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A moment of silence (pun intended)


Nate1647545505

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Early this year I made a trip down to a local store that happened to be a very large Class III supporter. While chatting with the owner, I was introduced to a clever gentleman who owns and operates Huntertown Arms.

 

His cans have been hitting production recently, and the reviews seem favorable.

 

 

Military Channel's review:

 

 

While not Delta Force like in terms of performance, for the budget minded and hearing degraded -- they're a good option.

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Once you find a Class III dealer (My brother uses H&E and Vances) to purchase from:

 

Two sets of Form 4, with passport photos and LEO sign offs

 

Two sets of fingerprint cards

 

Three to an infinite number of months time :gabe:

Good luck finding one to sign off in this area. I went the trust route. :dumb:

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Expand on this.......

 

There are 3 routes you can go when obtaining a Title II firearm:

 

-Individual ownership = You own the weapon. You submit fingerprints, a passport photo, and requires a Chief Law Enforcement Officer (CLEO) to sign off on acknowledgement that the weapon is entering their jurisdiction. This can be your county sheriff (most common), judge, local chief of police, and some other positions that I can't think of off the top of my head. The problem is, you have to get one of them who knows anything about the process, which most do not. They tend to think that by signing off on the process that they are taking responsibility for the weapon, which is not the case at all. They are simply acknowledging that the weapon is entering their territory. It's more of a courtesy thing. Rumor has it that the ATF will eventually be doing away with the CLEO sign-off because it really serves no purpose other than to prevent perfectly legal Title II acquisitions.

 

-Trust ownership = A trust owns the weapon. You setup a simple revocable living trust (usually with Quicken Will Maker). Assign yourself as Grantor and Trustee of the trust and assign any beneficiaries of it that you like. Any person listed in the trust is allowed to possess the weapon. Obviously, since a trust does not technically have a physical identity, no photo or fingerprints are required. You also can fore go the CLEO sign off as well, which is a major advantage. The shitty part is that you have to engrave the trust name, and all trustees/beneficiaries into the firearm. If you plan on keeping the firearm, that is fine. It does complicate things if you ever intend to sell it.

 

-LLC ownership = You form an LLC, which takes possession of the firearm. Admittedly, I do not know much about this route. The only thing I have heard is that you have to pay a yearly fee to keep possession and that it is still sketchy as to whether or not this is truly a legal route to ownership.

 

Ideally, Individual ownership is the way to go, if you can get the sign off. If you can't, forming a trust with Quicken Will Maker is really not that complicated and is an alternative method.

 

Clear as mud?

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There are 3 routes you can go when obtaining a Title II firearm:

 

-Individual ownership = You own the weapon. You submit fingerprints, a passport photo, and requires a Chief Law Enforcement Officer (CLEO) to sign off on acknowledgement that the weapon is entering their jurisdiction. This can be your county sheriff (most common), judge, local chief of police, and some other positions that I can't think of off the top of my head. The problem is, you have to get one of them who knows anything about the process, which most do not. They tend to think that by signing off on the process that they are taking responsibility for the weapon, which is not the case at all. They are simply acknowledging that the weapon is entering their territory. It's more of a courtesy thing. Rumor has it that the ATF will eventually be doing away with the CLEO sign-off because it really serves no purpose other than to prevent perfectly legal Title II acquisitions.

 

-Trust ownership = A trust owns the weapon. You setup a simple revocable living trust (usually with Quicken Will Maker). Assign yourself as Grantor and Trustee of the trust and assign any beneficiaries of it that you like. Any person listed in the trust is allowed to possess the weapon. Obviously, since a trust does not technically have a physical identity, no photo or fingerprints are required. You also can fore go the CLEO sign off as well, which is a major advantage. The shitty part is that you have to engrave the trust name, and all trustees/beneficiaries into the firearm. If you plan on keeping the firearm, that is fine. It does complicate things if you ever intend to sell it.

 

-LLC ownership = You form an LLC, which takes possession of the firearm. Admittedly, I do not know much about this route. The only thing I have heard is that you have to pay a yearly fee to keep possession and that it is still sketchy as to whether or not this is truly a legal route to ownership.

 

Ideally, Individual ownership is the way to go, if you can get the sign off. If you can't, forming a trust with Quicken Will Maker is really not that complicated and is an alternative method.

 

Clear as mud?

 

Engraving is only needed on Form 1

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If you live in Franklin County...you HAVE to go the trust route. No other way...Franklin county is a PITA to get a suppressor in. Trusts WILL take about 5-6 months and are a flat 500.00 fee (250 up front and 250 at delivery of trust). The lawyers who do the trusts for Franklin county take forever.

 

This info came from Blackwing when looking at them. The attendee helping me (Delaware Sheriff, but lives in Franklin) let me know he went in uniform to local Sheriff office to get the stamp and they told him no way and that he would have to wait like everyone else for the signed off trust before getting the stamp. He showed me his supressor that still has been in the box for months awaiting the trust. Most everyone else at Blackwing lives outside the Franklin county lines and they all have suppressors without all of this drama.

 

Trust - 500

Transfer tax - 200

Supressor - XX

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If you live in Franklin County...you HAVE to go the trust route. No other way...Franklin county is a PITA to get a suppressor in. Trusts WILL take about 5-6 months and are a flat 500.00 fee (250 up front and 250 at delivery of trust). The lawyers who do the trusts for Franklin county take forever.

 

This info came from Blackwing when looking at them. The attendee helping me (Delaware Sheriff, but lives in Franklin) let me know he went in uniform to local Sheriff office to get the stamp and they told him no way and that he would have to wait like everyone else for the signed off trust before getting the stamp. He showed me his supressor that still has been in the box for months awaiting the trust. Most everyone else at Blackwing lives outside the Franklin county lines and they all have suppressors without all of this drama.

Trust - 500

Transfer tax - 200

Supressor - XX

 

You bring up an interesting point, many people will get their Quicken XXXX software trust approved - but approval doesn't mean the trust is valid and the BATF won't be knocking at your door. If 10 years in the pen and a 250,000$ fine don't urge you to seek legal advice -- well, good luck.

 

Hopefully JAG didn't F my trust up. :dumb:

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Those can designs look rather simple, effective and damn similar to other's I have seen. I like the fact that they are end user serviceable. If for some reason a bullet gets wonky inside, simply replace the baffle. The "tube" is USUALLY the s/n'd item...

 

:thumbup:

 

KillJoy

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You bring up an interesting point, many people will get their Quicken XXXX software trust approved - but approval doesn't mean the trust is valid and the BATF won't be knocking at your door. If 10 years in the pen and a 250,000$ fine don't urge you to seek legal advice -- well, good luck.

 

Hopefully JAG didn't F my trust up. :dumb:

 

Some people are actually having more trouble with an attorney-made trust vs. a Quicken-made. Apparently a lot of attorneys aren't providing a specific form that is required when going the trust route, whereas Quicken does. So long as the trust is notarized and laid out in plain writing, I do not see a problem with it. Saying that one person's trust made by a software isn't as good as another that is written by a person doesn't make sense to me. The BATF would have a hard time trying to convince me otherwise. I also take comfort in the fact that a ton of people go the Quicken route. If I were one of a few, I would be more concerned, but they are going to have one hell of a time convicting thousands of people over something as simple as how it was drafted.

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Some people are actually having more trouble with an attorney-made trust vs. a Quicken-made. Apparently a lot of attorneys aren't providing a specific form that is required when going the trust route, whereas Quicken does. So long as the trust is notarized and laid out in plain writing, I do not see a problem with it. Saying that one person's trust made by a software isn't as good as another that is written by a person doesn't make sense to me. The BATF would have a hard time trying to convince me otherwise. I also take comfort in the fact that a ton of people go the Quicken route. If I were one of a few, I would be more concerned, but they are going to have one hell of a time convicting thousands of people over something as simple as how it was drafted.

 

 

Again, very good points. I spoke allot with the NFA examiner and few agents at the Columbus BATF office -- they've gotten calls from attorneys that have no idea what to do and charge some poor soul 500-600$.

You're also correct that a legal document is a legal document. JAG had a case where a Will had been written on an orange -- ruled completely legit.

There is so little regulation (or guidance for that matter) on trust law when dealing with NFA items it is painful. However, the NFA's job is merely to check the Trust is registered and valid -- not to verify the validity on execution. If you don’t follow the proper guidelines to operate within the trust and as the trust, you could be in for some bad news.

Would it ever come to that? I'd agree with you, probably not. I'm just not comfortable with the consequences if I get a knock on the door.

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