4 Gallon Minimum Madate

[jbot]

so what you're saying is... if he doesn't like it, he can giiit ouuut

[vf1000ride]

All I can say is that I have had to replace the gas tank on my bike 3 times in the last 4 years due to the damage caused by the current E-10 shit the USA currently calls gasoline. When they go to E-15 I am 100% fucked regardless of how good some overpaid money grubbin talking head says it is. Plastic and alcohol don't mix, end of story. I paid good money for a motorcycle that is in a continuous state of being destroyed by the fuel we are forced to use. Tell me how it sounds like a good plan to want the government to mandate we use something we already know will damage our vehicles.

Oh and I am another person with a tank that holds less then 3.5 gallons.

[Disclaimer]

so what you're saying is... if he doesn't like it, he can giiit ouuut

Well it does save the hassle of challenging all aspects of life... ain't nobody got time for dat.

All I can say is that I have had to replace the gas tank on my bike 3 times in the last 4 years due to the damage caused by the current E-10 shit the USA currently calls gasoline. When they go to E-15 I am 100% fucked regardless of how good some overpaid money grubbin talking head says it is. Plastic and alcohol don't mix, end of story. I paid good money for a motorcycle that is in a continuous state of being destroyed by the fuel we are forced to use. Tell me how it sounds like a good plan to want the government to mandate we use something we already know will damage our vehicles.

Oh and I am another person with a tank that holds less then 3.5 gallons.

3 tanks in 4 years? I've gotta think that's on you, not the gas. Or at least if you are so sure its the E10, you've made the choice to continue to fill your bike with it, which is still on you. Just like it would be on you if you ignored the labels, actually found a station that sold E15 and put that in your bike... your decision.

For the money you've spent replacing tanks, I'd either get a different bike that can handle "shit gas", find a gas station that doesn't sell blended fuel and buy a drum of it each season, or figure out what needs modified on the tanks so you don't keep having to replace them.

Or just keep doing your thing and spending your money.

[vf1000ride]

3 tanks in 4 years? I've gotta think that's on you, not the gas.

Hows about you google "Ducati fuel tank lawsuit", "triumph fuel tank warping", "ethanol fuel tank damage". Its a known issue that E10 is extremely damaging to plastic fuel tanks on motorcycles and any plastic parts in any vehicles fuel system. Its not just a motorcycle problem. So far Ducati has warrantied the tank for me on my 3 previous replacements but it has taken a class action lawsuit against them to force them to do it and that has a limited window to be able to claim against them. It has been proven in the courts that the fuel used in the USA is damaging the fuel tanks used by Ducati so who knows what other bike manufacturers are going to have trouble with the ethanol in their tanks in the future, especially if they increase the amount of the blend.

On your other statement about getting a drum of fuel to keep at home. What? My bike holds 3.5 gallons total. At 45mpg I would never be able to ride my bike more than 50 miles from Columbus and still be able to make it home without needing to use blended fuel. What kind of bullshit solution is that. How about you buy my bike being it must be a problem with the way I care for it. Then I can buy something that may have the same issues in a few years.

[Cheech]

Well it does save the hassle of challenging all aspects of life... ain't nobody got time for dat.

3 tanks in 4 years? I've gotta think that's on you, not the gas. Or at least if you are so sure its the E10, you've made the choice to continue to fill your bike with it, which is still on you. Just like it would be on you if you ignored the labels, actually found a station that sold E15 and put that in your bike... your decision.

For the money you've spent replacing tanks, I'd either get a different bike that can handle "shit gas", find a gas station that doesn't sell blended fuel and buy a drum of it each season, or figure out what needs modified on the tanks so you don't keep having to replace them.

Or just keep doing your thing and spending your money.

Yeah, I gotta go with this. I've made it a habit to rack up savings at Giant Eagle (with confirmed 10% ethanol) and fill up my car and 4 5gal plastic gas cans with no problems at all. I don't know what kind of plastic your tanks are made from, but whatever it is it doesn't seem to be the standard stuff.

[Brownsfan1]

I store fuel in a 55gal plastic barrel at my house and I never had a problem with fuel or the plastic drum.

[vf1000ride]

How about a few pictures to back up my rant. Just so the naysayers can see what they are in for when their bikes go to shit.

New tank gap at the key. Nice and even, the tank is centered on the frame.

From the top you can see the gentle dish shape on the top of the tank but it is even and nicely contoured.

Now to a tank that has been on the bike for somewhere around 8 months. It has had fuel in it and I ride the bike a fair amount.

Here is the same angle shot of the key, you can see how the tank has distorted enough that the key is no longer lined up in the center of the cutout in the tank.

And another picture taken from above to show how the nice gentle contour on the top of the tank has turned into a a wavy ocean of rippled and distorted plastic.

The other thing that you can't see in these pictures is that from new tank to distorted tank, the plastic swells up so much larger that the handlebars begin to hit the tank on both sides. Not only does it damage the paint finish but you can imagine the fun of getting a finger crushed between the bars and your tank when you are trying to maneuver in a parking lot.

[Brownsfan1]

After you google the Ducati tank issue' date=' hit a couple searches on how the marine industry is holding up against this regulated, subsidized and force-fed corn gas.[/quote']

We have stations here that have what they call marine grade fuel. .

[Cheech]

How about a few pictures to back up my rant. Just so the naysayers can see what they are in for when their bikes go to shit.

Thanks for posting, I stand corrected. That's fucked up.

[Disclaimer]

Ok... so it sounds like it's a Ducati issue, not a fuel issue. I'm sure Ducati is well aware of the fuel mandates here (considering E10 has been around for decades and you have a 2007 Duc according to your avatar lines) and should make products accordingly if they want to survive in the North American market. If they choose not to conform and they sell units with fuel tanks that fall apart every season, then you would think the capitalistic people will start buying products that don't do that given the fuel options they're limited to. Or, those people will still buy Ducatis and figure out some way to adapt the product or fuel sources themselves. Kind of like the people that make their own biodiesel.

I still don't see this as a "blame the gov't" issue, when you could just as easily blame the Automotive and motorcycle OEs, or Big Oil, or Big Corn. EVERYONE has their hands in the cookie jar so to limit it to just one party at fault is silly.

Cars, bikes, lawnmowers -- everything needs fuel, and if those companies aren't going into the petrol refining business to control that process, they're subjected to make products that tolerate the fuel that is produced by other companies or not sell their wares. And the process continues to snowball all the way up through lobbyists and the EPA, NHTSA... but with as slow as these processes typical move, the one truth is "It shouldn't come as a shock."

But if you really want to know why these mandates are being passed down -- https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Energy_Independence_and_Security_Act_of_2007

Edited September 20, 2012 by JRMMiii

[magley64]

How about a few pictures to back up my rant. Just so the naysayers can see what they are in for when their bikes go to shit.

So Ducati made a shit choice in materials when constructing their bikes for a world market, and now you're bitching about it....

I'd be pissed too, because by 2007, Ducati should have their shit together.

It's be like if Honda made a coolant tank out of corn starch, and then I got pissed at Prestone for adding water to my coolant...

[vf1000ride]

It amazes me that you guys continue to think the fuel issue is only Ducati. Triumph tanks have problems, KTM tanks have problems, boat manufactures had problems, even Porsche has problems with their tanks. Aprilia has tank issues, bmw has started to seal their tanks because they have had problems with their tanks swelling. Just because your bike hasn't had a problem doesn't mean the problem isn't relevant.

[Brownsfan1]

How about a few pictures to back up my rant. Just so the naysayers can see what they are in for when their bikes go to shit.

New tank gap at the key. Nice and even, the tank is centered on the frame.

From the top you can see the gentle dish shape on the top of the tank but it is even and nicely contoured.

Now to a tank that has been on the bike for somewhere around 8 months. It has had fuel in it and I ride the bike a fair amount.

Here is the same angle shot of the key, you can see how the tank has distorted enough that the key is no longer lined up in the center of the cutout in the tank.

And another picture taken from above to show how the nice gentle contour on the top of the tank has turned into a a wavy ocean of rippled and distorted plastic.

The other thing that you can't see in these pictures is that from new tank to distorted tank, the plastic swells up so much larger that the handlebars begin to hit the tank on both sides. Not only does it damage the paint finish but you can imagine the fun of getting a finger crushed between the bars and your tank when you are trying to maneuver in a parking lot.

Thats fucked up. Rant on I haven't seen that happen yet to anybody around here.

[Disclaimer]

I'm sure ________ is well aware of the fuel mandates here (considering E10 has been around for decades...) and should make products accordingly if they want to survive in the North American market. If they choose not to conform and they sell units with fuel tanks that fall apart every season, then you would think the capitalistic people will start buying products that don't do that given the fuel options they're limited to. Or, those people will still buy ________ and figure out some way to adapt the product or fuel sources themselves... [T]he one truth is "It shouldn't come as a shock."

Fill in the blank with all the companies you listed.

[magley64]

honda... metal gas tank...winning

[vf1000ride]

Fill in the blank with all the companies you listed.

Ok, you win. You guys can keep your E10 and soon to be E15. I will take my bike and move to a country that still uses 100% gas and doesn't have these issues. Just keep a hearty "told you so" handy for when your bikes start having problems. I will gladly add your manufacture to my list.

Oh, btw, I don't know how you get your decades worth of E10 use but I seem to remember E10 started to replace MTBE sometime in the 2003-2006 time frame. E10 was not pushed hard into production until late in 2007 when the Energy Independence act was written. So I say this in the kindest way possible but suck it, both my bikes were designed and manufactured before E10 became the only choice for fuel. The fuel suppliers and the government F'd me, not Ducati or Triumph. Granted Ducati has since taken over the job of screwing me by doing nothing to fix their fuel tank design but we can continue pointing fingers clear to the end of time at this rate seeing as you are only willing to point the finger at vehicle manufacturers and refuse to concede that the gov and the fuel companies should also share the blame for mandating a fuel be used that was known to have already damaged the fuel systems on thousands of vehicles in this country.

[magley64]

the fuel companies should also share the blame for mandating a fuel be used that was known to have already damaged the fuel systems on thousands of vehicles in this country.

you aren't required to buy any fuel at all. you are the one who chose to put E10 in your rubber gas tank.. you could have purchased oxygenated racing fuel if you wanted, but you didn't... you went to a local gas station and pumped in whatever crap they had on tap...

Did your handbook specify a fuel grade?

[Disclaimer]

This isn't about "winning" -- we're having a discussion, nothing more.

And once my bike has fuel issues (and I've had a tank of bad gas here and there in both my bikes, which wasn't pleasant to diagnose since I didn't have a lot of experience), I'll gladly add my manufacturer to your list and reevaluate the root cause of the issue. I still don't don't believe it's the fault of the fuel, until someone (be it you, Ducati, etc) can show the fuel was not manufactured and/or dispensed to the FedGov published guidelines. Maybe that certain gas station that you frequent got a bad tank? Maybe their blender pump overblended the E10? Maybe Ducati's fuel tank supplier didn't properly treat the inside of the tanks and it's a manufacturing quality defect?

I don't know.

I just know my default response when there is an issue isn't "this is the (government's/Obama's/Republicans/EPAs/Democrats) fault" -- my default is to investigate a root cause and if I can assign fault there, great, but if the "responsible party" is really a complex network of multiple parties, I'm not pointing my finger at one an assigning all fault there just because I have a bias toward a certain political agenda.

We're getting a little off-topic though. The issue of the thread was E15 and the outrage that it will bring. My whole initial point was -- go find me an E15 station to complain about and we'll have a discussion. It's WAY too early to fly off the handle about E15.

Ohh, and I was curious about the history of E10... it was introduced as a response to the 1973 oil crisis, but here's a study on E20 done by Minnesota that compares the effects of E20 to E10: http://www.mda.state.mn.us/news/publications/renewable/ethanol/legrpt-ethanol-e20.pdf

Discussion—Brazil’s Example

It is clear that the products of many vehicle and small engine companies common to the

U.S. market are being used in Brazil, where gasoline/ethanol blends have fluctuated

between 20 and 26 percent since 1978. These include manufacturers of:

a Vehicles (GM, Ford, Chrysler, Toyota, Honda, Nissan, Suzuki, Mitsubishi, Subaru,

Lexus, Hyundai, VW, Fiat, Alfa Romeo, Audi, BMW, Mercedes Benz, Porsche,

Ferrari, Jaguar, Land Rover, Maserati, Peugeot, Citroen, Renault, Volvo);

c. Small and specialty engines (Honda, Toyama, Shindaiwa, Briggs, Murray, MTD); d. Boat engines (Honda, Yamaha, Suzuki, Kawasaki, Mercury, Toyama, PCM, Crusader

Marine, Sea Doo, Evinrude); and,

e. Flex Fuel Vehicles (GM, Ford, VW, Fiat, Peugeot, Citroen, Renault, Toyota, Honda

and Mitsubishi. Next year Nissan is expected to launch a model).

The fact that so many manufacturers familiar to U.S. consumers manufacture equipment

for Brazil suggests that compatibility and operability issues could be addressed in the

U.S. market over time. Brazil’s environmental regulations are not as strict as those in the

United States; however, their vehicles are equipped with catalytic converters, and their

existing emission limitations apply to light trucks and are getting tighter. As in Brazil,

various issues associated with midlevel ethanol blends can be addressed in the United

States, as they continue are being addressed across the country with the growing use of

E10. Prior to the implementation of E10 blends, some vehicle and small engine

manufacturers and environmentalists suggested that the blend was not compatible with

equipment or environmental regulations. As time progressed, however, E10 has proven

to be a fuel that functions well in virtually all applications, has helped make gasoline burn

cleaner, and has become a crucial part of EPA’s reformulated gasoline program (designed

to reduce ambient ozone levels in the country’s largest metropolitan areas).

Since 1978...granted, that's just one study I pulled up (there are more), but then again it may be kind of tainted since it was put on by the Dept. of Agriculture (sell more corn!), and I don't know what their agenda may be or if it's neutral information.

And this site had the best "timeline" I could find on ethanol issues: http://www.fuel-testers.com/ethanol_fuel_history.html

Edited September 20, 2012 by JRMMiii

[vf1000ride]

you aren't required to buy any fuel at all. you are the one who chose to put E10 in your rubber gas tank.. you could have purchased oxygenated racing fuel if you wanted, but you didn't... you went to a local gas station and pumped in whatever crap they had on tap.

Did your handbook specify a fuel grade?

You have hit the nail on the head, thank you for agreeing that the average gas station has "crap on tap". My owners manual calls for a fuel grade that has never been available in the Usa. It wants you to run "unleaded 95RON" so basically the equivalent of mid-grade.

[ReconRat]

Old fashioned gasoline is long gone. It went away with unleaded fuel.

It's now a blend of stuff that burns, and much of it is not.... gasoline.

From a previous thread about E85:

All gasoline can have up to 10% ethanol without notification.

And other popular additives:

...including benzene (up to 5% by volume), toluene (up to 35% by volume), naphthalene (up to 1% by volume), trimethylbenzene (up to 7% by volume), Methyl tert-butyl ether (MTBE) (up to 18% by volume, in some states) and about ten others.

And the entire list of crap in fuel:

Additives

Hybrid compound blends

• 
  
  • Combustion catalyst: an organometallic compound which lowers the ignition point of fuel in the combustion chamber reducing the temperature burn from 1200 degrees to 800 degree F
    
  • Catalyst additives prolongs engine life and increases fuel economy
    
  • Burn rate modifier increases the fuel burn time, resulting in an increased fuel efficiency
    
  • Polymerization increases fuel ignition surface area resulting in increased power from ignition
    
  • Stabilizer/demulsifier/dispersant: prolongs life of fuel and prevents water contamination
    
  • Corrosion inhibitor prevents corrosion of tank and fuel system
    
  • Deposit control additives, acting as detergents, clean the engine
    

  [*]Oxygenates

  • Alcohols:
    
    • Methanol (MeOH)
      
    • Ethanol (EtOH)
      
    • Isopropyl alcohol (IPA)
      
    • n-butanol (BuOH)
      
    • Gasoline grade t-butanol (GTBA)
      

    [*]Ethers:

    • Methyl tert-butyl ether (MTBE) Now outlawed in many states for road use.
      
    • Tertiary amyl methyl ether (TAME)
      
    • Tertiary hexyl methyl ether (THEME)
      
    • Ethyl tertiary butyl ether (ETBE)
      
    • Tertiary amyl ethyl ether (TAEE)
      
    • Diisopropyl ether (DIPE)
      

• Antioxidants, stabilizers
  
  • Butylated hydroxytoluene (BHT)
    
  • 2,4-Dimethyl-6-tert-butylphenol
    
  • 2,6-Di-tert-butylphenol (2,6-DTBP)
    
  • p-Phenylenediamine
    
  • Ethylene diamine
    

• Antiknock agents
  
  • Tetra-ethyl lead
    
  • Methylcyclopentadienyl manganese tricarbonyl (MMT)
    
  • Ferrocene
    
  • Iron pentacarbonyl
    
  • Toluene
    
  • Isooctane
    
  • Triptane
    

• Lead scavengers (for leaded gasoline)
  
  • Tricresyl phosphate (TCP) (also an AW additive and EP additive)
    
  • 1,2-Dibromoethane
    
  • 1,2-Dichloroethane
    

• Fuel dyes, most common:
  
  • Solvent Red 24
    
  • Solvent Red 26
    
  • Solvent Yellow 124
    
  • Solvent Blue 35
    

[ReconRat]

The above is also why it's not good to stick bare skin into gasoline contact.

And which stuff melts the plastic? Several, I'd think.

[magley64]

so what plastic is the Ducati tank made from?

HDPE, Polypro, PET, ABS, polyester?

[swingset]

It amazes me that you guys continue to think the fuel issue is only Ducati. Triumph tanks have problems, KTM tanks have problems, boat manufactures had problems, even Porsche has problems with their tanks. Aprilia has tank issues, bmw has started to seal their tanks because they have had problems with their tanks swelling. Just because your bike hasn't had a problem doesn't mean the problem isn't relevant.

Add in commercial mowers, 2-stroke equipment of all kinds.

Ask your local mowing/repair shop about gas issues. It fucks plastic stuff up, period.

The shop I go to has made a new living out of selling fuel pickups and hoses because the ethanol blended gas is eating the shit out of them.

[Disclaimer]

Hey man... its the conservatives preaching self reliance, pure unbridaled capitalism, and responsibility... so, yea that sounds about what they'd say. They can't complain about it only when it's not convenient for your lifestyle. But hey, whine and complain and vent on the interwebz all you want - we still <3 you (and it's the interwebz).

You gotta pay to play. You don't hear guys with race engines complain about having to drive 50miles to get 110 octane... that's part of the deal.

I still don't know why people are bitching about E15 or E10 when it's been implemented for years, studies have been done (I posted them), and manufacturers are aware. If you don't like what fuel is "convenient" for you to get, then you probably shouldn't buy something that requires you drive 50 miles to get it. Likewise, if you like the convenience of not having to cut your lawn with a reel mower, or not chopping trees with an axe, or riding your motorcycle instead of your bicycle AND want to use the fuel source closest to you to do that... then you should probably buy tools that are capable of reliably using that fuel source. It's not rocket surgery.

You wouldn't go out and buy a diesel VW and bitch about not every station not having diesel would you? Or purchasing a CNG truck and get upset that the nearest filling station is 60 miles away? That's supposed to be rhetorical... who's fault is it that people take for granted that "gas is gas" when it's not? Education and personal responsibility. I thought that's what so many preach on here? But you're sarcastically mocking my sarcastic mocking when I show how absurd that line of thinking is... and the people that are upset about it prove they really want gov't nannies and OE equipment manufacturing nannies looking out for their best interests, to monitor and make sure they don't get E15 or E85 or Diesel or Propane or Kerosene in their "gasoline" vehicles.

Edited September 21, 2012 by JRMMiii

[Disclaimer]

And obviously the "if you don't like it you can giiiiit out" is another illustration of the impracticality of that train of thought. The pure capitalists like to point out that you have "options" and vote with your dollars... that's pretty much the nuclear option -- leave.

Additionally, is not really easy or effective to "vote with your dollars" when our country has a set infrastructure and demand for many products is for all intents and purposes -- inelastic.

Regardless of all that... this thread was about E15, which turned into :villagers: about E10, which turned into a gov't bashing, science vs. mandate vs. personal anecdotes and political schpiel.... so we're way off topic now and the mods should probably move this to the political section (or R&R).

Edited September 21, 2012 by JRMMiii