Sparky Posted July 28, 2008 Report Share Posted July 28, 2008 Expensive gas is nice for finding alternatives. Apparently nothing else will do it. Il almost afraid that 3.50-3.60 (if it does indeed stay there) won't keep the pressure on to find an alternative. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Scotty2Hotty Posted July 28, 2008 Report Share Posted July 28, 2008 If it makes any of you feel better *I* still get pissed off at paying for gas. This is a flame-worthy statement, but the one good thing that is coming from the past few years of expensive gas is the complete decimation of the 'light truck' market in the US. People ARE waking up and realizing that driving a pickup truck 40 miles to work every day is a damn stupid idea. Ford wrote off $8,000,000,000 in inventory last quarter thanks to Joe Sixpack finally getting his head out of his ass and opting for a sedan instead of a pickup. U S A! U S A! Some people actually USE their pickup trucks for normal use. Ever think about that? Can't haul with a civic, can't move mulch with a Prius, and deffinately can't tailgate with a sentra. Most new trucks are actually getting anywhere 17+MPG. Not bad considering most are 7K+LBS. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jeffmeden Posted July 28, 2008 Report Share Posted July 28, 2008 Some people actually USE their pickup trucks for normal use. Ever think about that? Can't haul with a civic, can't move mulch with a Prius, and deffinately can't tailgate with a sentra. Most new trucks are actually getting anywhere 17+MPG. Not bad considering most are 7K+LBS. I did, thanks for asking! I have no problem with people buying pickup trucks who actually use them. The bottom line is that those people are still buying pickup trucks, because, oh my, they still need them! Trucks will always be around and those who use them industriously will have no problem buying them and filling their tanks. Who isn't buying pickup trucks any more? Why, 95% of the previous buyers, that's who! My point was that people buying light trucks, SUVs, etc. for no practical purpose (aside from the ego boost) are giving them up thanks to the price of gas. Making a rational decision to buy a more efficient car is what has resulted in an epic collapse of the truck market in the US. That, in a nutshell, is the silver lining on the oil crisis. Hell, you guys who use them for practical purposes should be thanking Jesus too, since you can now buy them for cheaper than ever before. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Razorback Posted July 29, 2008 Report Share Posted July 29, 2008 The crazy thing that I saw a story on recently was that since people are driving less, now they're talking about having to raise taxes to pay for road maintenance since part of the gas tax goes toward road/bridge upkeep....what do you guys think? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Spidey2721 Posted July 29, 2008 Author Report Share Posted July 29, 2008 well if we are driving less then there should be less wear and tear on the roads and bridges! :-) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jeffmeden Posted July 29, 2008 Report Share Posted July 29, 2008 The crazy thing that I saw a story on recently was that since people are driving less, now they're talking about having to raise taxes to pay for road maintenance since part of the gas tax goes toward road/bridge upkeep....what do you guys think? Given that the amount of gas bought is fixed given a fixed price, I would be all for a raise to the gas tax. You conservatives are probably going to call me out on this one, but the bottom line is that if there were (for example) an extra 10c/gal tax on gas, the price at the pump adjusts according to supply/demand and the actual amount out of your pocket doesn't change. The same argument is brought against those who would see the gas tax go away in favor of giving 'relief' to motorists. Guess what, the price will be the price will be the price and tax or no tax it will cost just as much as we're willing to pay, no more and no less. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
OSUGT Posted July 29, 2008 Report Share Posted July 29, 2008 Given that the amount of gas bought is fixed given a fixed price, I would be all for a raise to the gas tax. You conservatives are probably going to call me out on this one, but the bottom line is that if there were (for example) an extra 10c/gal tax on gas, the price at the pump adjusts according to supply/demand and the actual amount out of your pocket doesn't change. The same argument is brought against those who would see the gas tax go away in favor of giving 'relief' to motorists. Guess what, the price will be the price will be the price and tax or no tax it will cost just as much as we're willing to pay, no more and no less. Two things....why don't you just make an extra donation to the IRS every year and leave me out of it? Secondly, that is the most flawed logic I've ever heard. The price will be the price PLUS 10 cents. Move to Europe. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LJ Posted July 29, 2008 Report Share Posted July 29, 2008 Given that the amount of gas bought is fixed given a fixed price, I would be all for a raise to the gas tax. You conservatives are probably going to call me out on this one, but the bottom line is that if there were (for example) an extra 10c/gal tax on gas, the price at the pump adjusts according to supply/demand and the actual amount out of your pocket doesn't change. The same argument is brought against those who would see the gas tax go away in favor of giving 'relief' to motorists. Guess what, the price will be the price will be the price and tax or no tax it will cost just as much as we're willing to pay, no more and no less. The price of gas is set by a commodities market and the price of gas would raise $.10 if they raised the tax by $.10, I dunno where you are coming up with information? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jeffmeden Posted July 29, 2008 Report Share Posted July 29, 2008 The price of gas is set by a commodities market and the price of gas would raise $.10 if they raised the tax by $.10, I dunno where you are coming up with information? The commodities market is *where you get your gas*. If there is an 'artificial' $.10 added on to the price, the exact same equilibrium is reached for the amount of gas available and the price the market is willing to bear. It works like this, say you went out today and added $.10 to the price at the pump. Low and behold, you don't sell as much gas at [price]+$.10 as you did at [price]. What happened? The price finds an equilibrium at wherever the market will bear. Tax or no tax, the price of gas will be the same given the buyers and sellers are bringing the same things to the table. With a tax you are basically forcing the supplier to slice off (some of the) profit and give it to the IRS. OSUGT: when you have grasped middle school economics, let me know. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
OSUGT Posted July 29, 2008 Report Share Posted July 29, 2008 OSUGT: when you have grasped middle school economics, let me know. When you get elementary math down, you let me know. Market price + tax does not equal market value. Just like 1 + 1 doesnt equal 1. If you add 10cents a gallon in tax, that is an artificial market value. You just keep telling yourself it's not. Did you really say the amount of money out of my pocket wouldn't change if an additional tax were levied? Seems to me the amount would change by 10 cents plus any variance in price. And you libs said Bush had a problem with "fuzzy math" Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jeffmeden Posted July 29, 2008 Report Share Posted July 29, 2008 When you get elementary math down, you let me know. Market price + tax does not equal market value. Just like 1 + 1 doesnt equal 1. If you add 10cents a gallon in tax, that is an artificial market value. You just keep telling yourself it's not. You fail to grasp the concept of "market price". Try again. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
OSUGT Posted July 29, 2008 Report Share Posted July 29, 2008 I fail . Fixed One more thing. Your definition of economics may be slightly different. I favor market force economic policy. You favor a govt intervention/manipulation to demand. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jeffmeden Posted July 29, 2008 Report Share Posted July 29, 2008 Fixed Not that it makes any difference since you seem to revel in ignorance, here goes one last shot at reality. When you introduce an extra cost, like tax, on a commodity, like gasoline, all you do is increase the cost-to-market of that product. The market price is determined solely by supply and demand, the more demand and/or the less supply, the higher the price. The cost to market is irrelevant as long as demand is carrying the price (in the case of gasoline this is foregone,) the price will go as high as it takes to sell exactly enough as to not run out. This is the purpose of the market. One more thing. Your definition of economics may be slightly different. I favor market force economic policy. You favor a govt intervention/manipulation to demand. I am not suggesting the government influence the demand in any way. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
OSUGT Posted July 29, 2008 Report Share Posted July 29, 2008 Not that it makes any difference since you seem to revel in ignorance, here goes one last shot at reality. When you introduce an extra cost, like tax, on a commodity, like gasoline, all you do is increase the cost-to-market of that product. The market price is determined solely by supply and demand, the more demand and/or the less supply, the higher the price. The cost to market is irrelevant as long as demand is carrying the price (in the case of gasoline this is foregone,) the price will go as high as it takes to sell exactly enough as to not run out. This is the purpose of the market. Nice thesis. You still manipulate demand artificially with taxes. I'll keep reveling in ignorance and you pay the extra tax, douchebag. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
copperhead Posted July 29, 2008 Report Share Posted July 29, 2008 The problem with JeffMeden's theory is that gas doesn't follow traditional market analysis, seeing how the demand/supply/price of fuel doesn't really change, and doesn't really have a direct affect on each other. -edit: the price is the only part of that equation that really changes, but it has very little bearing on the other two parts. Consider, the price of a barrel of oil dropped over $25 in the last few weeks. Why? Well, demand is down slightly, from last year, but it's still about what it was last month. No affect. Supply is bad right now, some Shell pipelines got blown up by some assholes in south america this month. Typically, this lack of supply should drive up prices, right? Not this time. So where does the price actually come from, since those two things really have no bearing on it? Oh, that's right, asshole investors who are scared of the dollar value. The value of the U.S. Dollar has jumped significantly this month. This means that investors can now move their money to a different part of the market to make far more than they can with commodities like oil, so they bail and the demand for the stock drops, causing the price of the stock to drop. Now then, how does adding in an extra tax have any affect on a market that is barely driven by supply and demand? It doesn't. An extra tax will cost everyone money, the market simply doesn't give a shit about correcting for it. JeffMeden's argument only works if it would cause lopsided competitiveness, where one gas station would have to mark up or down to match the station across the street, which simply isn't the case with a tax levied against everyone. Now, if anyone is still reading, here is something else to chew on. Where would this extra gas tax go? Not to fixing the roads, that doesn't happen regardless of how much cash is in the fund. Nope, it goes into a fund available to the public for certain recreational activities, and groups can apply for these funds. Most of it in Ohio goes to state parks and hippie groups that want horse or walking trails. Now, prove to me that increasing the gas tax is going to anything other than pad a fund that doesn't really get used anyway. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
copperhead Posted July 29, 2008 Report Share Posted July 29, 2008 Something else that is being speculated, is that many investors have their oil stocks set to sell once the price hits $120/barrel. That's only about $5 away. If a significant number of brokers dump their stocks at that point, the price will easily sink to $100/barrel. Everyone pray the dollar value goes up just a bit more to help push it over the edge. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LJ Posted July 29, 2008 Report Share Posted July 29, 2008 The commodities market is *where you get your gas*. If there is an 'artificial' $.10 added on to the price, the exact same equilibrium is reached for the amount of gas available and the price the market is willing to bear. It works like this, say you went out today and added $.10 to the price at the pump. Low and behold, you don't sell as much gas at [price]+$.10 as you did at [price]. What happened? The price finds an equilibrium at wherever the market will bear. Tax or no tax, the price of gas will be the same given the buyers and sellers are bringing the same things to the table. With a tax you are basically forcing the supplier to slice off (some of the) profit and give it to the IRS. OSUGT: when you have grasped middle school economics, let me know. The price is set pre tax on a commodities market, tax has 0 effect on price. Sorry play again. BTW, you are leaving out gas station profit, which is also factored in after the commodity price is set. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
OSUGT Posted July 29, 2008 Report Share Posted July 29, 2008 Tax or no tax, the price of gas will be the same given the buyers and sellers are bringing the same things to the table. With a tax you are basically forcing the supplier to slice off (some of the) profit and give it to the IRS. OSUGT: when you have grasped middle school economics, let me know. So now the state gives up the income tax from the chopped margins of the suppliers? Stepping over a dollar to pick up a nickel from a tax perspective. Seeing that corporate income taxes are probably in the 40-50 percent range, you are proposing what amounts to a 2 percent increase in gas? Serious number crunching would need done to even make this a viable source of revenue. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fubar231 Posted July 29, 2008 Report Share Posted July 29, 2008 Every time i look at gas prices i just think how much it would suck to be in Europe. Its nearly 10USD over there for a gallon! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
supldys Posted July 31, 2008 Report Share Posted July 31, 2008 Every time i look at gas prices i just think how much it would suck to be in Europe. Its nearly 10USD over there for a gallon! True, but most of that is taxes, and because their taxes are so high they get a bit more from it. So by paying $10 a gal they get free health care and shit, bt I think thats a terrible way to do it Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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