Dviant Image business model is bunk

[fusion]

Yup you should never haggle price ever.

[Todd#43]

Really?

let me do the math

15 images x $30= $450

$50 x 1 image package = $50

15 images = 15 images either way

$450 - $50= $400

Hmmm, after working it out I'd say I saved $400 FTMFW!!!!!!

Seems like a win to me.

My buddy got a CD, it had 20 images on it. So big deal, worst case I could spend $80 and get all images. Then the math would be pretty similar to above, still a savings of say .... a set of brand new race tires or so.

I also fail to see where I was outside of my rights. We all operated like adults here. I can question his business model up and down the street if I want to regardless of my education on the matter. It doesn't mean he has to change a thing and it certainly doesn't mean I know more than he does, it just means I disagree with the way he operates and I'm letting him and others know about it. I could have an IQ of 50, never have seen a camera or motorcycle or track day or a business in my life and I'd still have every right to email this guy about whatever I want. He could then deal with it however he saw fit. Ignoring me is with in his rights. What are you trying to say here? Are you just a negative nilly?

Maybe I missed something, but I could have sworn you said you could purchase the CD up front for $60.00. If the same number of images is now going to cost you $80.00 how did you win? You're going to spend $20.00 more than your buddy.

What I'm saying here is that you knew the policy going in, yet you chose not to "pre-purchase" your CD. After your track day you decided you wanted the photos, but were offended by his pricing (which, once again, you knew about in advance). You blame this cat's "business model" when in reality the business model wasn't the problem. Your decision is what had the potential to cost you a shitload more money.

[Cdubyah]

$60 up front for a disc of photos, that you have never seen, is a odd business practice. For all you know, for $60 he could give you a disc full of photos of someone else. Sell it to you as is, then not refund your money when you find out.

Most photographers, or at least whom I have dealt with, allow you to view the photos, and make your selections from that. Not jack the price up if you want to look at them, and purchase them later.

[Disclaimer]

Wait? People don't usually buy things sight unseen? And what is this "buyer's remorse" term that I keep hearing? /sarcasm

But I suppose in some weird off-tangent way, Todd's right. It's capitalism at it's finest... here is the photographer's offer, take it or leave it. He'll eventually put himself out of business if things "work" the way they're supposed to right? You just won't have photographs of your silly trackday - only memories, and those are yours to keep for free. Until the gov't figures out how to tax them.

Edited April 8, 2009 by JRMMiii

[tomin40]

Sounds like all he cares about is the $$$$. Paying for the CD, at the track without seeing the pics, is a guaranteed $60 in his pocket. Now charging $60 per picture after seeing them is a load of crap. If he does have his MBA it doesn't look like he understands economics 101, supply, demand and equilibrium.

Glad you were able to talk him down and get a reasonable price for the pics you wanted.

[vw151]

Maybe I missed something, but I could have sworn you said you could purchase the CD up front for $60.00. If the same number of images is now going to cost you $80.00 how did you win? You're going to spend $20.00 more than your buddy.

What I'm saying here is that you knew the policy going in, yet you chose not to "pre-purchase" your CD. After your track day you decided you wanted the photos, but were offended by his pricing (which, once again, you knew about in advance). You blame this cat's "business model" when in reality the business model wasn't the problem. Your decision is what had the potential to cost you a shitload more money.

I guess you can spin it however you want. I actually discussed it with the photographer at the track and told him I did not want to buy my images site unseen and would email him regarding buying a CD after the fact. Based on our discussion I thought we had a verbal agreement.

I then emailed him and was denied, I then discovered his pricing scheme. Based on what he was saying at the track I actually thought that the digital images were to be unavailable after the track day. I later found that he was charging $30 per image on his site which I felt was unreasonable.

If you actually read the content of the email you would have seen that I actually suggested selling the CD at the track at a comparable discount to what he sells it for on his site but also feel that a 1000% markup for the privilege of being able to see what you are buying before purchase was unreasonable.

So.... I feel that paying $20 more after the track day and not having to buy on "Faith" as Kirk calls it is worthwhile and reasonable. Beyond that I feel that a $400 savings justifies win status. For the record I'm not competing against my buddies price, if we are gonna talk about a win and a loss I'd say it would involve me and the photographer and the measure of a win or a loss is not black and white. I do think that I'm the one that gets to determine whether it's a win or a loss though being that I'm the one who put in the effort and of course me winning doesn't mean he lost. We can both win here and I think we did. Here is how I would determine a win or loss in this situation.

Self, do you feel that it was worth your time to haggle with the photographer after saving around $400 and allowing others the opportunity to buy images at a reasonable price after being able to view the images?

Why yes, I would say a savings of $400 and a change in the price structure for the good of the other track day participants was not only worth your time but I'd even go so far as to call it a big win!

....and that is how it would work. I don't think I'd even consider the random guy on ohio-riders named todd's opinion on the matter even if he doesn't think it's a win. Lucky for him though, if he ever attends a track day that Dviant Image photographs he will now have these cheaper alternatives for his photography needs along with the option of buying the CD site unseen at the track. I think everyone won, even Todd.

Edited April 8, 2009 by vw151

[vw151]

Wait? People don't usually buy things sight unseen? And what is this "buyer's remorse" term that I keep hearing? /sarcasm

But I suppose in some weird off-tangent way, Todd's right. It's capitalism at it's finest... here is the photographer's offer, take it or leave it. He'll eventually put himself out of business if things "work" the way they're supposed to right? You just won't have photographs of your silly trackday - only memories, and those are yours to keep for free. Until the gov't figures out how to tax them.

It's a crazy world we live in where capitalism and freedom of speech allow things like this to go on.

Honestly, I pretty quickly got to the point where I didn't care if I got the images or not but I figured I'd see it through as writing is fun.

[wrillo]

vw151, I would just ignore todd. He is a __edited (be creative)___ and is just trying to get a rise out of you. Search the forum. Thats all he does, rarely does he have anything of value to add to conversations. I too would pay an additional $20 to see the photos before I bought them, so good on you for causing change. You got want you wanted at a reasonable price and you might have helped bring Kirk more business. I call that a win win

[vw151]

vw151, I would just ignore todd. He is a __edited (be creative)___ and is just trying to get a rise out of you. Search the forum. Thats all he does, rarely does he have anything of value to add to conversations. I too would pay an additional $20 to see the photos before I bought them, so good on you for causing change. You got want you wanted at a reasonable price and you might have helped bring Kirk more business. I call that a win win

Thanks wrillo,

As I do all too often I was just having too much fun arguing with him. I've heard that about Todd before from some of my friends that I know off of the internet.

The hard part is trying not to be a douche bag in the responses but yet still get a healthy dose of sarcasm in every bite.

[V4junkie]

What I want to know is . . . how did Todd get so much rep?

[Speed]

What I want to know is . . . how did Todd get so much rep?

I think the rep fits. Like his opinion of himself, they're both over inflated and don't represent reality.

[Disclaimer]

I think the rep fits. Like his opinion of himself, they're both over inflated and don't represent reality.

SNAP! Internet is srs biznis.

[V4junkie]

Ya Rly!

[wrillo]

yeah I know what you're saying about the sarcasm.. new rule, all sarcasm needs to be in italics

I just got asked to remove my sig about posting bikes for sale because my sarcasm wasn't clear enough for whodey

[vw151]

But it's so much more condescending if only the "cool" people get it.

BTW, I called Italy and they referred me to Ferrari North America. Who knew it wasn't Italy that makes those cars. How do you think I got my Ducati. geez.... I argued with them about how Suzuki's are so much cheaper until they got tired of me.

I'm starting to realize that maybe Todd's problem is not my argument but that I posted it on this forum. I only did that for entertainment and informational purposes.

Todd, why did you post in this thread?

Edited April 8, 2009 by vw151

[Speed]

Ask for a group discount too; mebbe it'll help

For the right price, I'll take one sight unseen

[Todd#43]

But it's so much more condescending if only the "cool" people get it.

BTW, I called Italy and they referred me to Ferrari North America. Who knew it wasn't Italy that makes those cars.

Ummmm...Ferrari North America is the North American Importer for the company.

They don't manufacture cars in the People's Republic of Amerika.

[vw151]

Ummmm...Ferrari North America is the North American Importer for the company.

They don't manufacture cars in the People's Republic of Amerika.

It was a joke. Ferrari makes the cars not Italy. Lighten up.

Why don't you do it? I mean, all it takes is a camera, right?

Yes I'd say that is about what it takes, a very expensive camera makes better pictures than a cheap one and people are intimidated by how to use them but given a long lens and a reasonable camera and a big memory card you too could make track day photographer style pictures. I do agree however, working out the business model might be the tough part.

I have a Canon Digital Rebel (8 megapixel) and an old 70-300mm F4.0-5.6 Lens. All in all you could afford this set up today for around $800. I handed this camera to 2 separate guys in the desmohio club last year at a Mid-OH track day and they made these pictures after about 5 minutes of instruction on how to use the Camera. The track photographers are usually shooting with a camera body that costs between $1000 and $5000 and a lens that is anywhere from $1000-$3000 and believe me this equiptment makes a big difference but in the end, if you have the long lens, quantity of shots eventually yields good shots. I left some of them at high res so you could criticize the photo more easily. Have at it.

I deleted the big 3 images because they were annoyingly huge.

just go hear if you want to see tons of pics that amateurs shot. Sure not as good but proves the point.

http://s144.photobucket.com/albums/r197/vw151/mid%20ohio%20tucker%20rocky/

there are tons of pics, some track, some not.

Edited April 8, 2009 by vw151

[wrillo]

I like life-size pictures!

[vw151]

You know, the last point to make here is that the images probably don't hold their value across the board. the first few images you buy are gonna be worth more to you than the #18-20. In reality if I was actually gonna spend $30 per image then I'd have bought 5 or 10. In this case 15 will probably cover everything I want. I still just prefer to pay the flat rate for all of them and be done with it. I was originally so perturbed with the $30 per image price before that I just would not have bought anything so none of this would have mattered. That is what is called a boycott Todd. It's a part of our capitalistic society. Where we all have rights to talk to one another and rights to spend our money as we see fit and even rights to post these things on motorcycle forums, just as others are aloud to sell things and listen to the people they are selling things to in order to improve their ability to sell things or not listen to them and feel that their customers are always wrong. It's all up to them. Amazing! Eureka!!!! It's a crazy world we live in man. I don't know how I get by.

Edited April 8, 2009 by vw151

[Fonzie]

Oh looky......Todd's back

So, let me see if I have this right....

You have some money to spend.

and....

The photographer has a product that you want to buy.

but...

Said photographer wants more money for the product than you have to spend.

and....

You think it's stupid.

Did I get it right?

....... Annnnd we're off

[fusion]

I don't know if this helps or hurts your point, but here's a few I shot at Putnam last year. First time out shooting a trackday and quite possibly form one of the worst spots on the track, so think that's as amateur as it gets.

[vw151]

Those look good fusion. Taking nothing away from Kirk at Dviant image. I'm just saying that track day photography is what it is. If you have a long lens and a good camera you can take some kick ass shots. If you had a bunch of shots of me like that fusion I'd be bugging you to sell them to me. Of course the nice things about friends taking pics is it's free for everyone.

Again, Kirk took some good pics and this really had nothing to do with the quality of his work and was more about the strange business practice he was using that honestly seemed like high pressure sales to me.

The point about the amateur vs. professional photographer really is just that, as much as Kirk toots his own horn about how his photographs have a higher value than the competition I disagree because just about anyone with the proper equiptment and a little bit of know how is gonna turn out pretty similar images. Sure 1 might be better than another but there certainly wouldn't be a margin as big as say.... a Ferrari and a Chevy cobalt. I could see maybe a seasoned track photographer charge $100 for something a new photographer charged $60 for. An added value along those lines is understandable.

Have any of you guys done any fun practical jokes on this Todd guy. He seems like a real tool and it seems like everyone is already aware of it.

[Fonzie]

Sounds like all he cares about is the $$$$. Paying for the CD, at the track without seeing the pics, is a guaranteed $60 in his pocket. Now charging $60 per picture after seeing them is a load of crap. If he does have his MBA it doesn't look like he understands economics 101, supply, demand and equilibrium.

Glad you were able to talk him down and get a reasonable price for the pics you wanted.

$60 at the track for sight unseen.....You're sure to get some "dogs" in there that you don't want.

$30 per afterward.....He apparently thinks you need to pay more for only the premium shots of you, his labor in uploading & separating them, and the right to see your own image before you buy it.

Hell.....Even Cedar Point, Kings Island, Disney, etc show you your pix on the screen as soon as you get off the ride. The roaming photographers in the park also give you those cards with the ID#'s on them so you can go home & order later after previewing weeks later

Sounds like an arrogant punk who's young, dumb, & full of cum

I'm guessing the only reason he changed his price structure is because of your email to Ron.....NOT your replies to him. After the initial inquiry, those would've just entrenched me in my stance even more, if I were him

[thomez]

He changed his business model. $20 per image, $30 for 5 images $50 for 15 images.

that seems like a bad move to me

I would imagine that most (median) of his customers will now spend $30 or less, rather than the $60 minimum before.

Unless he is able to DOUBLE the amount of customers that he gets to purchase pictures from him, he's probably going to bring in less money.

Anyone disagree with that?