Ben Shapiro

[El Karacho1647545492]

I just looked at his wiki, looks like one of my college buddies went to HS with him. VERY closed minded school. Funny how he talks about indoctrination by universities after going to a Yeshiva high school and being majorly pro-Israel. Oh well, no one is safe from hypocrisy.

 

Given how obsessed he is with transgenderism, I think it's pretty safe to assume he likes to dress up like Ann Coulter and get pegged by his wife.

[greg1647545532]

I can't speak for him so his opinion is his own. I will say that for me if you're born with a twig and berries you're a guy. I don't even have a problem with people that can't identify except if you use the medical condition and genetic reasoning then we need to also admit that they're not normal so don't expect everyone else to act like it's normal because it's not.

 

I don't know what you mean by "act like it's normal." If you accept that there are legitimate medical conditions that can result in people wanting to identify as the opposite gender, then all we're asking you is to do is accommodate someone's medical condition. Getting polio isn't "normal" either but we still build ramps for people.

 

I don't go out of my way to push my beliefs on anyone else so I don't appreciate them pushing theirs onto me.

 

Observing that there are medical conditions that result in intersex humans is "pushing their beliefs on you?" Do you not believe that these medical conditions exist? Help me out here, this is something you can see with your own two eyeballs.

 

If being trans is fine with you then have at it.....just don't keep telling me I should accept it because I never will and I won't keep telling you how abnormal you are.

 

So being born with a well-documented sexual development disorder is a choice? Do you refuse to accept people with ALS too? Fucking Lou Gherig, choosing to get a disease just so he could name it after himself....

[RedRocket1647545505]

I don't know what you mean by "act like it's normal." If you accept that there are legitimate medical conditions that can result in people wanting to identify as the opposite gender, then all we're asking you is to do is accommodate someone's medical condition. Getting polio isn't "normal" either but we still build ramps for people.

 

 

 

Observing that there are medical conditions that result in intersex humans is "pushing their beliefs on you?" Do you not believe that these medical conditions exist? Help me out here, this is something you can see with your own two eyeballs.

 

 

 

So being born with a well-documented sexual development disorder is a choice? Do you refuse to accept people with ALS too? Fucking Lou Gherig, choosing to get a disease just so he could name it after himself....

 

I don't deny one bit that there are physical and mental disorders that would cause one to identify as a gender they don't appear to be. I do question, however, the amount of them that seem to have 'come out' in the past ~10 years. Is it really that prevalent and people were hiding it? Is there an actual increase and what's the reasoning for that? Or, is it the trendy thing to do now and people are just using it to get attention?

 

Given the fact that this whole damn country seems to be more and more infatuated with garnering attention towards themselves (read: Facebook), I'm inclined to say it's the latter. This is completely anecdotal and I have no real evidence to support it.

 

Thoughts?

[Geeto67]

Oh well, no one is safe from hypocrisy.

 

that seems to be the conservative theme these days. The school of conservative intellectualism championed by people like William F Buckley, Robert McNamara, and Barry Goldwater are as dead as the men themselves.

 

Shapiro's argument is not new. His delivery is the only differentiating factor - people love it when someone is being an asshole to people and this dude loves being an asshole, he plays to the crowd. In every scenario where he doesn't have a clear opponent he just sets up his straw man made out of stereotypes and then attacks it.

 

But his message is the same garbage message post Reagan conservatism has been pushing for a while:

 

- We have free speech in this country so people who have terrible opinions should have free air time and be free from ridicule no matter how terrible their ideas are.

 

(this one particularly bugs me because it is basically saying I want to be an asshole but you can't treat me like an asshole. Who knew conservatives were such pussies? it sets up this idea that because we have laws against government interference with speech - private citizens are not being very American when they have opinions about other people's opinions. Even though Shapiro isn't part of the Alt Right if you are wondering where the rise in white supremacy in conservatism is coming from it is this general shared ideal among all conservatives).

 

- We have moral standards and if you don't agree with them or are trying to change them then you are a bad person worthy of ridicule

 

(pointed this out before with his transgender argument, he's basically saying it's ok to be an asshole to these people and ignore their place in society because "science" doesn't recognize them except in limited circumstances).

 

- Everyone should act however the feel unless the way you feel requires safe spaces, service animals, or something else that is weird, new age-y, and not tough

(I find it hilarious that most of conservationism gets sold on the image of rugged individualism and being a "tough but fair" person, when so many conservatives are judgemental crybaby assholes when it comes to "touchy-feely" things like this. the idea of "safe spaces" comes from the psychological treatment of veterans and abused children - the goal is to create an environment where a group who feels anxiety from constant attack can feel safe from persecution or marginalization. Outside of formal treatment it was first adopted by the women's movement, then the LGBTQ movement, and is now in use on college campuses because, and here is the shocker, Suicide is the second leading cause of death among college students (car accidents are the first). The premise behind a safe space is simple - don't be an asshole to people but apparently being an asshole is part of that rugged tough guy image conservatism loves to cultivate. It's more important to not be seen as a faggot pussy than it is keep college kids from killing themselves).

 

- "social justice" is an excuse for race baiting.

(he takes a pretty narrow view on the idea of social justice and overuses the stereotype of SJWs to just set up and mock opponents. This is really a distraction and false equivalency technique: the other side must be wrong because 1 or 2 people misuse this term so everyone who associates with is also wrong when they call me a homophobe when I specifically marginalize the LGBT community).

[Geeto67]

Is it really that prevalent and people were hiding it?...

 

Thoughts?

 

yes to some degree. In the past people with these disorders were generally lumped in with other LGBT people and marginalized by American society. If you were a member of this group you were at a higher risk for violent attack, almost unemployable, and often deprived of rights by those charged with enforcing and protecting them. In England it was a crime until 1967, in the US it is still a crime in certain states. In most cases it wasn't based on actual truth in gender - it's more about how effeminate you appear to be as a man or how masculine you appear to be as a woman.

 

add in the progression of science, esp that surronding genes and DNA research that have made great strides in the 20th and 21st century and you can't even compare now to back then without "back then" being viewed as primitive.

[o0n8]

Because the majority of suburban dwellers in America that subscribe to a Judeo-Christian upbringing and world/life view don't see enough evidence that being transgender is anything else than a choice, unless you're watching some really interesting vids on the internet.

 

but yet they'll go to church where no evidence is necessary...

[El Karacho1647545492]

that seems to be the conservative theme these days. The school of conservative intellectualism championed by people like William F Buckley, Robert McNamara, and Barry Goldwater are as dead as the men themselves.

 

Shapiro's argument is not new. His delivery is the only differentiating factor - people love it when someone is being an asshole to people and this dude loves being an asshole, he plays to the crowd. In every scenario where he doesn't have a clear opponent he just sets up his straw man made out of stereotypes and then attacks it.

 

But his message is the same garbage message post Reagan conservatism has been pushing for a while:

 

- We have free speech in this country so people who have terrible opinions should have free air time and be free from ridicule no matter how terrible their ideas are.

 

(this one particularly bugs me because it is basically saying I want to be an asshole but you can't treat me like an asshole. Who knew conservatives were such pussies? it sets up this idea that because we have laws against government interference with speech - private citizens are not being very American when they have opinions about other people's opinions. Even though Shapiro isn't part of the Alt Right if you are wondering where the rise in white supremacy in conservatism is coming from it is this general shared ideal among all conservatives).

 

- We have moral standards and if you don't agree with them or are trying to change them then you are a bad person worthy of ridicule

 

(pointed this out before with his transgender argument, he's basically saying it's ok to be an asshole to these people and ignore their place in society because "science" doesn't recognize them except in limited circumstances).

 

- Everyone should act however the feel unless the way you feel requires safe spaces, service animals, or something else that is weird, new age-y, and not tough

(I find it hilarious that most of conservationism gets sold on the image of rugged individualism and being a "tough but fair" person, when so many conservatives are judgemental crybaby assholes when it comes to "touchy-feely" things like this. the idea of "safe spaces" comes from the psychological treatment of veterans and abused children - the goal is to create an environment where a group who feels anxiety from constant attack can feel safe from persecution or marginalization. Outside of formal treatment it was first adopted by the women's movement, then the LGBTQ movement, and is now in use on college campuses because, and here is the shocker, Suicide is the second leading cause of death among college students (car accidents are the first). The premise behind a safe space is simple - don't be an asshole to people but apparently being an asshole is part of that rugged tough guy image conservatism loves to cultivate. It's more important to not be seen as a faggot pussy than it is keep college kids from killing themselves).

 

- "social justice" is an excuse for race baiting.

(he takes a pretty narrow view on the idea of social justice and overuses the stereotype of SJWs to just set up and mock opponents. This is really a distraction and false equivalency technique: the other side must be wrong because 1 or 2 people misuse this term so everyone who associates with is also wrong when they call me a homophobe when I specifically marginalize the LGBT community).

 

To boil down your argument in an extreme way: "Mental health issues are a form of faggotry and needing any kind of help is un-American."

 

Sort of the modern mutation of one of my favorite sayings, "Some people are born on 3rd base and lead their entire lives thinking they hit a triple."

 

Regarding the latter statement; if your immediate thought is "UGH YOU DON'T KNOW THE STRUGGLES I'VE BEEN THROUGH" you're right, I don't. But the gut reaction should be the same when someone says they need help. Rather than say "I had struggles and pulled myself up by my bootstraps, why can't you?" maybe try to fix that upturned nose and see that some people don't even have the boots to stand in.

[greg1647545532]

Thoughts?

 

The short answer is that, yes, I believe trans people have been hiding it since forever. The push for gay rights over the last 30 years has finally opened the door for them to be accepted by their families and communities. Sometimes.

[Geeto67]

To boil down your argument in an extreme way: "Mental health issues are a form of faggotry and needing any kind of help is un-American."

 

Ronald Reagan and Richard Nixon both saw mental illness and associated psychiatry with Communism (it has been suggested this was a common view in Southern California from 1900 to the 1970's). Nothing more "un-american" than communism (here is a good book on it: https://books.google.com/books?id=QZoRAAAAQBAJ&pg=PT87&lpg=PT87&dq=associated+psychiatry+with+communism+southern+california&source=bl&ots=46_cC67nnk&sig=FHuOLr6p4c8T0fMwzGvQWhRWDA8&hl=en&sa=X&sqi=2&ved=0ahUKEwij5M6Eq_zSAhWsy4MKHeH_Dd0Q6AEIMjAE#v=onepage&q=associated%20psychiatry%20with%20communism%20southern%20california&f=false).

(chapter 5 is particularly relevant)

 

 

"I had struggles and pulled myself up by my bootstraps, why can't you?" maybe try to fix that upturned nose and see that some people don't even have the boots to stand in.

 

agreed. The Bootstraps argument is garbage in and of itself. the "Self made man" in America traces back to Benjamin Franklin. In fact the bootstrap image comes from a letter wrote to him imploring him to write his biography. While he did come from a poor family, he wasn't entirely "self made" his father paid for 2 years education in the clergy and then managed to secure him a very good apprenticeship as a stationer, and then he secured another apprenticeship with his older bother at a printing press.So nepotism is ok if you are a self made man. Ben had other breaks too, for instance he never had to take care of his aging parents - that fell to his sister Jane who once compared poverty to an inescapable prison (and in fact her husband and children spent many years in debtors prison).

 

So the original self made man was someone who had good access to education, got really lucky in finding prospects that paid for his travel, and didn't have to shoulder the responsibility of taking care of a family (although much later in life he did start to take care of his sister Jane). Yup, those modern kids whose educational funding is cut, whose parent's don't have the ability to raise their own station let alone someone else's, and who often have to help support their own families should totally do what Ben Franklin did.

 

Nobody is "Self made". Whatever success any of us has in life comes standing on the shoulders of those who support us whether it be financial, physical, emotional, or as part of a community. Bootstraps is a fairy tale people tell themselves to they can feel better about being lucky, and all those shit jobs and decisions "paid off" - as if their influence and actions had everything to do with it and they were always in control.

[BStowers023]

No, I still don't get it.

 

Being trans is not a choice. And unlike the question of whether or not being gay is a choice, the science that allows us to (sometimes) understand intersex people and people with sexual development disorders is older, better, and like, way more obvious. It should be pretty easy to explain to people that there are people born with vaginas who are raised as girls, but later testing reveals that they have a Y chromosome, non-functional ovaries, male-ish genes, and a hormone balance that's much more in-line with men. This is an actual, observable, documented medical condition, and it seems patently obvious to me that people like that should be allowed to "switch" their gender to the one that more closely matches their internal biology, rather than being the stuck with one they were assigned at birth. Because that's waaaay cheaper than subjecting every newborn infant to a battery of genetic testing, right?

 

And since it's so obvious to me that rights for transgendered people should follow naturally from a basic understanding of medical science, I don't understand people who can't see it my way. It's not enough to say that Ben Shapiro doesn't think gender identity is a thing. Why doesn't he see it?

 

 

 

 

I think you get it more than you know. His argument is based on ignoring that the other side exists. If you think being gay or being trans is a choice, then his argument makes sense, if you don't think it's a choice it falls apart.

 

We can further extrapolate from his position that he might make an exception for people who actually suffer from a medical disorder, but it would have to be a medical diagnosis and not a person deciding to have surgery to cut off captain winkie. Starting to see the rub? It's a moral argument masquerading as a scientific one.

 

What his position infers is that we need a "standard" in society to determine gender and we can default to the scientific standard because it appears to be clear, verifiable, and generally uncontroversial - and therefore we can ignore this other social aspect of it (which is controversial). Therefore if you "choose" to be a woman through elective surgery, society doesn't need to recognize you as a woman because you were born a man (subtext: and they don't agree with that choice) so they are going to disincentive you by regarding you as a man).

 

get it now?

 

Here is something else to think about: if all people have equal rights, then why do we need a standard to determine gender? at all? the answer is we do because we don't have equal rights, and in some cases we need special protection for individuals that society has placed at a disadvantage because of gender (like laws that protect pregnant women from being fired because of maternity leave). He is willing to recognize the Boy Scouts of America can discriminate and allow only males in the organization but conveniently he doesn't want to have the conversation about the social impact of this decision.

 

What Shapiro is really saying is "I don't want to recognize this group because I morally disagree with it" but he is framing the argument so that on it's face it appears like a simple solution. And that's how you know he went to Harvard and is an atty - because he understands and knows how to exploit the difference between disparate impact and disparate treatment that most Americans do not.

 

(cue some CR jackass to make fart noises and tell me my post is too long).

 

 

 

http://i624.photobucket.com/albums/tt325/BStowers023/Alien_zps8k7lzt8x.jpg

 

 

 

http://i624.photobucket.com/albums/tt325/BStowers023/Dragon%20Lady_zpsb6inz2ll.jpg

[Geeto67]

what's your point Brandon? use your words.

[BStowers023]

I'm still trying to figure out if being whatever you want to call yourself is a choice or science. The examples above I prove choice but you guys are claiming science, am I right?

[greg1647545532]

I'm still trying to figure out if being whatever you want to call yourself is a choice or science. The examples above I prove choice but you guys are claiming science, am I right?

 

Being transgendered is not a choice, being active in the body-modification community is. Does that help?

 

Maybe ask why people who have been actively bullied and shunned by society writ large might gravitate towards a community that welcomes "freaks".

[RedRocket1647545505]

Being transgendered is not always a choice, being active in the body-modification community is. Does that help?

 

Maybe ask why people who have been actively bullied and shunned by society writ large might gravitate towards a community that welcomes "freaks".

 

Fixed.

 

Again, while I do agree that a majority arent consciously making a choice, Im sure there are plenty that do.

[BStowers023]

Being transgendered is not a choice, being active in the body-modification community is. Does that help?

 

Maybe ask why people who have been actively bullied and shunned by society writ large might gravitate towards a community that welcomes "freaks".

 

 

I disagree. I don't think being gay is a choice, but claiming you're a female with a penis is a choice. Not every male is genetically the same but that doesn't not make them a male. At what point do we stop making exceptions? Well this guys testosterone levels are far below average, so he's allowed to classify himself as a female.

 

To be honest, I have no issue with anyone calling themselves whatever they want. I think everyone should have the same right as anyone to call themselves what they want and be who they think they are and they shouldn't be punished (by the government) or given any different treatment (by the government) to do so.

 

I'm not even sure why this is an issue? I mean nobody is stopping anyone from being a transgender or cutting their dick off. Do whatever the fuck you want. That's your *RIGHT*. You live in America where you CAN do this. I'm sick of hearing "Equal rights." What more do you want? You live in a country where you can cut your fucking dick off then make Youtube videos telling everyone to call you normal, while there are countries where women get stoned to death for showing their face in public.

 

I think the majority of conservatives don't really care about this issue, they're just sick of the liberals yelling at everyone telling them what they need to believe morally. I would imagine you probably get annoyed by the religious nut jobs that stand at street corners, college campuses and even come to your house to spread the word of God. My thing is, just shut up, do you and move on without throwing a fucking hissy fit every time you don't get your way.

[greg1647545532]

Fixed.

 

Again, while I do agree that a majority arent consciously making a choice, Im sure there are plenty that do.

 

Ok, fine. "Plenty" being a value that you've admitted to sorta pulling out of your ass based on some general idea that you think people are more attention whorish than they used to be.

 

People faking medical conditions for attention is a thing. I think there are probably "plenty" of people who fake needing a wheelchair for the attention. I don't think we should stop building ramps because of them.

[greg1647545532]

I disagree. I don't think being gay is a choice, but claiming you're a female with a penis is a choice. Not every male is genetically the same but that doesn't not make them a male. At what point do we stop making exceptions? Well this guys testosterone levels are far below average, so he's allowed to classify himself as a female.

 

Biology is messy. I can't answer your question, all I can say is that I'm willing to give wide latitude to people based on how messy the biology of gender is and how little we understand it.

 

I think the majority of conservatives don't really care about this issue, they're just sick of the liberals yelling at everyone telling them what they need to believe morally. I would imagine you probably get annoyed by the religious nut jobs that stand at street corners, college campuses and even come to your house to spread the word of God. My thing is, just shut up, do you and move on without throwing a fucking hissy fit every time you don't get your way.

 

You're right, the majority of conservatives don't really care. Neither do the majority of liberals. However, some "family values" conservatives got their goddamn panties in a bunch when some boy at their kids' school wanted to transition and use the girl's room, and now this is a conversation we have to have. Several states have either passed or tried to pass "bathroom bills." Guess which party is behind them? Who, exactly, should just "shut up and move on" in response to those laws? The poor girl who has to use the boys room because she lives in a conservative state? That's a shitty thing to do to a kid with a medical condition. So yeah, I'm not going to shut up about that. Call it a hissy fit if you want, it just seems like the right thing to do.

[BStowers023]

Biology is messy. I can't answer your question, all I can say is that I'm willing to give wide latitude to people based on how messy the biology of gender is and how little we understand it.

 

 

 

You're right, the majority of conservatives don't really care. Neither do the majority of liberals. However, some "family values" conservatives got their goddamn panties in a bunch when some boy at their kids' school wanted to transition and use the girl's room, and now this is a conversation we have to have. Several states have either passed or tried to pass "bathroom bills." Guess which party is behind them? Who, exactly, should just "shut up and move on" in response to those laws? The poor girl who has to use the boys room because she lives in a conservative state? That's a shitty thing to do to a kid with a medical condition. So yeah, I'm not going to shut up about that. Call it a hissy fit if you want, it just seems like the right thing to do.

 

 

Does said girl have a penis?

[greg1647545532]

Does said girl have a penis?

 

I don't know, who should check?

[Geeto67]

Does said girl have a penis?

 

do you want to be the one to check that she does?

 

Edit: Dammit greg...beat me to it again. lol

 

I think the majority of conservatives don't really care about this issue,

 

I don't think this is an accurate statement. It's a Social Conservative platform (i.e. religious right and traditionalists) and since the republican party has been forcing out all the fiscally conservative, socially moderate people as of late that leaves the direction of the social policies to the religious backers and traditionalists. Social Conservatives were the largest supporters of trump during the recent election so whether you want to admit it or not - if you are a conservative in the country backing republicans you are along for this particular ride and for your team making the biggest stink over it. At this point it's bundled with Anti-gay marriage, Anti-Abortion, and anti-pornography which makes it a core issue to Republican Conservative politics in this country.

 

Or to put it more simply - if you are a republican or trump supporter in this country, you care about this issue whether you actually care or not.

[BStowers023]

I don't know, who should check?

 

The parents would know I'm guessing?

 

What about boot camp in the military where it's open showers? They have all male divisions and all female divisions. Maybe add an all transgender division along with the other 30 gender identities?

[greg1647545532]

The parents would know I'm guessing?

 

So turn the lights on 'em? Lie detector? What?

 

You want the state to have the authority to do a genital inspection and/or invasive genetic workups? Doesn't sound small government to me....

 

What about boot camp in the military where it's open showers? They have all male divisions and all female divisions. Maybe add an all transgender division along with the other 30 gender identities?

 

The military is ahead of you on this one.

 

As to facilities subject to regulation by the military, the

Service member will use those berthing, bathroom, and shower facilities associated with the member’s gender marker in DEERS.

 

Been the law of the land since 1 Oct. Just like when the military allowed black people, women, and homosexuals to serve, the sky has not fallen.

[Geeto67]

The parents would know I'm guessing?

 

and if the parents side with the girl who has a penis? what then?

 

 

What about boot camp in the military where it's open showers? They have all male divisions and all female divisions. Maybe add an all transgender division along with the other 30 gender identities?

 

 

Normally I would bring up the rape problem that usually attaches to trans people and bathrooms (as in they are at a higher risk for being raped, not that they commit rape) but the military can't get it's shit together on that front with the two genders it has to manage now.

[BStowers023]

So turn the lights on 'em? Lie detector? What?

 

You want the state to have the authority to do a genital inspection and/or invasive genetic workups? Doesn't sound small government to me....

 

 

The military is ahead of you on this one.

 

 

Been the law of the land since 1 Oct. Just like when the military allowed black people, women, and homosexuals to serve, the sky has not fallen.

 

Now you're putting words in my mouth

 

So women are showering in boot camp with transgenders that have dicks? Would you call the female that doesn't want to shower with said person a bigot?

 

Are we arguing just to argue here? I don't think our views on this topic are all that different other than the fact you think everyone NEEDS to accept it where I believe it's an individuals CHOICE to accept it as "normal."

[Geeto67]

Are we arguing just to argue here? I don't think our views on this topic are all that different other than the fact you think everyone NEEDS to accept it where I believe it's an individuals CHOICE to accept it as "normal."

 

I don't think anybody here is saying anyone "needs" to accept it, just stop advocating that everyone should ignore the issue and stop complaining that your feelings are hurt when you don't and people call you names for it.