My brain just exploded!

[magley64]

What would happen to you if you illegally entered Canada? You'd be arrested and deported with fines and a jail sentence waiting for you back here. Why should Mexicans and Cubans expect any less?

If i were homeless, the US were overrun with corruption, crime and poverty, I might give that a shot... maybe I'd get caught, maybe I wouldn't.

[Pokey]

2 examples... since you took away speeding

Drug possession for one... if frank wants to smoke a joint, or snort a line, or shoot up on his couch in his living room, he should have every right to do that... who's the victim?

Homeless Joe shmo crosses the border with his family from mexico to california, and gets a job picking oranges... Who did he hurt? Not the orange farmer...

He just improved his situation, gave his children a better life than they had. His new income of $2 a bushel allows him to feed his family...and allows farmer frank to get his oranges to market efficiently. Makes oranges more abundant, and now everyone can afford oranges.

Marijuana is harmless as far as I am concerned "even good for certain ailments", although not while operating a vehicle on the public roads. Now I know that you are certainly not right in the head, when you say that snorting a line or shooting up "hard drugs" isn't hurting anybody. Who is the victim......my wife working in the ER is one victim, the family members of the addict are victims, we the taxpayers are victims, the owners of businesses and homes that get robbed to support the addicts habit/addiction are all victims.

As for the orange farmers, hell yeah they benefit from that and so do the illegals sending money back home. And is a natural born citizen who has lived their entire life in the USA better than those who are not and come here? No they/we are no better, but we are certainly supposed to have the upper hand and more benefits than those who are not. Like I have said before, I believe you think that everyone has a right to do pretty much whatever, and as long as you "think and believe" that it doesnt affect YOU....you are fine with it. I thought you were intelligent, you want a lawless society with few restrictions because you believe humans are capable of making good decisions on their own. You are EXTREMELY irrational, and if I am right you are also young and naive. If the majority of this country thought as you do, we would no longer exist as a civilized country. If you are under 30 years old, me thinks you have allot of growing up to do.

[Pokey]

If i were homeless, the US were overrun with corruption, crime and poverty, I might give that a shot... maybe I'd get caught, maybe I wouldn't.

Newsflash......we are!!!!!

[buildit]

If i were homeless, the US were overrun with corruption, crime and poverty, I might give that a shot... maybe I'd get caught, maybe I wouldn't.

So you're okay with breaking the law? Just need a good enough excuse I see. Easier to run away from the problem that to be part of the solution? Your flying elbows just went silly putty on you.

Your virtues are weak and unsubstantiated by you willingness to become a criminal when the cards aren't in your favor. Lets hope your virtues in the business world are better than your personal virtues. Does your boss know you are such a weak link to their high standards?

"But transferring Iranian funds is a victimless crime" thought the banker.

[magley64]

Marijuana is harmless as far as I am concerned "even good for certain ailments", although not while operating a vehicle on the public roads. Now I know that you are certainly not right in the head, when you say that snorting a line or shooting up "hard drugs" isn't hurting anybody. Who is the victim......my wife working in the ER is one victim,

so you agree with my premise, but not all of the conclusions that follow, so be it... your wife has job security, the more people going to the ER, the fatter their budget gets... job security. If nobody used the ER, it would be de-funded and your wife would be looking for a job.. right?

the family members of the addict are victims, we the taxpayers are victims, the owners of businesses and homes that get robbed to support the addicts habit/addiction are all victims.

Who said anything about stealing? the imaginary person in this scenario has his own orange farm, and he's a casual user. He didn't steal from anyone, he bought his drugs with his own money that otherwise would have been spent on gasoline or just sat in his bank account.

As for the orange farmers, hell yeah they benefit from that and so do the illegals sending money back home. And is a natural born citizen who has lived their entire life in the USA better than those who are not and come here?

again, supports those people, harms nobody.

No they/we are no better, but we are certainly supposed to have the upper hand and more benefits than those who are not.

why are you so concerned with what everyone else has or does? are you happy with what you have? If no, go get more. If yes, what the hell are you complaining about?

Like I have said before, I believe you think that everyone has a right to do pretty much whatever, and as long as you "think and believe" that it doesnt affect YOU....you are fine with it. I thought you were intelligent, you want a lawless society with few restrictions because you believe humans are capable of making good decisions on their own.

And I'll stand by that, Most are...

I think liberty should be preserved above all else, freedom is what it's all about. If we don't have freedom, then what are we doing here?

You are EXTREMELY irrational, and if I am right you are also young and naive. If the majority of this country thought as you do, we would no longer exist as a civilized country. If you are under 30 years old, me thinks you have allot of growing up to do.

I'm plenty rational, and I'm good with being optimistic, I'd rather be a disappointed optimist than a satisfied pessimist any day of the week.

[Pokey]

Never mentioned how old you are, and yes you are irrational and extremely naive and sheltered as to what you think is going on in the real world. You wish for a world that just doesn't exist, I am only an optimist for so much. Life liberty and the pursuit of happiness has boundaries, rules and laws.....without that we would not exist as a civilized society. Do you have rules, standards and regulations that you must abide by at your place of employment, do you have an issue with that? Your way of thinking will create pure anarchy, you just can't see and believe that. And have you ever heard of the saying "he is book smart but world dumb", well you are looking to be that man.

[magley64]

Newsflash......we are!!!!!

If fox news would have you believe every headline they've written, sure...

So you're okay with breaking the law? Just need a good enough excuse I see. Easier to run away from the problem that to be part of the solution? Your flying elbows just went silly putty on you.

Your virtues are weak and unsubstantiated by you willingness to become a criminal when the cards aren't in your favor. Lets hope your virtues in the business world are better than your personal virtues. Does your boss know you are such a weak link to their high standards?

Sure, the law is there for a purpose, but the purpose isn't always a valid one... for example school zones have speed limits that are extremely low to protect children from being hit by speeding cars, if there is no school in session, yet the timered speed limit signs are still lit, that's an invalid reason for a law. (I.E there aren't children there)

My willingness to break the law is apparent every time I throw my leg over my bike and thumb the starter. Who do I hurt? Nobody, my breaking the law infringes on nobody else, so nobody else should make it their concern.

As for my supervisors, I doubt they care very much what my opinion is in such matters. As long as I get my job done to their satisfaction, they are happy campers.

Never mentioned how old you are, and yes you are irrational and extremely naive and sheltered as to what you think is going on in the real world. You wish for a world that just doesn't exist, I am only an optimist for so much. Life liberty and the pursuit of happiness has boundaries, rules and laws.....without that we would not exist as a civilized society. Do you have rules, standards and regulations that you must abide by at your place of employment, do you have an issue with that? Your way of thinking will create pure anarchy, you just can't see and believe that. And have you ever heard of the saying "he is book smart but world dumb", well you are looking to be that man.

28, if it matters...

I have standards, values, and principles... but I find it most important that my freedoms don't infringe on you, and your freedoms don't infringe on me... All is fair beyond that IMO...

If it doesn't concern you, keep your nose out of it.

[Reimbrandt]

Why waste the man poweron the machine guns when there are land mines......and yes i am seriuos. There has to be some means to protect this country. And since your gonna get all snarky at me for making a observation, YES, i do value myself more. I AM A TAX PAYN LAW ABIDING AMERiCAN CITIZEN........ If your family is in a crap country and you want better there are ligit ways to do it and thats how it should be done. pERIOD..... So you kill farm subsidies and screw all the others who dont dont anythng wrong? And weed should be legalized..... Its a retarded reason for overcrowding in jail.......

[buildit]

I think liberty should be preserved above all else, freedom is what it's all about. If we don't have freedom, then what are we doing here?

How do you feel if someone you don't know hops on your bike and pushes it around a parking lot then parks it somewhere else without asking and without you being there? I don't know anyone who thinks that is cool, cute or funny. Did it harm your bike? No. Did it violate your rights to property and freedom. YES There is an expectation of the actions of others not infringing upon you or your property. Does that mean I come out gun drawn and blow them off the seat? No, but it certainly might warrant a firm warning, some verbal intimidation and calling the police if they don't stop.

My rights to freedom do not trump yours and visa versa. It is a give and take balancing act that requires laws and boundries to keep morons like you from taking liberties at my or others expense.

[buildit]

Why waste the man poweron the machine guns when there are land mines......and yes i am seriuos. There has to be some means to protect this country. And since your gonna get all snarky at me for making a observation, YES, i do value myself more. I AM A TAX PAYN LAW ABIDING AMERiCAN CITIZEN........ If your family is in a crap country and you want better there are ligit ways to do it and thats how it should be done. pERIOD..... So you kill farm subsidies and screw all the others who dont dont anythng wrong? And weed should be legalized..... Its a retarded reason for overcrowding in jail.......

Land mines are illegal to use under Geneva Convention rules. I disagree with their use because they endanger both friend and foe. A border patrol vehicle hitting one is just as likely to die as an illegal crossing the border.

If people stopped using drugs in the US it would take away a lot of the violence but "Mangled" says' it is a victimless crime.

[magley64]

Why waste the man poweron the machine guns when there are land mines......and yes i am seriuos. There has to be some means to protect this country.

Oh, okay... I'm not claiming to be more compassionate than that, but I'm willing to bet most people are...and mexican children missing limbs and deformed because of American land mines is gonna make for a hell of a headline.

And since your gonna get all snarky at me for making a observation, YES, i do value myself more. I AM A TAX PAYN LAW ABIDING AMERiCAN CITIZEN........

Want a cookie? hooray for an accident of birth in your favor...

If your family is in a crap country and you want better there are ligit ways to do it and thats how it should be done. pERIOD.....

yeah, tell me how a poor homeless family that is starving can afford all of the classes, permits, and documentation it takes to come here legally, even if it were free, they might starve in the process of waiting...

So you kill farm subsidies and screw all the others who dont dont anythng wrong?

they are getting money for free from the government... they have a business, let them run it, isn't that what the free market is supposed to be about? isn't it this exactly the type of government welfare you guys are constantly bitching about?

And weed should be legalized..... Its a retarded reason for overcrowding in jail.......

so you agree that some laws are invalid... interesting.

[magley64]

How do you feel if someone you don't know hops on your bike and pushes it around a parking lot then parks it somewhere else without asking and without you being there?

I don't think theft is quite victimless...

In your example, they stole by bike, and I later recovered it...

I don't know anyone who thinks that is cool, cute or funny. Did it harm your bike? No. Did it violate your rights to property and freedom. YES There is an expectation of the actions of others not infringing upon you or your property.

I haven't included theft in any of my examples, so far as I remember

My rights to freedom do not trump yours and visa versa. It is a give and take balancing act that requires laws and boundries to keep morons like you from taking liberties at my or others expense.

I don't think the name calling was necessary, but I agree with most of what you posted here.

[TRMN8TR]

Sure, the law is there for a purpose, but the purpose isn't always a valid one... for example school zones have speed limits that are extremely low to protect children from being hit by speeding cars, if there is no school in session, yet the timered speed limit signs are still lit, that's an invalid reason for a law. (I.E there aren't children there)

I normally don't ever get involved with these kinds of threads/posts. But man, you sure are missing the point. You're arguing just to argue, and your comparison is so fare off I don't even know where to start. Like speeding in a school zone when there are no children is even remotely close to entering a country illegally so you can rape and pillage said country of its resources? Just because the revolving door of our border is flowing equally both ways doesn't mean illegal imigration has slowed, it just means there are as many who are finished raping and pillaging resources and ready to return as there are those that are coming in to start.

If it doesn't concern you, keep your nose out of it.

Sadly, this whole ordeal does concern you. But because it isn't directly in front of you and affecting you immediately, who cares right? But if the immigrants were coming from Canada, breaking into houses in your neighborhood, smuggling drugs into NE Ohio (which I'm starting to think you might be ok with) then it might be something that concerned you?

[TRMN8TR]

yeah, tell me how a poor homeless family that is starving can afford all of the classes, permits, and documentation it takes to come here legally, even if it were free, they might starve in the process of waiting...

So we should just open our borders to all poor, homeless families from all countries. We will let them work here without paying any taxes, give them free healthcare, and aid for food and shelter. Cause hey, you said it, you live a better life than them and your taxes aren't that bad.

I feel sorry for these people too, but its not my fault that "an accident of birth" was not in their favor...

[Pokey]

You are 28, now it all makes perfect sense. No offense to anyone under 28 on the forum that doesn't have or agree with the thought process and or lack of life experiences you posses. For every action there is a reaction, does that make any sense to you? Your employer must be so lucky to have you as an employee, sure they would be very interested in how you really think about them. I could just picture you joining in on the Occupy Wall street and May Day protesting, you would fit in nicely with them me thinks.

[magley64]

I normally don't ever get involved with these kinds of threads/posts. But man, you sure are missing the point. You're arguing just to argue, and your comparison is so fare off I don't even know where to start. Like speeding in a school zone when there are no children is even remotely close to entering a country illegally so you can rape and pillage said country of its resources?

Wait, wut? who's raping and pillaging? over-dramatic much?

Just because the revolving door of our border is flowing equally both ways doesn't mean illegal imigration has slowed, it just means there are as many who are finished raping and pillaging resources and ready to return as there are those that are coming in to start.

Apparently you're going to have to define this raping and pillaging business..

Sadly, this whole ordeal does concern you. But because it isn't directly in front of you and affecting you immediately, who cares right? But if the immigrants were coming from Canada, breaking into houses in your neighborhood, smuggling drugs into NE Ohio (which I'm starting to think you might be ok with) then it might be something that concerned you?

The war on drugs is a lie, total bullshit and a waste of our money and resources.

B+E i have an issue with, but I could give a rats ass what country the person doing the B+E is from

So we should just open our borders to all poor, homeless families from all countries. We will let them work here without paying any taxes, give them free healthcare, and aid for food and shelter. Cause hey, you said it, you live a better life than them and your taxes aren't that bad.

I feel sorry for these people too, but its not my fault that "an accident of birth" was not in their favor...

In a way, yes. I suggest we let in people who are productive, and intelligent, they pay taxes just like anyone else who works for that same company, sales tax, income tax (unless that company pays under the table, then any American working for them would be doing the same thing)

You are 28, now it all makes perfect sense. No offense to anyone under 28 on the forum that doesn't have or agree with the thought process and or lack of life experiences you posses. For every action there is a reaction, does that make any sense to you? Your employer must be so lucky to have you as an employee, sure they would be very interested in how you really think about them. I could just picture you joining in on the Occupy Wall street and May Day protesting, you would fit in nicely with them me thinks.

Why do you keep going back to my employer?

I think my employer is pretty pleased with the job I do...

What else matters to them other than I'm doing the duties they assigned me to do?

I agree with your premise that actions have consequences...

[TRMN8TR]

Wait, wut? who's raping and pillaging? over-dramatic much? Apparently you're going to have to define this raping and pillaging business..

Raping and pillaging of resources. Coming into this country, stealing our resources. Examples...healthcare, driving on our roads maintained by people who we pay with taxes, and the general stealing of our jobs. Of course they are willing to do these jobs for much less because they're working under the table, not driving legally (or at all) and not paying into any of the systems of which they are stealing from. Over-dramatic was the goal. Are they actually raping people? No thats not what I mean.

The war on drugs is a lie, total bullshit and a waste of our money and resources.

B+E i have an issue with, but I could give a rats ass what country the person doing the B+E is from

Again you're missing the point. I don't care where they come from either. The point that I'm making is, you don't care about the drugs or the B+E because it isn't happening to you directly. But had they been coming from the other border and entering your neck of the woods, how would you feel about it then?

In a way, yes. I suggest we let in people who are productive, and intelligent, they pay taxes just like anyone else who works for that same company, sales tax, income tax (unless that company pays under the table, then any American working for them would be doing the same thing)

Thats the problem, are you going to screen them all and only let in the productive, intelligent ones? And if they're paying taxes like the rest of us, then I don't have an issue with it either. But, if they're here illegally they don't pay taxes. And that is the debate we're talking about right? Illegal immigrants with no work visa?

[magley64]

Raping and pillaging of resources. Coming into this country, stealing our resources. Examples...healthcare, driving on our roads maintained by people who we pay with taxes, and the general stealing of our jobs. Of course they are willing to do these jobs for much less because they're working under the table, not driving legally (or at all) and not paying into any of the systems of which they are stealing from. Over-dramatic was the goal. Are they actually raping people? No thats not what I mean.

if they are driving then they are paying road tax.... or do they say at the gas station "sir please drop the price 50 cents, I'm an illegal, so i'm not paying taxes"

If they buy food or clothing they are paying sales tax.

If they are providing fake social security numbers to work somewhere then they are paying income taxes and social security tax (of which they won't receive any refund or payment)

The only thing they aren't paying is property tax (because they don't own property).

what taxes are they supposedly dodging?

and how are they raping and pillaging, do they steal the roads and take them back to mexico? Do they dismantle the bridges and put them on their imaginary trucks? are they stealing high tension power lines and kidnapping air traffic controllers to direct their planes?

Again you're missing the point. I don't care where they come from either. The point that I'm making is, you don't care about the drugs or the B+E because it isn't happening to you directly. But had they been coming from the other border and entering your neck of the woods, how would you feel about it then?

Drugs I still don't care, do all the drugs you want, it's your body.

B+E is again, destruction/theft of property, something I disagree with regardless of what country you're from.

Thats the problem, are you going to screen them all and only let in the productive, intelligent ones? And if they're paying taxes like the rest of us, then I don't have an issue with it either. But, if they're here illegally they don't pay taxes. And that is the debate we're talking about right? Illegal immigrants with no work visa?

Then why not let everyone in, and then send violent criminals to a prison colony in Antarctica somewhere? Edited August 15, 2012 by magley64

[jbot]

hence forth, i will name thee Magleyto, for sucking people into arguing with you with your unique brand of derpology

i am genuinely impressed you managed to snag someone like brandon into jumping into the fray.

[magley64]

it's a simple bit of maneuvering

1. state opinion

2. wait

3. quote in context with argument

4. find parallels to real world issues

5. lather

6. rinse

7. repeat

[TRMN8TR]

if they are driving then they are paying road tax.... or do they say at the gas station "sir please drop the price 50 cents, I'm an illegal, so i'm not paying taxes"

If they buy food or clothing they are paying sales tax.

If they are providing fake social security numbers to work somewhere then they are paying income taxes and social security tax (of which they won't receive any refund or payment)

The only thing they aren't paying is property tax (because they don't own property).

what taxes are they supposedly dodging?

That would be great if what you were talking about was true. But a majority of them don't have fake social security numbers, they don't pay income taxes, they don't have drivers licenses so they don't pay DMV, registration, insurance, and all the other fees associated with driving besides gas. Is gas the only cost of owning your vehicles that you have? No. But somehow they are all getting around on our roads. And working at jobs. How? ILLEGALLY. Shocker I know. Maybe 1 of the bunch actually has a fake ssn, and gets a license and totes the rest of them around. Does that make it right? NO. The rest of them couldn't afford to work for $5/hr under the table if they had to pay taxes like the rest of us.

Drugs I still don't care, do all the drugs you want, it's your body.

B+E is again, destruction/theft of property, something I disagree with regardless of what country you're from.

Because drug dealers and drug addicts are usually outstanding citizens who would never commit a B+E. (I'm not talking your casual pot smoker, which is what you assume all drug users are) Do you really not think that heroin, crack heads and other addicts of the drugs these people are bringing in are not a problem and burden on our society? (Notice I left meth-heads out on purpose. I'm not saying Americans can't be drug dealers either...)

Then why not let everyone in, and then send violent criminals to a prison colony in Antarctica somewhere?

Because then we would have to pay even more taxes to support even more police, detectives, prosecutors, assistant prosecutors, and judges, and build bigger courthouses and jail cells to hold them all while we determine that they are guilty beyond a reasonable doubt of violent crimes. And why don't we send the criminals to a prison colony in Antarctica? Because one doesn't exist and it's not politically correct.

[TRMN8TR]

it's a simple bit of maneuvering

1. state opinion

2. wait

3. quote in context with argument

4. find parallels to real world issues

5. lather

6. rinse

7. repeat

8. If arguments and parallels make me look stupid, act like I'm just stirring the pot

fify

[TRMN8TR]

hence forth, i will name thee Magleyto, for sucking people into arguing with you with your unique brand of derpology

i am genuinely impressed you managed to snag someone like brandon into jumping into the fray.

I know, its a bit like arguing with a retarded younger brother. He doesn't make any sense, but its still fun to argue with him.

[magley64]

That would be great if what you were talking about was true. But a majority of them don't have fake social security numbers, they don't pay income taxes, they don't have drivers licenses so they don't pay DMV, registration, insurance, and all the other fees associated with driving besides gas. Is gas the only cost of owning your vehicles that you have? No. But somehow they are all getting around on our roads. And working at jobs. How? ILLEGALLY. Shocker I know. Maybe 1 of the bunch actually has a fake ssn, and gets a license and totes the rest of them around. Does that make it right? NO. The rest of them couldn't afford to work for $5/hr under the table if they had to pay taxes like the rest of us.

you don't have to pay registration or insurance either if you don't own a car, you could ride in someone else's car for free, so forget about the 5 other dudes carpooling, they could carpool with anyone.

now the guy with the fake social and the license and the car... that guy is paying taxes same as you, right?

and I know plenty of people who have survived on less than $5 an hour...

Because drug dealers and drug addicts are usually outstanding citizens who would never commit a B+E. (I'm not talking your casual pot smoker, which is what you assume all drug users are) Do you really not think that heroin, crack heads and other addicts of the drugs these people are bringing in are not a problem and burden on our society? (Notice I left meth-heads out on purpose. I'm not saying Americans can't be drug dealers either...)

No, I don't... I think the BULK of the problem stems from the law forbidding people from putting into their own bodies what they want. Now your casual user has to deal with a "criminal" by virtue of the fact that there is a law against it. If drugs were legitimate, there would be real competition, and the free market would flourish. illegal drugs would become safer, real chemical engineers would be empolyed by drug manufacturers, their operations would be overseen by health and safety agencies...etc etc...

[TRMN8TR]

and I know plenty of people who have survived on less than $5 an hour...

Was that in 1996, because that was the last time minimum wage was below $5 an hour? If they were making less anytime after that, they were doing it illegally under the table. And they were probably getting gubment assistance like welfare, food stamps, section 8 housing, or living in a box, under an overpass, or in a van down by the river. And you're right, I would call that "surviving" but not living. And as someone who owns frivolous things like motorcycles you know what I mean by living.