Tpoppa Posted October 9, 2012 Report Share Posted October 9, 2012 Religion and science can co-exist because they aren't the same. Religion can't replace science' date=' and vice-versa.[/quote']Depends on the religion, right?If you mean Christianity, and believe the Bible is the word of God you can't accept Evolution or Hawking M-Theory. It's a direct contradiction.Evolution or M-Thoery basically remove the need for God from the only tangible evidence of the existence of God. To say it another way, if God did not create the universe or man then God has done nothing.I have heard some Christians back pedal from the Creation arguement by saying the story of Creation could be a metaphor for Evolution even though that would contradict the notion that the Bible is the word of God.These arguements have been going on for hundreds of years. Search for "Galileo on house arrest" for an interesting bit of historical reading. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ReconRat Posted October 9, 2012 Report Share Posted October 9, 2012 Actually there is only one hypothesis, there exists somewhere in the universe, an all knowing, all powerful, intelligent sentient being, you call a god...since you can never prove a negative, the other "hypothesis" you suggest is not actually a scientific hypothesis.This is referring to falsifiable and unfalsifiable in methods of proof. Neither breaches the barrier between theoretical and scientific/logic. Literally, for the concept of God doesn't exist, the concept of God does exist must be there. And vice versa. Therefore one hypothesis must have the contradiction in order to even be a valid hypothesis. Otherwise, both or either theories have to be abandoned.Falsifiability is an important notion in science and the philosophy of science. For an assertion to be falsifiable it must be logically possible to make an observation or do a physical experiment that would show the assertion to be false. It is important to note that "falsifiable" does not mean false. Some philosophers and scientists, most notably Karl Popper, have asserted that no empirical hypothesis, proposition, or theory can be considered scientific if no observation could be made which might contradict it. Note that if an assertion is falsifiable its negation can be unfalsifiable, and vice-versa. For example, "God does exist" is unfalsifiable, while it's negation "God doesn't exist" is falsifiable. Any scientific theory must have criteria under which it is deemed invalid. Should predictions and verifications fail completely, the theory must be abandoned.http://en.wikibooks.org/wiki/The_Scientific_Method/Introduction_to_Science Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
magley64 Posted October 9, 2012 Author Report Share Posted October 9, 2012 Depends on the religion, right?If you mean Christianity, and believe the Bible is the word of God you can't accept Evolution or Hawking M-Theory. It's a direct contradiction.Evolution or M-Thoery basically remove the need for God from the only tangible evidence of the existence of God. To say it another way, if God did not create the universe or man then God has done nothing.not necessarily...You can still have Christianity without the old testament. You can remove the creation story, the flood, the talking donkey, and the virgin birth, and what you have left is still a pretty decent philosopher and role model in the traditional teachings of jesus.You can devote your life to be like jesus (seems like a decent dude from what I've read) Love your neighbors, honor your parents, live your life in a way that helps the society around you, and that can be your religion, that can be how you live your life. Yaweh, and all of the miracles can be completely removed from the equation (as jefferson did).Now what you have left is the teachings of an ancient hippie, worship him as a god, and now your christian religion doesn't have anything at all to interfere with science. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tpoppa Posted October 9, 2012 Report Share Posted October 9, 2012 not necessarily...You can still have Christianity without the old testament. You can remove the creation story, the flood, the talking donkey, and the virgin birth, and what you have left is still a pretty decent philosopher and role model in the traditional teachings of jesus.You can devote your life to be like jesus (seems like a decent dude from what I've read) Love your neighbors, honor your parents, live your life in a way that helps the society around you, and that can be your religion, that can be how you live your life. Yaweh, and all of the miracles can be completely removed from the equation (as jefferson did).Now what you have left is the teachings of an ancient hippie, worship him as a god, and now your christian religion doesn't have anything at all to interfere with science.Can't tell if kidding...You would also need to remove the whole notion of Jesus being the son of God, immaculate reception, and easter zombie Jesus. Without those elements, I seriously doubt the stroies of Jesus would be around today.You would be left with a role model. There are plenty of role models in history.That's way too philosophical for me anyway... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jbot Posted October 9, 2012 Report Share Posted October 9, 2012 This is referring to falsifiable and unfalsifiable in methods of proof. Neither breaches the barrier between theoretical and scientific/logic. Literally, for the concept of God doesn't exist, the concept of God does exist must be there. And vice versa. Therefore one hypothesis must have the contradiction in order to even be a valid hypothesis. Otherwise, both or either theories have to be abandoned.you have noble intentions, and showing admirable restraint, but after he gives up on wiki-ing philosophy 101, he'll just change the subject to why obama's weiner tastes so fresh and so clean clean. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
magley64 Posted October 9, 2012 Author Report Share Posted October 9, 2012 This is referring to falsifiable and unfalsifiable in methods of proof. Neither breaches the barrier between theoretical and scientific/logic. Literally, for the concept of God doesn't exist, the concept of God does exist must be there. And vice versa. Therefore one hypothesis must have the contradiction in order to even be a valid hypothesis. Otherwise, both or either theories have to be abandoned.I suppose in order to actually justify this position we would first have to define what evidence is acceptable?Is the problem of evil acceptable evidence against and omniscient, omnipotent, omni-benevolent creator of the universe?How about evidence regarding the effectiveness of prayer regarding the healing and recovery of individuals who are sick or injured?Is there any evidence that would be accepted regarding the absence of a god?I can tell you the answer, and it is no, because religious beliefs are not based on evidence, they are based on faith.Therefore the only question that can be answered with evidence is the positive one "is there a god" because there is plenty of physical evidence that COULD be provided if it existed. Miraculous conjuring of any number of tangible things, physical manifestations, an untold number of possible evidence that could be provided, but is not. No physical evidence, none. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
r1crusher Posted October 9, 2012 Report Share Posted October 9, 2012 you have noble intentions, and showing admirable restraint, but after he gives up on wiki-ing philosophy 101, he'll just change the subject to why obama's weiner tastes so fresh and so clean clean.This made me giggle. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ReconRat Posted October 9, 2012 Report Share Posted October 9, 2012 Ok, down to the nerdy gritty part. To deny (or accept) something without the falsifiability of it's opposite to prove or disprove it, is dangerously wrong. The religious "cult" that is so feared, meets those criteria. So also is pure denial in all it's forms, essentially is in essence a cult in itself. A firm affirmation of "there can be only one way" will qualify. That which is most feared, is what is embraced in fear.Cliff's notes: In avoiding the cult of religion, one can become the cult of non-religion. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tpoppa Posted October 9, 2012 Report Share Posted October 9, 2012 ^^^then explain the Cult of Personalityhttp://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NzdUy90vTuk Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
magley64 Posted October 9, 2012 Author Report Share Posted October 9, 2012 Ok, down to the nerdy gritty part. To deny (or accept) something without the falsifiability of it's opposite to prove or disprove it, is dangerously wrong. The religious "cult" that is so feared, meets those criteria. So also is pure denial in all it's forms, essentially is in essence a cult in itself. A firm affirmation of "there can be only one way" will qualify. That which is most feared, is what is embraced in fear.Cliff's notes: In avoiding the cult of religion, one can become the cult of non-religion.then also count me in the cult of gravity, the cult of no fairies, and the cult of trikes are not bikes. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pokey Posted October 9, 2012 Report Share Posted October 9, 2012 Lulz.I think agnostic is perfect. You just admit you don't know. Nothing wrong with knowing yourself well enough to be humble in acknowledging your own ignorance as no compelling evidence on either side has definitively proven the existence of a "God" or lack thereof.I think that is a very thought out and logical view, it takes more faith IMHO to be an Atheist then a Christian, and agnostic viewpoint just doesn't know or believe either way "yet". Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pokey Posted October 9, 2012 Report Share Posted October 9, 2012 then also count me in the cult of gravity, the cult of no fairies, and the cult of trikes are not bikes.You seem to be quite the intellectual, why not give this book a read......have nothing to lose right?http://www.amazon.com/Dont-Have-Enough-Faith-Atheist/dp/1581345615 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pokey Posted October 9, 2012 Report Share Posted October 9, 2012 Please' date=' enlighten me. I'm all ears, good sir. [/quote']I am still reading the book, I will enlighten better once I am finished. I must say it sure does make you think and put things into perspective a bit. Book obviously was written by an extremely intelligent ex Atheist, it is interesting for sure and helped answer some of my questions. But one must go in with an open mind, and I know that many have had a "change of thought" or skepticism. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pokey Posted October 9, 2012 Report Share Posted October 9, 2012 I will not argue, it is beneficial for some.For me, I have no use for it... I have morals and dreams, and aspirations, and character without the need for a deity.For others, it's a torturous existence of self hate and a lack of self esteem because they can never live up to the standards set by bronze age goat herders.Still others use it as an excuse for violence against those that disagree with their views, and justify their violence by passages in their holy books. (mostly the abrahamics)Interesting......have never felt that way for 1 second. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pokey Posted October 9, 2012 Report Share Posted October 9, 2012 Fair enough. I'm not certain I can be swayed back into "Camp Jesus"' date=' having been on that team for most of my life. However, I look forward to hearing your synopsis and then pointing out all of the fallacies with it. [/quote']I think you should read it, the author does a much better job than I ever could. A bit hard to put down once you get started, I have just been short on time lately. Having shoulder surgery this Friday, so I will have plenty of time to git er done. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
magley64 Posted October 9, 2012 Author Report Share Posted October 9, 2012 Interesting......have never felt that way for 1 second.Then maybe you are the "some" that religion is beneficial for... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ama146 Posted October 9, 2012 Report Share Posted October 9, 2012 I find it amusing how some religious people laugh at ancient times where the people believed in Zeus, and all those other gods. Think about 1000 years from now... People will be laughing at us saying "haha wow, they actually thought god was real back then?!" I for one am very glad to hear this because I believe religion is hindering the progress of mankind. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kent2406 Posted October 10, 2012 Report Share Posted October 10, 2012 Flying Spaghetti Monster That is all.......... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
magley64 Posted October 10, 2012 Author Report Share Posted October 10, 2012 Flying Spaghetti Monster That is all..........Have you been touched by his noodly appendage? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hollywood3586 Posted October 10, 2012 Report Share Posted October 10, 2012 This thread is full of blasphemy.. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kent2406 Posted October 10, 2012 Report Share Posted October 10, 2012 Have you been touched by his noodly appendage?Yes, he came to me in the night. I couldn't sleep, so I turned the tv on, and there he was! Since the day I sent him my money, I have been full of life and joy. He saved my life! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BDBGoalie Posted October 10, 2012 Report Share Posted October 10, 2012 Organized religion is a huge problem in our society today. So many people listen blindly to what a book or some person tells them that they are willing to change their beliefs and way of life just to fit into that mold. Even worse is that most religious people are happy and even encouraged to spread and force their opinion on everyone else.People that are against gay marriage can't just be happy that they aren't going to marry another person of the same gender, they have to make sure everyone can't. People against abortion can't just be happy to not get abortions themselves, they have to make sure everyone can't. People that don't want women to have rights won't be happy until all women have no rights and can't read. Etc...All because their religion is opposed to it. Most of the time, that religious doctrine they are following/interpreting is thousands of years old.If everyone would just worry about living a good life and being decent to everyone else the world would be a much better place. Hell, I'd even be happy with everyone just keeping their religious views to themselves. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pokey Posted October 10, 2012 Report Share Posted October 10, 2012 I let people profess their beliefs to me if they wish, but when I ask for evidence, they can't seem to provide any.Can you provide evidence that there is no evidence to support God, or that Jesus didnt exist and be who he said he was? Or that things didnt occur as the Bible says it did? Just curious is all. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pokey Posted October 10, 2012 Report Share Posted October 10, 2012 I am not religious and don't believe in religions, there lies the difference. Vast majority of my friends are either Atheist or Agnostic, so that should tell ya that I respect and understand each persons viewpoint. I push nothing, I rarely talk about it, and I am FAR FAR from a good Christian. But I am far from miserable nor do I feel burdened by anything. Each person most decide on their own what is best for them in life, and you just hope that many can be tolerant and understanding. RESPECT is what you will get from me, so long as Satanic rituals and Holywar Jihad isn't involved. No doubt there are bad Christians, but bad people come in many forms. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
magley64 Posted October 10, 2012 Author Report Share Posted October 10, 2012 Can you provide evidence that there is no evidence to support God, or that Jesus didnt exist and be who he said he was? Or that things didnt occur as the Bible says it did? Just curious is all.Third question is easy, fossils... stars billions of lightyears from earth...Evidence that the earth is a lot older than the bible suggests, and that the surrounding universe is older still.. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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