4 Gallon Minimum Madate

[TheBrown57]

http://thehill.com/blogs/congress-blog/energy-a-environment/249857-epas-four-gallon-minimum-mandate

"EPA requires that retail stations that own or operate blender pumps either dispense E15 from a dedicated hose and nozzle if able or, in the case of E15 and E10 being dispensed from the same hose, require that at least four gallons of fuel be purchased to prevent vehicles and engines with smaller fuel tanks from being exposed to gasoline-ethanol blended fuels containing greater than 10 volume percent ethanol."

[OsuMj]

I'm moving to the woods now.

[Disclaimer]

Before I make any hasty or rash accusations... I'm going to do more research on this.

How many stations use blenders that will be affected?

How much influence does the ethanol lobby have vs. the petroleum lobby (5% more ethanol = 5% less oil afterall)?

What agenda does this representative have (besides his political affiliation)?

What's in it for the EPA to do this?

How far has this mandate gone? Is this just an idea that the EPA was kicking around and all of a sudden someone decided this would be great news to use to get the public "outraged" about the EPA?

Or, is this ruling legal and done and the outrage is legitimate?

Lots of questions...

[TheBrown57]

Agreed, was posting this to let the people that seem to have amazing abilities to pull that stuff up do so and post for everyone's benefit.

[Disclaimer]

EPA Wins Legal Battle Against Higher Ethanol Levels In Fuel

http://www.greencarreports.com/news/1078608_epa-wins-legal-battle-against-higher-ethanol-levels-in-fuel

Several groups, including grocery, auto and petroleum industry bodies filed suit against the Environmental Protection Agency in November 2010, challenging a rule to allow higher concentrations of corn-based ethanol in gasoline.

Reasoning ranges from high demand of corn-based ethanol pushing up the price and limiting supply of corn for food, to automakers unsure of the long-term effects of ethanol on engines.

According to Bloomberg, the court ruled that none of the groups could show they had been harmed by the EPA's decision to offer E15--15 percent ethanol content in gasoline.

Also

There have also been recent concerns that the requirements of blended pumps for ethanol blends above the standard E10--that's 10 percent ethanol, 90 percent gasoline--limits some users from filling up with E15. That's if you can find E15 in the first place, as pumps are still relatively few and far between.

E15 might have taken a step forward following the court's decision, but there are plenty more hurdles on the horizon before the fuel is widely available.

[Disclaimer]

E15 Ethanol Fuel Can Damage Engines, New Automaker Study Says

http://www.greencarreports.com/news/1076240_e15-ethanol-fuel-can-damage-engines-new-automaker-study-says

Published May 16, 2012

At present, virtually no E15 is sold in the U.S. because the so-called blender pumps that will dispense it have not yet been installed.

So, basically what I get is...

"ZOMFG!!11!11 Worry for nothing" -- you would have to actively seek E15 for your vehicle, or motorcycle, or lawnmower at this point. And if you weren't actively seeking E15 and stumbled upon an E15 pump and ignored the warning (proposed)

You're the idiot.

So once again, we have some politician outraged over something so focused and small it's not really on anyone's radar. He's the guy that would step on a $100 to pick up a dime.

[TheBrown57]

I love this place

[Ziggy]

The AMA is actively fighting the 4 gallon minimum purchase mandate in addition to fighting against E-15 on the grounds that it is still not proven whether smaller displacement engines can be safely run on the stuff. The 4 gallon minimum purchase mandate as I understand it, would only apply to blender pumps that offer both E10 and E15 fuels. The reason for the mandate is that the EPA acknowledges that if the person that used the pump ahead of you bought a tank of E15 fuel, and you're the next one to that pump, you could inadvertantly get up to 3/4 gallon of E15 fuel because of the residual fuel in the line. Basically, the EPA is saying that you'll have to pump at least 3.25 gallons of fuel to dilute the E15 down to "safe" levels.

I take issue with anyone telling me that I have to purchase something that I don't want, or don't need. My bike only holds 3.2 gallons of fuel if I run it completely dry. When I typically fill up, it only takes about 2.5 gallons. WTH am I supposed to do with the other gallon and a half? If I'm out riding and need to get gas and the only gas station in the area uses blender pumps, how can I be sure that I'm not poisoning my bike with E15?

[Disclaimer]

What's the real issue again Pauly? No one is mandating you use E15...

That's like being pissed that a bar has a $10 minimum when you could've just as easily went to Wendy's.

I thought u conservotarians were all about free choice? E15 is an additional player to the market. You don't want it? Don't get it... or would you rather the gov't hold your hand to make sure your vehicles get the proper fuel and maintenance?

Edited September 19, 2012 by JRMMiii

[Ziggy]

JRMMiii has a point, to a point... I'll not willingly purchase E15 for any of my vehicles, especially my bike. The issue though is that gas stations are going to be forced to carry E15. The vast majority of those gas stations are not going to be willing to install dedicated E15 pumps, so they'll start filling one of their ground tanks with E15 and run it through their already installed blender pumps. When they do that, every time you pull up to one of those pumps, it'll be a crap shoot whether you're going to get up to .75 gallons of E15 in your tank inadvertantly. In my bike, that's nearly a half tank of fuel that isn't safe for my engine.

I acknowledge that it isn't a huge issue right now with the relatively sparse population of stations offering E15, but as time marches on, it'll become more of an issue for all of us.

[shittygsxr]

there are going to be riots in the hood where the typical patron pays with the "jingles".

Being white I had to ask one of our african-american bretheren what the "jingles" are. For our appliatian american population "jingles" refer to loose change.

[Disclaimer]

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jim_Sensenbrenner

[RSparky]

Pardon my lack of knowledge, but would carrying around fuel stabilizer, or octane booster remedy this?

[JStump]

Pardon my lack of knowledge, but would carrying around fuel stabilizer, or octane booster remedy this?

From what I have heard, octane booster is snake oil. Fuel stabilizer would not remove the extra ethanol, it only keeps fuel from separating and breaking down when being stored for long periods of time.

[ReconRat]

missing the point! If last person pumped E15, and I come along and try to pump E10, and get some of that nasty E15 mixed in! Then I've got E11! I won't stand for it! Or sit!

<sarcasm>

edit: btw, all pumps in Ohio are E10. Unless you're at a boat dock.

Opinion: if gasoline suppliers make more money selling E15, it will be all E15 soon enough.

re-edit: ok, cranked the numbers. If .75 gallon of E15 slips through in a 5 gallon fillup, you've got E10.75. Now you know.

Edited September 19, 2012 by ReconRat

[Cheech]

Pardon my lack of knowledge, but would carrying around fuel stabilizer, or octane booster remedy this?

No. Octane booster is simply additives to gasoline that increases the liquid's tolerance for compression. For instance, if you put 87 gas in a engine that's designed for 93, chances are you're going to start hearing a knocking sound or pinging sound. That sound is from the air/fuel mixture prematurely igniting simply due to the pressure created from the piston compressing in the cylinder. Premium fuel, or fuel with a higher octane rating, enables the vapor mixture to withstand this higher compression until the piston is at the top of the stroke and the sparkplug ignites, setting off the mixture as it's supposed to.

Octane booster does fuck-all to increase engine performance using regular gas in a regular gas designed engine, nor does it increase performance in premium gas engines using premium gas to begin with. Also, the cost of the octane booster is more than if you would have just bought premium gas to begin with. It also would do absolutely nothing to change the fact that you're running 15% of corn ethanol through your engine, and neither would fuel stabilizers.

For more info about engine knock, premium fuel, and premature detonation, look here.

[Cheech]

missing the point! If last person pumped E15, and I come along and try to pump E10, and get some of that nasty E15 mixed in! Then I've got E11! I won't stand for it! Or sit!

<sarcasm>

edit: btw, all pumps in Ohio are E10. Unless you're at a boat dock.

Opinion: if gasoline suppliers make more money selling E15, it will be all E15 soon enough.

re-edit: ok, cranked the numbers. If .75 gallon of E15 slips through in a 5 gallon fillup, you've got E10.75. Now you know.

I was under the impression that the major name gas places still had standard gas, while the places like Kroger and Giant Eagle had 10%? I see the 10% signs on the Eagle fillups, I don't see them on Sunoco's, for example.

[ReconRat]

I was under the impression that the major name gas places still had standard gas, while the places like Kroger and Giant Eagle had 10%? I see the 10% signs on the Eagle fillups, I don't see them on Sunoco's, for example.

There's an older thread about it, where I quoted the State of Ohio responding to the missing E10 signs on pumps. They decided that since all pumps were E10, they no longer had to post it. And removed all the state required E10 stickers. Correct, everyone is immediately confused...

edit: I do think and hope that if E15 makes it to the pumps, that all fuel will be marked. Both E15 and E10.

Edited September 19, 2012 by ReconRat

[Cheech]

There's an older thread about it, where I quoted the State of Ohio responding to the missing E10 signs on pumps. They decided that since all pumps were E10, they no longer had to post it. And removed all the state required E10 stickers. Correct, everyone is immediately confused...

Great, so much for my perceived mileage savings using "standard" gas vs. the ethanol blend...

[JStump]

http://pure-gas.org/index.jsp?stateprov=OH

Anyone near one of these should do a test on MPG and perceived power gains from non ethanol gas and report back here. I am curious as to how much a difference it makes, supposedly its pretty substantial. I live near the one in Amherst so I will try that one next chance I get.

[Disclaimer]

LoL.. the government is incentivising the sale of ethanol. They're creating a false market. You're Wendy's analogy is failsauce (you couldn't even give me barbeque?) and not the same thing' date=' at all. [/quote']

Not the same? I forgot when they quit giving Big oil subsidies too.

So, you're upset about a new artificial market that is going to compete with another preexisting artificial market? Neither of which you are forced to buy...

[Cheech]

There is no requirement for the ethanol label. The fuel stop near my house sells ethanol-free 90 octane' date=' but the rest is E-10.

Cheech, my truck is in the middle of a study, but Lyns' Subaru gets better mileage with the "no-corn gas" she gets down the street.[/quote']

That doesn't surprise me as gasoline contains more energy than ethanol. When I fill up, provided I don't have some retarded-good discounts through Giant Eagle, I like to gravitate towards what I thought was the non-corn gas due to that fact alone.

[Disclaimer]

You wouldn't be subsidizing anything if you left America and renounced your citizenship.

Another option.

[ReconRat]

Gosh, if just looking for most energy bang for the buck, just fill up with diesel #2.

Gasoline (regular) gallon = 114,100 btu or 1.00 gallons gasoline

Ethanol (E100) gallon = 76,100 btu or 0.63 gallons gasoline

E10 gallon = 110,300 btu or 0.94 gallons gasoline

E15 gallon = 98,050 btu or 0.86 gallons gasoline

The problem, is that cost of any of the above is usually adjusted so it all costs the same for miles per dollar. Nobody is doing us any favors. It's all about stretching real gasoline to last longer into the future.

Edited September 20, 2012 by ReconRat

[Disclaimer]

I'm older. I was here first. You should leave.

I'm not the one complaining.