Obama administration's health care law unconstitutional, really

[Cheech]

Well, that was grandstanding time we won't get back...

they just don't have enough to get a 2/3 majority, and even if they did once health insurers start kicking cancer patients and college graduates looking for a job off the rolls the backlash will be something to behold. Hopefully I never see it.

[kawi kid]

Reed has said he won't even allow a vote in the senate. Im assuming this is cuz of how many dems are up for re-election in 12. I could be wrong but them standing up for the health care law might be the final nail in the coffin for some of them.

But the media should be touting this as a huge win in bipartisianship since there was a few dens who voted for it too and that was all we heard about prior to the last election.

[fusion]

If only there was some precedent for the gov't forcing Americans to buy stuff like guns or something.

[kawi kid]

Government shouldn't force anyone to do anything.

Name me one thing the government does not tax or regulate in some way.

[Disclaimer]

Government shouldn't force anyone to do anything.

Amen! Think of all the prison costs we'd save....

Name me one thing the government does not tax or regulate in some way.

I'm trying to figure out how "forcing" someone to do something is equivalent to taxing and regulate it?

I think we've shown that people in general are idiots (may have something to do with the avg. educational level being around high school -- jussayin') so if we let the "free market" dicate what people wanted, we'd probably end up with 40 different colors of Snuggies instead of firetrucks and ambulances.

[fusion]

Government shouldn't force anyone to do anything.

The framers thought otherwise. A little light on our 2nd Amendment history are we?

[fusion]

That falls under the militia powers' date=' not commerce. Also, before we had a standing army.[/quote']

Which was what the 2nd was about...not having a standing militia, they were mostly opposed to it. That doesn't change the fact the Gov't passed a law requiring private citizens to buy products from private companies.

[fusion]

So' date=' do you think that kind of behavior is acceptable? Do you really feel Americans ought to be 'strongly coerced' into buying something they don't want or need?[/quote']

Did I say that? Don't confuse arguing facts with arguing a position. That's how I get labeled a liberal around here.

[fusion]

I'm not confusing anything. I asked a question. I didn't label. So' date=' what's your answer?[/quote']

Your tone was assuming of a position and not just asking a question.

My answer is that in a large majority of cases my answer is no. Am I willing to say 100% of the time the gov't should never ever compel a private citizen from buying something from a private company, of course not. That would be ridiculous. Things are much more complicated then people often consider. I'm sure there are some rare cases where it may be reasonable.

In this case I'm willing to say no as well. It's a shame the GOP side of the aisle was too busy saying No to everything in lock step (fuggin' sheep) instead of working to find a real compromise, not just flining BS they are going to vote against anyway. It's also a shame the Dems (fuggin' pussies) didn't use their majority to force the GOP into working with them to find something reasonable everyone could live with.

There's zero question the healthcare system is broken.

[kawi kid]

I'm trying to figure out how "forcing" someone to do something is equivalent to taxing and regulate it?

I think we've shown that people in general are idiots (may have something to do with the avg. educational level being around high school -- jussayin') so if we let the "free market" dicate what people wanted, we'd probably end up with 40 different colors of Snuggies instead of firetrucks and ambulances.

I was just relating how I believe the government is involved on our lives to much. I don't want the great nanny state that some others feel is acceptable or needed.

[fusion]

I was just relating how I believe the government is involved on our lives to much. I don't want the great nanny state that some others feel is acceptable or needed.

Like the GOP or Tea Baggers?

[kawi kid]

Your tone was assuming of a position and not just asking a question.

My answer is that in a large majority of cases my answer is no. Am I willing to say 100% of the time the gov't should never ever compel a private citizen from buying something from a private company, of course not. That would be ridiculous. Things are much more complicated then people often consider. I'm sure there are some rare cases where it may be reasonable.

In this case I'm willing to say no as well. It's a shame the GOP side of the aisle was too busy saying No to everything in lock step (fuggin' sheep) instead of working to find a real compromise, not just flining BS they are going to vote against anyway. It's also a shame the Dems (fuggin' pussies) didn't use their majority to force the GOP into working with them to find something reasonable everyone could live with.

There's zero question the healthcare system is broken.

I agree.

[kawi kid]

Like the GOP or Tea Baggers?

You just wanted to say tea baggers lol

[fusion]

You just wanted to say tea baggers lol

Damn you got me

[fusion]

You shouldn't be so defensive. I would't give a good God damn if you think compulsory military service is a good idea. You're not even a real person. You're on the internet. You're probably not even a real girl.. so' date=' what's it to me?

[/quote']

I can't believe this! I thought you cared! Bastard!

You say the health care system is broken. I'm wondering how' date=' since my health care is absolutely brilliant. I may say things a bit differently... like, my quality and cost of care is far better now having ditched standard medical insurance. I believe a huge factor is the type of insurance Americans purchase, or are led to believe they need. Also, paying for a doctor visit with insurance is absolutely retarded. You don't fix your car's brakes with insurance. You write a check. If it's a major fix.. you can use 'repair insurance'. Americans are far too beholden to their insurance companies. This gives the insurance companies power over them. The main reason insurance is so expensive is because nobody cares how much it costs, since they weren't paying for it. For a long time our employers paid for it. WTF did we care how much it was? We weren't writing the checks. Now, it's so out of hand that the cost has to be split in a manner that 'Makes Hulk Angry!@!!!1!1'... we're a disgusting bunch of spoiled assholes.[/quote']

You wonder how and then dive into insurance costs. No matter the reason you realize there might be some problems there with that part alone then.

And you're right, we are "a disgusting bunch of spoiled assholes." Welcome to capitalism and everyone trying get theres.

[Disclaimer]

Yeah.. cost is a big problem' date=' but you can't scream at the insurance company or the doctors for that. What is driving the cost? [b']Consumers drive the cost. What are we doing wrong that we need to fix?

I don't agree with this as it pertains to the healthcare field, excluding any torts, which are a minimal part of the total cost drivers.

People don't go to the doctor because they WANT to - at least the majority of people I know, but then again I don't really hangout with a bunch of drama queen hypocondriacs.

[fusion]

Yeah.. cost is a big problem' date=' but you can't scream at the insurance company or the doctors for that. What is driving the cost? Consumers drive the cost. What are we doing wrong that we need to fix?[/quote']

I agree. People need to do more to help control costs and I think the first best step is making it less employer based and more employee based when it comes to paying for healthcare. Once people actually have to see the money coming out of their pockets costs will hopefully start becoming more reasonable for some.

I'm sure insurance is only part. I haven't put too much thought into what the other areas of healthcare problems are so I'm not sure what else needs attention.

Personally I don't have any issues with healthcare. I realize though that there may be others who have problems I don't, or may not ever, have.

[Disclaimer]

I really want to get into this because it's going to be a slow day, but I don't know if I have the energy for it. I'll give it a shot.

Capitalism is based on profit motive, the drivers for the profit motive in this instance are the doctors (for a salary), hospitals (save for the "non-profits") and the insurance companies. Not only that, but it's not a true market when prices are hidden from the consumer -- how much does an appendectomy cost? Do you know? How many hospitals and doctors have you quoted? What if you used insurance or just paid cash? All this data is "hidden" from the consumer -- so there is no true "free market" it's a regional oligopoly, or if you want to use a more sinister term - a cartel.

But sure, maybe consumers have SOME culpability, but it's usually the consumers who have no consequence for their use of the system. A lot of middle class Americans have copays or HSAs (like you and me) -- there are financial consequences to visit a doctor (though a lot of the copays aren't a real deterrent). The problem consumers are the uber-rich and the poor (Medicaid, etc) who has highly subsidized care. We can't stop the rich since any rules we put on them we're putting on ourselves since so many of us aspire to be rich, and one of these days we'll all get there, I'm sure . So, we're left with the poor. How do we deter them from overburdening the system? We should quit subsidizing care and just let them suffer I suppose? I dunno -- how do you want to handle that?

[Disclaimer]

We have Medicaid/Medicare for the poor. Why not just improve that? Oh' date=' that's right.. our government keeps taking money from those programs to "balance the budget" and look good. [/quote']

But that's "socialized medicine" as is the entire VA system....

Yes' date=' Capitalism is profit based, but you can't tell me that companies don't alter their practices when consumers stop buying their products. I know that my doctor charges me less than he charges a customer with insurance. My last office visit was $24. Is this the norm? Probably not, but why can't it be? If I, with my wee-little conservative pea brain, can do it.. why can't the rest of them? I'm just not in the lot of "it's the doctors"... because it's not. If doctors didn't have insurance companies to inflate their salaries, they'd be driving Acura instead of Mercedes... like the rest of us. (or maybe a Subaru??)[/quote']

I guess I'm missing the takeaway here -- so you have an office visit for $24, but someone will insurance he charges more? What's that have to do with the supply/demand situation? My office visits are free and I still don't go to the doctor. I don't understand what point you're trying to make? Insurance is bad? All doctors should handle patients on a case-by-case basis hoping they'll pay? Do you pay your $24 before your visit or after? If I don't know you or your financial situation from Adam, why would I even treat you if I don't know if you can pay?

[Disclaimer]

Do you pay your plumber before he fixes your toilet? Do you pay your mechanic before he fixes your car? Don't be a twat.

I dunno I do all of that myself... but besides that point, mechanical things are different than organic things. That's why I can't use my engineering degree to qualify as a surgeon. Not an equivalent comparison. Additionally -- usually, someone can judge your ability to pay by the car you drive or the home you live in or the clothes you wear. Right, wrong or indifferent, that's how the world works. And you're just swapping the hassle of dealing with insurance, with the hassle of people with bad credit histories.

[Disclaimer]

Personally? No, I don't judge a book by it's cover... because I didn't grow up that way. I live well below my means and don't dress or act the part of "keeping up with the Joneses" mainly because I could give two sh*ts about how someone else wants to live THEIR life (unless they start complaining about something that's totally within their sphere of influence) -- I'm just saying that many people do judge others which is why we live in a culture where that 'illusion of wealth' exists. The fact you even alluded to that shows how out-of-control Americans are.

And I'm sure your doctor WOULD rather have a check, but if I was in his position, my trust issues would say "Cash or credit card" -- because it's worth the 2-3% that VISA/Mastercard charges for me not to have to hassle with deadbeats. Like "bad credit" insurance. I guess your doctor is more trusting than I am of people, maybe he hasn't been burned a lot? Or, maybe in his position, there's some revenge or 'personal justice' he can enact in order to deter that behavior? I dunno. I don't talk to doctors -- Like I said, I don't even go to the one that I already pay for.

Edited January 21, 2011 by JRMMiii

[Disclaimer]

Moar power to you. Glad your business 'handshake' model is working out for you, that's pretty much a lost business model because of society now -- which is a shame. I just hope you dont' find yourself in a position where someone takes advantage of that model.

I'm not scared of a lot of things, but I guess I have succumbed to the phobia that people are self-interested and would take advantage of me if I didn't protect myself from that exposure. YMMV, obviously.

Maybe it's my musk? They smell a tinge of liberal and just assume I want to give handouts? I need some conservo-cologne.

[cg2112]

You say the health care system is broken. I'm wondering how' date=' since my health care is absolutely brilliant. I may say things a bit differently... like, my quality and cost of care is far better now having ditched standard medical insurance. I believe a huge factor is the type of insurance Americans purchase, or are led to believe they need. Also, paying for a doctor visit with insurance is absolutely retarded. You don't fix your car's brakes with insurance. You write a check. If it's a major fix.. you can use 'repair insurance'. Americans are far too beholden to their insurance companies. This gives the insurance companies power over them. The main reason insurance is so expensive is because nobody cares how much it costs, since they weren't paying for it. For a long time our employers paid for it. WTF did we care how much it was? We weren't writing the checks. Now, it's so out of hand that the cost has to be split in a manner that 'Makes Hulk Angry!@!!!1!1'... we're a disgusting bunch of spoiled assholes.[/quote']

Health insurance is not "insurance" in the way that auto insurance is "insurance."

Health insurance is really a health care plan. They exist because the cost of regular health care is prohibitively expensive. It may seem "retarded" to you to pay for doctors visits with insurance, but it doesn't seem so "retarded" when you have a child that requires many doctors appointments in the course of a year, or if you have three or four kids.

We're not "spoiled." Far from it. Health care in this country is more expensive than in any other. Our taxes pay more for health care than the most socialist of socialist states, and our out of pocket expenses for health care are massive compared to every other country on earth. And yet, despite the fact that we pay more, both in taxes and in case, than any other country on the planet, we don't have the best health care. Far from it, as a matter of fact. That's not "spoiled." That's "broken."

[cg2112]

He charges the insurance company more. The insured person pays whatever their co-pay is' date=' if they even have one. I'm saying he charges more to cover the cost of billing the insurance company to get his money. .[/quote']

That's almost never true. A doctors pretty much always charges and insurance company less, not more.

An insurance company negotiates rates with doctors and networks. Doctors don't get to choose what they charge insurance companies, and the rate that insurance companies pay is almost always less than the regular fees. It's a trade off - the doctor accepts a particular insurance and bills at a lower rate, and in return, he has increased business.

[20thGix]

That's almost never true. A doctors pretty much always charges and insurance company less, not more.

An insurance company negotiates rates with doctors and networks. Doctors don't get to choose what they charge insurance companies, and the rate that insurance companies pay is almost always less than the regular fees. It's a trade off - the doctor accepts a particular insurance and bills at a lower rate, and in return, he has increased business.

I was on my company's group plan 2 years ago when i had my son. The total bill from the hospital was around $22,000 (hospital + c-section). Currently we are looking into having another child. I have changed insurance to a private HSA since. So i have been calling the hospital trying to find out how much they charge for having a child. Being that having a HSA you pay for more things with cash. So they tell me that a normal delivery is $3250 if payed up front. Being that the wife needs a c-section it is about $3000 more on top of that. The prices qouted to me by the hospital are for people that are not using insurance or any kind of assistance. Cash up front only. An almost $16,000 difference.

Also my mother-in-law does billing for an optometrist and she says there are two different prices for the same service. One for those with insurance and another for those paying cash. Guess which one is lower?

But my son's doctor charges $75ish for wellness check-up's which my insurance pays 100% no co-pay. Now if he's sick i pay 100% and charged me $120 for the visit. That is something i still need to haggle with them about.

Im a firm believer that somewhat normal routine health care is cheaper to pay right out of your pocket. No need to pay huge premiums for basic health coverage.