to the polls where I'd vote for Rudy. Please Mike, dont become a single issue voter. Alot of people voted for "the sanctity of human life", and what did they get? Heaps and heaps of corpses. They thought they voted against abortion, but honnestly what has anyone done to end that? Focus on what some one will do for the country on a broad scale. I'll never vote for hillary. Not even if she was up against a retarded monkey. So in the situation that you mentioned, I'd vote for Rudy and join the NRA to make up for it. I don't give a shit about abortion either way. The ONLY way you'll see me argueing about it either way is if I'm screwing with someone. BTW, South Dakota made a complete ban on abortion, even in rape cases. Al, look at comparitive unemployment rates. You can't laud taking a step forward when you've taken 5 steps back. And of those few percent, how many of them are poepl going back into the pay scale that they were laid off from? You'll be seeing alot of auto workers getting laid off from $50K/yr jobs, and taking $25K/yr jobs to get by, simply because there's no other option. The united states is hurting for living wage jobs, period. The only thing keeping our economy going is credit, and that is scary, there's no other word for it. Living off of credit is stupid, I don't see why it's so hard to live within your means. Nobody has to have a brand new caddy and a $200,000 home with a 70" widescreen plasma tv. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
El Karacho1647545492 Posted April 8, 2006 Report Share Posted April 8, 2006 Living off of credit is stupid, I don't see why it's so hard to live within your means. Nobody has to have a brand new caddy and a $200,000 home with a 70" widescreen plasma tv. I don't think he was referring to John and Jane Taxpayer. I think he was talking about how our economy is heavily owned by China. Just in 2003, China + Hong Kong bought $177 billion dollars of U.S. debt, and are severely undervalueing their own currency in order to produce better than the U.S. economy. Basically, if the current trend continues, we're gonna be slaves to the Chinese in < 50 years. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SlowZ06 Posted April 8, 2006 Report Share Posted April 8, 2006 I refuse to work so that someone can go to school paid for by the tax on every dollar that I earn. I refuse to donate my time, money, blood and sweat to ease the pain and suffering of those who hurt my society. Maybe I'm a hateful being, but if we opened our borders, do you know what would happen? Do you realize the economic strain the U.S. has suffered simply as a result of NAFTA? You need to do some research before you make claims that both alienate yourself and also attack those who know what they're talking about. I'm sure we're all interested in hearing why this bothers you. We already educate and care for the incarcerated (including those who will never be released back into society), pay for groceries and rent for those who do nothing to contribute to their community, and give medical care to those who cannot afford to pay for it.. even though you and I have to. This bill certainly does not benefit the illegals in any way other than permitting them to exist here. Sure, I believe that they should obtain entry legally, through the processes that we have in place; but let's be realistic. We're never going to stop the illegals from swimming here. That being said, what's the problem? I'm sure we'd all be angry if one hit our car, and we had to pay for the damage because they were uninsured. Guess why they are? No license, no social security number, no insurance. What entitles the rest of us to the liberties we have grown accustomed to? The fact we were born here? Just because you were born here doesn't mean you deserve anything. How can you begrudge another human being rights that we expect, when we didn't do anything for it? Some of these people live with ten or more people in a small apartment so they can save money and send what they make home. How many of us have the guts to run off to a country where we don't speak the language, room with people we don't know, and send our money home; all without a military uniform? Point is, these people spend money that is the same color as yours. They buy clothes, cars, food, televisions, and everything that you and I do. Let me review this.... They work jobs that we don't want. They spend money in our communities. We don't provide them with the public assistance that we give away to everyone who doesn't make an attempt to work. We're offering them a chance to legally stay here, although they don't have the same rights as we do. Federal labor laws are out the window, including wage laws, and we're still going to take their tax money... which is the same as yours. I can't believe anyone could believe that we are getting the raw end of this deal. Oh, and about NAFTA... does anyone realize that this didn't make Canada or Mexico rich? Quite the contrary, actually. The agricultural subsidies that our government pays our farmers makes it all but impossible for anyone else to compete price-wise, driving labor wages down, and causing guess what? More people jumping fences and swimming across rivers. I believe the American farmer is entitled to and deserves this help, don't get me wrong; but if the Mexicans made enough money in Mexico, they wouldn't come here. Alas, instead of pumping money into their economy like we're doing in Iraq, we exploit this and pay them nothing. Why? Iraq has something we want. Mexico doesn't. Since our government thinks it's our place to "infuse" America into other countries (only if they have something we can steal) let them do it for everyone. If jobs in India and Mexico didn't pay less, no American companies would be clamoring to send jobs overseas. We have to fix the real problem - that's something we're just not prepared/interested in doing. /end rant Now, for the disclaimer. I don't agree with this bill, not in the least. I think it's another way for our government to keep the poor and disadvantaged that way, and make the rich richer. I also don't agree that we should just open the floodgates and allow everyone in. But I will never condone turning people away who wish us no harm; whose only motivation is to enjoy the livelihood and freedoms that we do because we were fortunate enough to be born here. I'm sure people will disagree with me, and that's okay. You are entitled to an opinion, and so am I. After all, this is America... land of the free. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
T Rex Posted April 8, 2006 Report Share Posted April 8, 2006 My dad came here from Portugal at the age of 15, legally. He worked his fucking ass off at Sears, a few mechanic shops, and paper routes to pay for school at UConn, which he entered at the age of 16 because his schooling was so far ahead of everyone else's in high school. So after having one year to learn English, he was in college and working his ass off studying and making money. My mom put him through grad school, and now he's become not only a successful employee of Nationwide, but a successful entrepreneur and most importantly an amazing father. And he did it all in this horrible system you speak so hatefully about. So who has had the curtain pulled over his eyes? You believe everything the liberal media tells you. I take everything I read or hear, both in the media or in my college classes with a grain of salt. The "right" thing to do is to do the best for society. Does that mean allowing Mr and Mrs Illegal Imigrant in is okay because their life outside of our great nation sucked? I'm a fairly compassionate person. I do some charity work--not a particularly remarkable amount for a college student, but some. I want to help the well being of society. However, those that are a pestilence; those that unrighteously subsist of the welfare of those who have worked for it are not welcome in my society. I refuse to work so that someone can go to school paid for by the tax on every dollar that I earn. I refuse to donate my time, money, blood and sweat to ease the pain and suffering of those who hurt my society. Maybe I'm a hateful being, but if we opened our borders, do you know what would happen? Do you realize the economic strain the U.S. has suffered simply as a result of NAFTA? You need to do some research before you make claims that both alienate yourself and also attack those who know what they're talking about. Before I say this I am in no way shape or form talking down to your father or you. I have the utmost respect for people you can do great things like this. Its because of Immigrants like your father that our country is a great one. Im interested to know how your Dad obtained his Visa? Was it for school purposes? It is a lot easier, through the system, to obtain a visa for school purposes than it is just saying you want a better way of life. Again, Im not saying your Dad "took the easy route" or anything of the sort. I am merely trying to compare ways to get a visa. The United States offers only, and I use the term loosely, 450,000 Green Cards a year. There where nearly 1 million illegal immigrants last year alone. Why try to fight something that is first of all invevitable? and second of all morally wrong? Isn't our country out to fight the "moral" wars? If so this is a great one to fight. NAFTA has nothing to do with immigrants, and you are right it does put a HUGE strain on economy. Again I ask you, why are moving our jobs outside the US? Why not take in these people who seek a better life? I still don't see how this is undermining the social fabric of the US. If anything it only helps the melting pot that is our country. The curtain that has been pulled over your eyes is a way of life that stands still. As an entire World, Nation, State, and Individual we need to be proactive, progressive, and open minded. We have had it pounded into our heads that this is way, the Good 'Ol Days, is the only way to live. I find it astonishing that as a country we think it can/will work. I digress, I have read the bill and there are certain things about it I like and others I dislike. One which will make a few people happier, I back-tax of 2000 dollars will be enforced. Two, realistically these people will not get their green cards for another 4-5 years, which is not an uncommon number for a lot of immigrants to recieve a green card. Last but not least, they have to be able to speak english, something that half the of the current US citizens cannot due properly (not saying that I am not one of them). You all think this is such a horrible crime, I don't understand why. They are seeking a better way of life, I wonder how many of us would be here , legally, if the US had closed its doors earlier in its years. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
copperhead Posted April 8, 2006 Report Share Posted April 8, 2006 Why not take in these people who seek a better life? I still don't see how this is undermining the social fabric of the US. If anything it only helps the melting pot that is our country. The melting pot theory involves everyone mixing together to become a whole group. If a group of people is unwilling to integrate themselves properly into the society, which includes learning and commonly speaking the language, they are segregating themselves, which goes against the melting pot theory completely. It's fine that they want to keep their own identity, many americans will label themselves by where they or their ancestors immigrated from, but the illigals that just come here to send some cash back to their families in Mexico have no desire to integrate. How does this benifit American society, other than laying claims that they just do the jobs nobody else wants to do? I know people that would fight to find a $7/hour job, but since they don't live in a big city and can't afford to move to one, they must not count for anything. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
El Karacho1647545492 Posted April 9, 2006 Report Share Posted April 9, 2006 My dad's older brother had come over 10 years earlier for school purposes, and was married at the time my dad came over, so it was really easy for my dad to get in for a school visa. You all think this is such a horrible crime, I don't understand why. They are seeking a better way of life, I wonder how many of us would be here , legally, if the US had closed its doors earlier in its years. A better way of life; that is the key statement. Who in this world is not seeking a better way of life. Why would the corporate execs at Enron, Worldcom, and Tyco all commit crimes on such a large scale as to hurt the lives of all their employees? Were they not trying to obtain what, in their eyes, appeared to be a better life? Who on this board would not want a little higher salary per year, or to pay a little less tax on that dollar he or she worked so hard to earn? Everyone wants their life to be better. I'm all for the betterment (is that even a word?) of society, but I don't think it should be at a cost to those who rightfully are in the system. I know "rightfully" is a terrible way to put it. I claim righteousness to this country solely because of the life my father has allowed me to achieve. However, does this mean we should supplant all the wealthy Americans with starving Ethiopians? It is a fucked up world, and everyone realizes that global equality could be achieved; however, equity is not the way wealth and earnings are distributed. I may be in an amazing position to get a job because of what my father is done; does that mean I should give up my education and my potential in this world to a Mexican family of twelve because they need it more? I'm not going to do that, and I don't think anyone would give up their life, regardless of how meager or how fruitful, for something less because someone hasn't been as lucky in life. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rally Pat Posted April 9, 2006 Report Share Posted April 9, 2006 I am mostly Cherokee indian, and my great grandma was 100% Cherokee. Wierd thing is, I am also Irish and German. (and Canadian if you want to call that a race) Dear Mexicans, Get out of my country, and give us our jobs back. Yours Truely, Pat "Im gonna fuck up some illegal aliens" Burke Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
chrismindless Posted April 9, 2006 Report Share Posted April 9, 2006 Good thing this week for those that didnt read it ... BOth the Frist bill, the McCain/Kennedy, and the Spectator bills have all been shot down in a demo vs rep votes , winning with at least 60 votes, in some cases 62 votes. Bottomline, there will be a two week break until these bills are picked back up again. ANd if you are like me, and are against illegal immigration, you can DO something now, sign up for http://www.numbersusa.com and help join the fight. I read many replies here from people that support illegal immigration and I want to ask you to be sure that you are clear here: 1. We are not against IMMIGRATION ... this country is built BY IMMIGRANTS, shit, we are all decendants of IMMIGRANTS!!! but, illegal immigrants are different. THere is system, there are rules. If you cross the border to come here seeking a new life, thats great! I applaud that BUT you have to follow the rules. What are you saying to the ppl around the world following the rules and waiting in line? What do you say to our foreign policy in that regard? You have to consider that option, its very important. 2. According to the illegals CAUGHT crossing the border, 12% of them were convicted violent crime criminals not just in Mexico, but here in the US in some cases. That means, of those 11 million illegals, very close to 1 million of them are criminals of some kind ... 3. National security ... period. BOrders need to be sealed up and patrolled more than it is now. 4. There are more than 11 million unemployed AMERICANS in this country. What about them? 5. It is illegal to cross our border illegally meaning that you are breaking the law. What say you to that fact? (hears crickets) ... I thought so. 6. It doesnt matter how you FEEL about the issue, illegal immigration is wrong and isnt fair to the other hardworking immigrants and SOON TO BE IMMIGRANTS ... it just isnt. 7. The illegals that are here now, dont have GREAT LIVES!!! They are mostly working shitty shitty jobs and being overworked and underpaid ... thats just wrong, period. They shouldnt be here, i dont feel bad for them, but being an ECON MAJOR, I can tell you that simply put, if you INCREASE the SUPPLY of workers, the equilibrium point follows the rightward shift of the supply curve and that will follow down the demand curve which doesnt change (not much if any) causing a lower equilibruim wage ... more workers for the same number of jobs means lowballing ... ppl willing to take the job for less just to work ... Dont believe me? Look it up, its basic MacroEconomics 101, i have my books from class, id love to lend you it for abit, might open your eyes. I have no problem quoting ssome of the text for you. its superlate, i just got home, hope i didnt miss anything or misquote. cheers! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
El Karacho1647545492 Posted April 9, 2006 Report Share Posted April 9, 2006 7. The illegals that are here now, dont have GREAT LIVES!!! They are mostly working shitty shitty jobs and being overworked and underpaid ... thats just wrong, period. They shouldnt be here, i dont feel bad for them, but being an ECON MAJOR, I can tell you that simply put, if you INCREASE the SUPPLY of workers, the equilibrium point follows the rightward shift of the supply curve and that will follow down the demand curve which doesnt change (not much if any) causing a lower equilibruim wage ... more workers for the same number of jobs means lowballing ... ppl willing to take the job for less just to work ... Dont believe me? Look it up, its basic MacroEconomics 101, i have my books from class, id love to lend you it for abit, might open your eyes. I have no problem quoting ssome of the text for you. its superlate, i just got home, hope i didnt miss anything or misquote. cheers! I'm not saying you're wrong, but since you're an econ major I would expect you above all else to include "Ceteris paribus" in your statement. Supply-side economics ftw! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SlowZ06 Posted April 9, 2006 Report Share Posted April 9, 2006 3. National security ... period. BOrders need to be sealed up and patrolled more than it is now. 4. There are more than 11 million unemployed AMERICANS in this country. What about them? 5. It is illegal to cross our border illegally meaning that you are breaking the law. What say you to that fact? (hears crickets) ... I thought so. 6. It doesnt matter how you FEEL about the issue, illegal immigration is wrong and isnt fair to the other hardworking immigrants and SOON TO BE IMMIGRANTS ... it just isnt. The following is not meant to belittle you, or your opinion... At what cost should we do this? As an econ major, I'm sure you understand the ramifications of what you've suggested. Spending millions (if not billions) of dollars in order to hire and train many additional Border patrol officers, seeking out and deporting the current illegal immigrants, etc. The government is suggesting that rather than spend a fortune to do it, that we grant them amnesty and collect their tax money; turning them from a "liability" into an "asset". 11 million unemployed Americans. I'm not comfortable with that, nor should you be. However, a fair percentage of those are unemployed by choice. Someone that lost a $40K a year job doesn't want to flip burgers, and I understand that. No one felt bad for me when I was unemployed, and you know what? I still didn't go to work at McDonald's. I collected my unemployment check (which isn't available to illegals, by the way) until I found a suitable position. It is illegal to flick cigarette butts out the window. It's illegal to change lanes without a signal. There's tons of things that are illegal, but we don't have the manpower to enforce the law. Not saying it's right, but what would you do to feed your family? I think I touched on number 6 in my earlier post... you're right. No excuses, that's true. But my point is, we can't stop them. No matter what we do, it isn't going to stop them from coming in. They'll find a way... people are awfully crafty. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
chrismindless Posted April 9, 2006 Report Share Posted April 9, 2006 Ceteris paribus yep, you got me Ive had to use that so much, i have a custom key to insert it in my word processor ... yes you are correct ... Ceteris paribus Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
chrismindless Posted April 9, 2006 Report Share Posted April 9, 2006 At what cost should we do this? As an econ major, I'm sure you understand the ramifications of what you've suggested. Spending millions (if not billions) of dollars in order to hire and train many additional Border patrol officers, seeking out and deporting the current illegal immigrants, etc. The government is suggesting that rather than spend a fortune to do it, that we grant them amnesty and collect their tax money; turning them from a "liability" into an "asset". Yes you are so correct on this one. It is the debate, and for example in a search for an idea on guarding the border, I talked with a few buddies in the army, about why or why not we could use the army to guard the border ... simply put, it would expensive, we would have to buy up land and label and its just a huge mess, so Im very convinced using the army to guard the border is most likely not a feasible option. It could be done, but not at the top of my list. Yes, I see your point. It is very sensible. But I think the expense of deporting and all that jazz is more for the idea and concept of our laws and what we do to those that break them. Its a VERY expensive example we would be making, but it is something that has to be done and something that should of been done many years ago. That is the debate, I've resolved to the point that the illegals need to be removed from our country, but the ramafications to current businesses and people's lives would be enormous ... its a complex issue and I think a proper break down would be needed, but I do not understand this issue well enough to make that break down and until I see a well layed out breakdown, then I really dont think I will change my view point unless new evidence proves that my viewpoint isnt the best choice. (even the phrase best choice is debatable and how I use it is very broad, but I think the idea is clear) 11 million unemployed Americans. I'm not comfortable with that, nor should you be. However, a fair percentage of those are unemployed by choice. Someone that lost a $40K a year job doesn't want to flip burgers, and I understand that. No one felt bad for me when I was unemployed, and you know what? I still didn't go to work at McDonald's. I collected my unemployment check (which isn't available to illegals, by the way) until I found a suitable position. Yes, I agree with you on this and last year i wouldnt have. A concept learned in ECON is the natural unemployment rate. THere will always be unemployment. However, if the job market is filled with ONLY legal AMericans, than that unemployment is a natural and 'fair' one. ANd reducing the illegal population would reduce the supply curve and in theory raise wages (all things held constant). So even though unemployment will always exist, it is more fair to Americans to be given the best possible situation and to remove anyone illegal to help improve that situation. I personally dont feel I owe anything to illegal immigrants and the impact they have on our economy CAN be viewed as positive however mostly from what Ive seen it is more negative than positive, and thats looking at the issue without any consideration to the very fact that they are illegally here, which also a smack in the face to those legally seeking citizenship (my JDM GF for example). It is illegal to flick cigarette butts out the window. It's illegal to change lanes without a signal. There's tons of things that are illegal, but we don't have the manpower to enforce the law. Not saying it's right, but what would you do to feed your family? interesting point, one made a bit ago on a radio show and a caller made the point that right now crossing the border isnt a high crime and some legislature now is trying to be passed to make illegal immigration MORE of a crime than it is now. I havent dipped into this part of the issue much, I really dont have much to say on that. But honestly if i was in a bad situation, i would do the same, but even stealling bread to feed your family is morally just, it is illegal and cant be allowed. The bread has to be earned, or given, but stealing is not the way to go. Neither is breaking the law. ANd im very guilty of breaking some traffic laws and etc ... but if I get caught, I too will pay the price and in all honesty deserve it. Thats kinda why i dont feel bad about deporting 11 million ppl ... holy crap that is a lot of ppl and would be a huge impact on our country... hmm interesting thought. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Science Abuse Posted April 9, 2006 Report Share Posted April 9, 2006 I don't think he was referring to John and Jane Taxpayer. Actualy, I was. We're all Americans, we all effect our counries fate. It's too easy to borrow money, and it's encouraged way to much. This weekend, I made stops at Kohls and Sears. They each offered me $1000 lines of credit, requiring absolutely nothing from me up front. I could have gone $2000 in debt without even having a job. There are too many predatory lenders ans irresponceble borrowers out there. Too many people advertising a type of lifestyle and a flimsy means of aquiring it. I wont be suprised if some day, Elena and I are still in a 2 bedroom apartment, but we'll have dozens of nighbors with $250k debit from the houses they just had repossed. I think he was talking about how our economy is heavily owned by China. Actualy, the Saudis own far far more of the U.S. then China. They literaly have Trillions of dollars floating around the states, something like 6-7% of our economy is owned by them. That's how they support terrorism and STILL get their asses kissed by people in government. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
chrismindless Posted April 9, 2006 Report Share Posted April 9, 2006 U.S. Senate Roll Call Votes 109th Congress - 2nd Session as compiled through Senate LIS by the Senate Bill Clerk under the direction of the Secretary of the Senate Vote Summary ::::::::: [ this bill has nothing to do with securing the borders but moreover it has to do will letting illegal immigrants gain citizenship. I am very opposed to this as my girlfriend is Japanese and has been on the list for 3 years now, waiting in line legally ... what about her? This kind of movement makes us look real bad in the world's eyes and makes a mockery of out laws] Question: On the Cloture Motion (Motion to Invoke Cloture on the Specter Amdt. No. 3192 ) Vote Number: 88 Vote Date: April 6, 2006, 10:58 AM Required For Majority: 3/5 Vote Result: Cloture Motion Rejected Amendment Number: S.Amdt. 3192 to S. 2454 (Securing America's Borders Act ) Statement of Purpose: To amend the Immigration and Nationality Act to provide for comprehensive reform and to provide conditional nonimmigrant authorization for employment to undocumented aliens, and for other purposes. Vote Counts: YEAs 39 NAYs 60 Not Voting 1 Grouped By Vote Position YEAs ---39 Akaka (D-HI) Baucus (D-MT) Bayh (D-IN) Biden (D-DE) Bingaman (D-NM) Boxer (D-CA) Cantwell (D-WA) Carper (D-DE) Clinton (D-NY) Dayton (D-MN) Dodd (D-CT) Durbin (D-IL) Feingold (D-WI) Feinstein (D-CA) Harkin (D-IA) Inouye (D-HI) Jeffords (I-VT) Johnson (D-SD) Kennedy (D-MA) Kerry (D-MA) Kohl (D-WI) Landrieu (D-LA) Lautenberg (D-NJ) Leahy (D-VT) Levin (D-MI) Lieberman (D-CT) Lincoln (D-AR) Menendez (D-NJ) Mikulski (D-MD) Murray (D-WA) Obama (D-IL) Pryor (D-AR) Reed (D-RI) Reid (D-NV) Salazar (D-CO) Sarbanes (D-MD) Schumer (D-NY) Stabenow (D-MI) Wyden (D-OR) NAYs ---60 Alexander (R-TN) Allard (R-CO) Allen (R-VA) Bennett (R-UT) Bond (R-MO) Brownback (R-KS) Bunning (R-KY) Burns (R-MT) Burr (R-NC) Byrd (D-WV) Chafee (R-RI) Chambliss (R-GA) Coburn (R-OK) Cochran (R-MS) Coleman (R-MN) Collins (R-ME) Conrad (D-ND) Cornyn (R-TX) Craig (R-ID) Crapo (R-ID) DeMint (R-SC) DeWine (R-OH) Dole (R-NC) Domenici (R-NM) Dorgan (D-ND) Ensign (R-NV) Enzi (R-WY) Frist (R-TN) Graham (R-SC) Grassley (R-IA) Gregg (R-NH) Hagel (R-NE) Hatch (R-UT) Hutchison (R-TX) Inhofe (R-OK) Isakson (R-GA) Kyl (R-AZ) Lott (R-MS) Lugar (R-IN) Martinez (R-FL) McCain (R-AZ) McConnell (R-KY) Murkowski (R-AK) Nelson (D-FL) Nelson (D-NE) Roberts (R-KS) Santorum (R-PA) Sessions (R-AL) Shelby (R-AL) Smith (R-OR) Snowe (R-ME) Specter (R-PA) Stevens (R-AK) Sununu (R-NH) Talent (R-MO) Thomas (R-WY) Thune (R-SD) Vitter (R-LA) Voinovich (R-OH) Warner (R-VA) Not Voting - 1 Rockefeller (D-WV) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
El Karacho1647545492 Posted April 9, 2006 Report Share Posted April 9, 2006 I'm gonna go out on a limb here and just say this: Bipartisan politics blow my ass. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Science Abuse Posted April 9, 2006 Report Share Posted April 9, 2006 see why I hate democrats equally? Not cuz they're neccesarily bad folk, they're just stupid. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
copperhead Posted April 9, 2006 Report Share Posted April 9, 2006 see why I hate democrats equally? Not cuz they're neccesarily bad folk, they're just stupid. yet you have no problem siding with them when convenient Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Science Abuse Posted April 9, 2006 Report Share Posted April 9, 2006 yet you have no problem siding with them when convenient It's not a matter convenience, it's a matter of right and wrong. That's how I make my descisions, not by "what ze parrrty" wants. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Recommended Posts
Join the conversation
You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.