Dviant Image business model is bunk

[Fonzie]

Sweet shots Jeremi! You may not be a "professional".....but you're definitely no amateur either....Irregardless if that was your first track day shooting & you had a bad spot

[V4junkie]

Hmmm you have a point thomez

[Fonzie]

that seems like a bad move to me

I would imagine that most (median) of his customers will now spend $30 or less, rather than the $60 minimum before.

Unless he is able to DOUBLE the amount of customers that he gets to purchase pictures from him, he's probably going to bring in less money.

Anyone disagree with that?

I could see that. However.....I think the main grievance here is not being able to see what you're buying ahead of time.

How hard would it be for this kid to set up a TV/monitor in a central location (did he have a tent or booth or something), and show people their images on there before they bought. He's still getting $$ now, and they're getting the chance to "see before they buy". He must've had something set up somewhere, if he was able to burn CD's on site

[Disclaimer]

Irregardless

You make baby Jesus cry with your improper grammar and use of a double-negative.

[thomez]

I could see that. However.....I think the main grievance here is not being able to see what you're buying ahead of time.

How hard would it be for this kid to set up a TV/monitor in a central location (did he have a tent or booth or something), and show people their images on there before they bought. He's still getting $$ now, and they're getting the chance to "see before they buy". He must've had something set up somewhere, if he was able to burn CD's on site

His business model rests (rested?) on the fact that you can't simply look at your favorite picture (or 5 pictures) and buy those for half the price of his full CD of pictures that he offers.

You paid $60, got a bunch of pictures, maybe only 5 worth paying for. Now you pay half price for that.

Unless he doubles his customers, his original business model was probably superior. For him, not the consumer, of course. I think this was Todd's underlying point. Let the dude do what works for him.

[tomin40]

that seems like a bad move to me

I would imagine that most (median) of his customers will now spend $30 or less, rather than the $60 minimum before.

Unless he is able to DOUBLE the amount of customers that he gets to purchase pictures from him, he's probably going to bring in less money.

Anyone disagree with that?

I think it all depends on how many pictures per rider and how many people are willing to pay that amount. Its basic supply/demand based on his business model.

If you take the $60 per CD model, sight unseen. Many riders may not be willing to pay that amount because a) you dont know the quality of the pics and b) you dont know how many of you are on that cd.

So lets say he only sells 4 CDs at one track day.

4 x $60 = $240

Now with the "$20 per image, $30 for 5 images $50 for 15 images," model

more people may be willing to pay that amount.

Now lets say 10 people are willing to pay for individual pictures.

Even if the 10 people only pay for 1 image a piece thats $200.

If half pay for 5 images and the other for 1 thats $250.

[thomez]

Now imagine yourself as the consumer of his photography. You will go, you will talk to him, he will tell you about his $60 CD offer but also about the new "see before you buy" offers.

NOBODY will be pre-paying for CDs, or very few people.

This introduces a number of problems for him - the fact that people will spend less by picking out what they want, the fact that potential customers could now spend nothing after seeing his pictures of them (possibly compared to what their buddies got on their 7.2mp Sony), the fact that people put things off and forget when there is time between immediate desire and purchase, etc.

Like I said, in my little economic world, he has probably dropped his revenues with his new pricing structure.

[tomin40]

Unless he doubles his customers, his original business model was probably superior. For him, not the consumer, of course. I think this was Todd's underlying point. Let the dude do what works for him.

I would agree if he tried other selling at different price structures and 1 CD, $60, sight-unseen is what brings him the most $$$. But no one knows.

I think the original argument was correct in that a lot of other people sell their pics after everyone can see them and why doesn't this guy.

Paying that $60 may make you feel robbed.

[thomez]

I think it all depends on how many pictures per rider and how many people are willing to pay that amount. Its basic supply/demand based on his business model.

If you take the $60 per CD model, sight unseen. Many riders may not be willing to pay that amount because a) you dont know the quality of the pics and b) you dont know how many of you are on that cd.

So lets say he only sells 4 CDs at one track day.

4 x $60 = $240

Now with the "$20 per image, $30 for 5 images $50 for 15 images," model

more people may be willing to pay that amount.

Now lets say 10 people are willing to pay for individual pictures.

Even if the 10 people only pay for 1 image a piece thats $200.

If half pay for 5 images and the other for 1 thats $250.

Exactly, so to bring in greater than $240 he has to roughly double his number of customers, because on average they will be spending less money.

[thomez]

I would agree if he tried other selling at different price structures and 1 CD, $60, sight-unseen is what brings him the most $$$. But no one knows.

I think the original argument was correct in that a lot of other people sell their pics after everyone can see them and why doesn't this guy.

Paying that $60 may make you feel robbed.

I'm just playing Devil's advocate because I understand and appreciate both sides of the discussion.

Only Dviant Image will know the results of this change for better or worse.

[2wheels>4]

I could see that. However.....I think the main grievance here is not being able to see what you're buying ahead of time.

How hard would it be for this kid to set up a TV/monitor in a central location (did he have a tent or booth or something), and show people their images on there before they bought. He's still getting $$ now, and they're getting the chance to "see before they buy". He must've had something set up somewhere, if he was able to burn CD's on site

So. Fucking. Easy. The photographer is a foolish prick for not being able or willing to show his work on site.

However, it is his gloriously capitalist right to be a dick and fail miserably. Haggle if you can, nothing wrong with that, even trash his methods on the boards, but in the end it IS his intellectual property and his right to be a tool if he so desires...

You make baby Jesus cry with your improper grammar and use of a double-negative.

+ rep for grammar Nazi... Jesus, even a grade-school kid can use spell check...

[Speed]

Now imagine yourself as the consumer of his photography. You will go, you will talk to him, he will tell you about his $60 CD offer but also about the new "see before you buy" offers.

NOBODY will be pre-paying for CDs, or very few people.

This introduces a number of problems for him - the fact that people will spend less by picking out what they want, the fact that potential customers could now spend nothing after seeing his pictures of them (possibly compared to what their buddies got on their 7.2mp Sony), the fact that people put things off and forget when there is time between immediate desire and purchase, etc.

Like I said, in my little economic world, he has probably dropped his revenues with his new pricing structure.

If the work is going to be like the surprise in a cracker jack box forget it, I'm not buying anything. You're argument also leaves out some of the caveats of his pricing structure.

[vw151]

$60 CD is fine. I would gladly still pay $60 for all of the images. It was the you can only have them if you agree to buy them not only site unseen but even before he's been out the whole day shooting. Whether I agree to buy at the track or the next day or next month he still has to sort through them and burn them to a disk or offer them for download. The only nice thing about his new model is he doesn't have to sort shit. I pick 5 or 15 or whatever and pay. That's it.

I figured his best model would be as such

$40 for 1 day of images site unseen

$60 for 1 day of images after viewing

$60 for 2 days of images site unseen

$80 for 2 days of images after viewing.

This would follow very closely to split second photos model except I don't think they have the site unseen part. I think they even show you the images at the track that day.

Works for me. He came up with something completely different and that is fine too as long as my only option after the fact isn't $30 per image.

But come on.... "let the dude do what works for him" I'm not making him do anything, I'm merely arguing with him and speaking to the STT CEO about it. Might I remind you that he is the one that originally copied the CEO in on the emails. I just replied to all and I probably would have never emailed Ron otherwise. Ultimately he made the choice to alter his business model, whether he was persuaded by the STT guys or not. I also didn't originally email him to argue. I emailed him because we had bought rays images from him at the track (because ray saw the crash images on his camera) and I wanted to ask him to include a CD of me too which I thought we had come to an understanding about verbally at the track. I clearly was wrong.

I really do feel that whatever the model it aught to be consistent among the STT photographers so we can get a consistent product no matter what STT event we attend. I think that is better for STT.

[thomez]

If the work is going to be like the surprise in a cracker jack box forget it, I'm not buying anything. You're argument also leaves out some of the caveats of his pricing structure.

I don't think my argument has left out anything, to be honest.

The questions for him to answer will be

"did you double your number of customers?"

"did they spend $30 or more on average?"

if so, he wins by the change

if not, he loses

it's relatively simple

[thomez]

But come on.... "let the dude do what works for him" I'm not making him do anything, I'm merely arguing with him and speaking to the STT CEO about it. Might I remind you that he is the one that originally copied the CEO in on the emails. I just replied to all and I probably would have never emailed Ron otherwise. Ultimately he made the choice to alter his business model, whether he was persuaded by the STT guys or not.

And ultimately, the bolded portion is all that matters. His decision.

I'm not saying that you have done anything wrong at all, I'm just pondering the consequences

[vw151]

Now imagine yourself as the consumer of his photography. You will go, you will talk to him, he will tell you about his $60 CD offer but also about the new "see before you buy" offers.

NOBODY will be pre-paying for CDs, or very few people.

This introduces a number of problems for him - the fact that people will spend less by picking out what they want, the fact that potential customers could now spend nothing after seeing his pictures of them (possibly compared to what their buddies got on their 7.2mp Sony), the fact that people put things off and forget when there is time between immediate desire and purchase, etc.

Like I said, in my little economic world, he has probably dropped his revenues with his new pricing structure.

I'll just say this. I was at Barber with 8 people I knew. 5 of which had previously purchased CDs at other track days. None of them bought CDs site unseen from this guy and they all balked about how arrogant and ridiculous it was that he was not willing to let you see the images first. I believe they would have been happy paying that day so long as he was able to show the images that day, otherwise they would have visited his site when the images were available and probably bought a CD after the fact. At this point I don't think they'll go through the effort to even look at his new business model but there is at least a chance where as before at $30 per image they weren't buying.

I understand that as far as statistics go this is a small pool to draw results from but it's all I have, it sure didn't look like the guy was selling very many CDs site unseen at the track. In my opinion I did the guy a favor but who knows. It's not my business and frankly all I gave a shit about was getting what I wanted, sorry if that is selfish and arrogant or whatever. I'm just glad he came around. I wouldn't have been too upset had he not but hey it turned out to be worth the trouble.

So yes, in summary the buying the images sight unseen is the main problem, the 1000% mark up is the second problem. Pretty simple.

[tomin40]

His business model rests (rested?) on the fact that you can't simply look at your favorite picture (or 5 pictures) and buy those for half the price of his full CD of pictures that he offers.

You paid $60, got a bunch of pictures, maybe only 5 worth paying for. Now you pay half price for that.

Unless he doubles his customers, his original business model was probably superior. For him, not the consumer, of course. I think this was Todd's underlying point. Let the dude do what works for him.

Now imagine yourself as the consumer of his photography. You will go, you will talk to him, he will tell you about his $60 CD offer but also about the new "see before you buy" offers.

NOBODY will be pre-paying for CDs, or very few people.

This introduces a number of problems for him - the fact that people will spend less by picking out what they want, the fact that potential customers could now spend nothing after seeing his pictures of them (possibly compared to what their buddies got on their 7.2mp Sony), the fact that people put things off and forget when there is time between immediate desire and purchase, etc.

Like I said, in my little economic world, he has probably dropped his revenues with his new pricing structure.

I think you are making too many assumptions here.

First, you are saying that people are willing to pay $60 for a CD. Especially when they ask "How many pics on that CD are of me?" and the answer is "I have no idea". Many people may say screw it, I its not worth my $60.

Second, you are assuming that he needs double the customers to equal the revenue he would get from $60 a CD. So basic case would be that 10 people choose the CD option, which would be $600. So then you are saying 20 people will need to choose the $30 for 5 images to equal his $600. Some people may chooses only 1 pic, some 4, 5, 10, who knows...

Too many assumptions. If the $60 per CD business model works for him, great. But if he doesn't try a different pricing structure, like the one to VW151, then he may be missing on some potential customers and $$$

[vw151]

And ultimately, the bolded portion is all that matters. His decision.

I'm not saying that you have done anything wrong at all, I'm just pondering the consequences

He seems to think he is devaluing his art.

Cry me a river, he and the record companies need to embrace modern society and the digital media age rather than fight it.

I see you are just playing devil's advocate. I'd love to know if it hurts or helps his business for the sake of argument. I have a feeling he'll never share that with us though.

[Tpoppa]

I happen to own and operate a profitable business and I'll say this:

--Finding reasons not to accept peoples money are bad for business

--Pricing models that aren't clear to customers are bad for business

--The cost less now and cost more later model is not used very often. Airlines use it, and we all know how well they are doing.

Kirk can run his business anyway he sees fit, however, buying pictures sight unseen seems counter intuituve to me. If it were me, I would bring a laptop to the track and let people see pictures that day.

[jagr]

That dude is ghey.

[Fonzie]

Couple points I want to clear up as this conversation unfolds........

--So he was going around in the morning, signing people up for this offer ahead of time, before he even shot the day's event? Sooo.....If no one signs up, does he then cut his loss' for the day & leave, not wasting his investment/capital of time/talent? If that's the case, maybe I understand his stance a bit more

--Everyone's lumped together on this same CD? He doesn't separate out your images only onto your CD? If that's the case...How the heck does he fit all those pix on one disk?

All that said though.....He still sounds like the stereotypical, pretentious, pompous, elitist art snob a$$hole

[Tpoppa]

All that said though.....He still sounds like the stereotypical, pretentious, pompous, elitist art snob a$$hole

There are reasons artists don't usually make good businessmen

[jagr]

And why they starve.

[vw151]

Couple points I want to clear up as this conversation unfolds........

--So he was going around in the morning, signing people up for this offer ahead of time, before he even shot the day's event? Sooo.....If no one signs up, does he then cut his loss' for the day & leave, not wasting his investment/capital of time/talent? If that's the case, maybe I understand his stance a bit more

--Everyone's lumped together on this same CD? He doesn't separate out your images only onto your CD? If that's the case...How the heck does he fit all those pix on one disk?

All that said though.....He still sounds like the stereotypical, pretentious, pompous, elitist art snob a$$hole

He signed people up through out both days and no I don't believe he would have just not shot and cut his losses if no one signed up. He was already invested in being there and he was still offering to sell prints and single images online so he would have to suppor that as well. All of the images are on his site right now and you can click 1 and buy many different prints.

No he doesn't sell you everyone on 1 CD. 1 that wouldn't fit on a CD if it's full res and 2 I could then just buy the CD and split with all my friends. He only sells you pictures of you on the CD.

Yes, I agree he sounds pretentious, pompous arrogant and whatever else, but if you read the emails he claims to have an MBA and be a business man first. Who knows. I just thought he was dumb.

[thomez]

I think you are making too many assumptions here.

First, you are saying that people are willing to pay $60 for a CD. Especially when they ask "How many pics on that CD are of me?" and the answer is "I have no idea". Many people may say screw it, I its not worth my $60.

Second, you are assuming that he needs double the customers to equal the revenue he would get from $60 a CD. So basic case would be that 10 people choose the CD option, which would be $600. So then you are saying 20 people will need to choose the $30 for 5 images to equal his $600. Some people may chooses only 1 pic, some 4, 5, 10, who knows...

Too many assumptions. If the $60 per CD business model works for him, great. But if he doesn't try a different pricing structure, like the one to VW151, then he may be missing on some potential customers and $$$

Saying that he could easily require double the customers to bring in the same revenue is not really an assumption, it's a very probable statement.

I think saying that he needs double the customers is a very generous estimate, he could in fact need well more than that, depending on the average purchase of his consumer. It is very doubtful that the average purchase after viewing the images would be greater than the $30 mark though, in my opinion. That's of course just what it is, an opinion.

As with your example, people could and would choose from his several options, but his median customer would still need to spend $30 or more for him not to require a doubling of his customer base.

You are definitely correct though, the only way he will find out is through some experimentation. Perhaps someday we'll find out how it worked :