Moto-Brian Posted January 7, 2013 Report Share Posted January 7, 2013 See the first and second threads via here:http://www.ohioriders.net/showthread.php?t=100898Drive.It's what can separate the less powered, smaller motored, better riders from the big bikes or can get you to that better lap time if done correctly.What I truly hate about instruction at times is the focus on the things that really aren't as important. Yes, you need to learn to brake later and control your machine on entry, but too often, the rider is blazing into a corner because they "think" they can outbrake and pass the rider in front and get a better position on the track in a race or lower their lap times if they learn to deep brake in turns.Fact is simple... Break down your favorite track. Find out what turns are braking turns and which ones are drive turns. The probability that the drive turns outweigh the braking turns is very high. Why? Simple. Drive turns are those turns where you gain more from a better drive than you do from a deep outbraking move. Let's look at Mid-Ohio and Nelson since these seem to be the most attended tracks. We can even discuss Putnam as it is certainly a corner track that is important. I will let you all ask the questions and we can break it down.But, the idea is rather easy. The fact that when deep braking, you are killing speed in general, you need to make that speed up, correct? Mid turn or higher corner speed can be in jeopardy when late braking. You scrubbing speed can eliminate the mid corner speed you need. So, how do we get fast times when you kill speed?Late braking is something that you tend to do in a race situation. It sometimes is needed to get in front of the person in front to break away or catch those "breaking away" in front of you. Braking duals are awesome to watch, great to do and certainly entertaining. Bike is loose, rear wheel up off the ground and things moving fast.But, how many times have you seen a guy late brake another rider only to be passed right back mid turn? Why is that? For the purpose of this topic, the idea is to cut the most efficient and effective lap you can. There are going to be braking turns and there are going to be turns that just do not benefit the rider from braking vs drive.Putnam's bus stop is an example. But, that's really it. Sure, you can late brake into turn 1, but the idea is corner speed and drive at Putnam. Too often, you can pass under brakes only to have the guy you passed be held up or pass you right back between 1 and 2. Mid corner speed leads to a solid drive and corners like 2, 4, Dead Bear and 10 are turns where without solid drive, you will be losing ground. Even turn 9 has drive elements.Point is that drive will take a kid on a 600 coming out of the Keyhole at Mid-Ohio and have him right on the rear wheel of a liter bike that is power down the straight. How is it possible for a 600 to either pass a liter bike before the kink at Mid-O or be VERY hard to reel in on a liter bike at that point? Reason is his drive out of the Keyhole was more efficient and more effective. He was on the gas sooner and driving while the liter bike was either yet to get on the throttle or still managing neutral throttle and yet to pull the trigger.This is also why it is typical to see 600s so close in lap times and often times, faster at tracks than liter bikes. You cannot grab throttle to full open as soon as you can on a 600. Corner speed is it's specialty. Ever see the 125 kids that run 35s-36s during the Red Bull Rookie's Cup at Mid-Ohio on 125s? It isn't due to late braking and high horse power. It is corner speed and maintaining high speeds and solid drives out of turns.This can be done on ANY machine, but limited in terms of the power delivery. So, each machine needs a little more attention and care, but the idea is the same. Drive is better than braking. Mid-Ohio has maybe 1 turn that you can late brake someone on. That is a minor detail when you consider the drive turns. 1, Keyhole, off the back straight, down the hill, up the hill under the bridge, out of 10 into Thunder and between 14 and the carousel along with drive onto the front straight. See where drive becomes an important issue?Same with Nelson. Turn 1 to 2. 4, carousel exit, out of 12 and on to the front straight. Braking late into 4 may work, but if the rider in front is solid at drive, they will run the outside and carry speed around back. Braking into 12 seems to be the only strong braking turn there. Again, vs drive turns, you see importance of drive.So, how do you accomplish this? Well, that's a little tough to handle. The idea is to have everything under control. Done braking, done settling into the turn and ready to let the machine chew on pavement. You need to work on getting the bike to where it is ready to pull the trigger. Too often, guys are braking so early that they scrub the speed so much that they have destroyed setting up the drive. Yes, you can pull the trigger earlier, but you have lost ground. The fine line of late braking and solid braking will determine the loss or sustainability of speed. Drive is what ties it all together. You can over brake, you can late brake. Either way, one may be better if done well. But, typical of what I see out there, the rider tends to brake too much and too soon. But, fear not. If settled in, get your lines done correctly and have the bike planted and ready for throttle input, you can excel in drive and have some seriously solid laps.The key to solid drive is to be able to get on to the throttle sooner. But, it isn't the only way. You need to put all three things together to pull off a great corner. Braking, mid turn and drive. But, they all work together. Thinking you can make ground on late braking will show you are wrong unless you can back that up with amazing drive.I have seen guys come in sideways and scrubbing speed and pass a guy with traditional style that is smooth and not loose coming in on the brakes. The smooth guy can start his drive sooner since the bike is settled and fluid. The late brake sideways guy needs the bike to stop and settle in. That time gets absorbed and the smooth guy gets to drive sooner. Now, there will be cases where sideways late braking and solid drive assist in getting the pass done or fast laps. Happens all the time. But, to the majority of us on this board, that is something that isn't going to happen. Fundamentals are what we are looking at and if you think you can drop lap times with late braking, you can. But, your times will drop more if you work on the drive corners at whatever track you are at. I can promise that drive turns outweigh braking turns and this is where the higher % of lap times being lowered and riders becoming better exists.I see some groups teaching braking, passing and body position. For the sake of Novice and lower end I groups, this works. Fundamentals in those areas. But, higher end I group riders and Advanced riders, you need to know that should be something you always work on, but should have a basic understanding of and do at least on an average to above average amount. The work on drive is to get you to the next level.Just as in anything, there are levels of it all. Levels of braking. Levels of corner speed and levels of drive. Are you at the start or sitting solid in the middle? Are you able to spin the rear with control and use that as a tool or are you just starting to work on getting to the throttle opened position as soon as possible? It's all at levels and we all work at different speeds and have different ability levels.So, take it as suggestions and lets work on questions and see what we can do to assist your progress.Begin... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RHill Posted January 7, 2013 Report Share Posted January 7, 2013 Sweet! I'll have to check this out tonight. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RidersDiscount Posted January 7, 2013 Report Share Posted January 7, 2013 One thing I've been trying to figure out/work on is how much and how soon can I start to apply the throttle? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
madcat6183 Posted January 7, 2013 Report Share Posted January 7, 2013 One thing I've been trying to figure out/work on is how much and how soon can I start to apply the throttle?Yep, this was my biggest hold back last year in the turns, lines were good, braking, etc. but I was always scared I would apply too early and lose the back. I think confidence and knowing when/how to apply thottle correctly is definitely key. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
candybluzx6 Posted January 7, 2013 Report Share Posted January 7, 2013 I have been waiting for more goodness from you Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Helmutt Posted January 7, 2013 Report Share Posted January 7, 2013 I know I have trouble with throttle ap, how soon and how much.....but my bike is all wrong to begin with and surely needs some attention with susp setup. Someday I'd like a cheap track specific machine and really learn what I'm capable of doing instead of tiptoeing around corners, slowly braking in, and slowly powering out, but the vast majority of my experience are random courses planned out on my local backroads; and albeit fairly clean surfaces ( usually, that is ), they're far from a good learning tool. I plan to hit MidO this year for sure so you guys can school me the right way.I understand a good bit of the physics mentally, with how perpetual/centrifugal forces work with/against the bike and rider - but I definitely need to physically learn the way these forces FEEL and how their limits apply in a real world environment at the track......but not beyond the limits to where a shovel is needed to get back to the pits Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Moto-Brian Posted January 7, 2013 Author Report Share Posted January 7, 2013 One thing I've been trying to figure out/work on is how much and how soon can I start to apply the throttle?That's the magic question. It all depends on skillset and ability as much as the braking and mid turn coming to that point. It's like braking really. You need to build up that skillset and work up the ladder. To dive in isn't possible. You have some great skills already, it is a matter of getting someone behind you to listen and watch you and help to let you know when you are driving and when you can do it sooner... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Moto-Brian Posted January 7, 2013 Author Report Share Posted January 7, 2013 I know I have trouble with throttle ap, how soon and how much.....but my bike is all wrong to begin with and surely needs some attention with susp setup. Someday I'd like a cheap track specific machine and really learn what I'm capable of doing instead of tiptoeing around corners, slowly braking in, and slowly powering out, but the vast majority of my experience are random courses planned out on my local backroads; and albeit fairly clean surfaces ( usually, that is ), they're far from a good learning tool. I plan to hit MidO this year for sure so you guys can school me the right way.I understand a good bit of the physics mentally, with how perpetual/centrifugal forces work with/against the bike and rider - but I definitely need to physically learn the way these forces FEEL and how their limits apply in a real world environment at the track......but not beyond the limits to where a shovel is needed to get back to the pits Dude, we need to get you to a track. No matter how mush seat time on the street, it all means next to nothing on the track. You will understand the bike and what it does SOOOOO much more than you'll ever get on the street.Think of it this way - track = more improved street rider. Street = not a whole lotta help.I can take a green horn to the track with ability and he will advance faster than a solid and experienced street rider. Why? he doesn't have the bad habits typically formed on the street. The first lesson of track day stuff is to rid the riders of street habits. Now, before everyone gets their G-String in a knot, I am not saying street will NOT help. Street riding and understanding the physics is great and will help you. But, having a clean slate is also a great place to start because you are a blank canvas. My son will be a track kid and learn at the track before we do the street thing. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
madcat6183 Posted January 8, 2013 Report Share Posted January 8, 2013 Dude, we need to get you to a track. No matter how mush seat time on the street, it all means next to nothing on the track. You will understand the bike and what it does SOOOOO much more than you'll ever get on the street.Think of it this way - track = more improved street rider. Street = not a whole lotta help.I can take a green horn to the track with ability and he will advance faster than a solid and experienced street rider. Why? he doesn't have the bad habits typically formed on the street. The first lesson of track day stuff is to rid the riders of street habits. Now, before everyone gets their G-String in a knot, I am not saying street will NOT help. Street riding and understanding the physics is great and will help you. But, having a clean slate is also a great place to start because you are a blank canvas. My son will be a track kid and learn at the track before we do the street thing.You know my man thong is always in a knot, like my balloon knot. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Helmutt Posted January 8, 2013 Report Share Posted January 8, 2013 Dude, we need to get you to a track. No matter how mush seat time on the street, it all means next to nothing on the track. You will understand the bike and what it does SOOOOO much more than you'll ever get on the street.Think of it this way - track = more improved street rider. Street = not a whole lotta help.I can take a green horn to the track with ability and he will advance faster than a solid and experienced street rider. Why? he doesn't have the bad habits typically formed on the street. The first lesson of track day stuff is to rid the riders of street habits. Now, before everyone gets their G-String in a knot, I am not saying street will NOT help. Street riding and understanding the physics is great and will help you. But, having a clean slate is also a great place to start because you are a blank canvas. My son will be a track kid and learn at the track before we do the street thing.My plan is to hit the gates with ZERO intentions of displaying bad habits, but I'm sure a few will naturally spill out the first couple sessions since all I know is all I know.I'm going there to forget what I'm doing wrong, and learn what I need to do right. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Helmutt Posted January 8, 2013 Report Share Posted January 8, 2013 Who all here instructs at MidO? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Moto-Brian Posted January 8, 2013 Author Report Share Posted January 8, 2013 Who all here instructs at MidO?Only a few, but you are welcome to come over and I would be more than willing to assist.I am possibly going to be in more of an instructional role this season, but not sure... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Helmutt Posted January 8, 2013 Report Share Posted January 8, 2013 Only a few, but you are welcome to come over and I would be more than willing to assist.I am possibly going to be in more of an instructional role this season, but not sure...Awesome, be good to get some 'at right' and finally meet ya too Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RidersDiscount Posted January 9, 2013 Report Share Posted January 9, 2013 The hardest corner I deal with is the long right hand sweeper going into the bus stop at Grattan (CW). With the elevation changes, bumps, etc., I never seem to know how much throttle I can apply. But then I see other guys just railing it around that turn, is this sweeper not as hard as I'm making it? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
blue03636 Posted January 9, 2013 Report Share Posted January 9, 2013 The hardest corner I deal with is the long right hand sweeper going into the bus stop at Grattan (CW). With the elevation changes, bumps, etc., I never seem to know how much throttle I can apply. But then I see other guys just railing it around that turn, is this sweeper not as hard as I'm making it?Just don't go wide through it where it humps up and you can haul ass through it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dubguy85 Posted January 9, 2013 Report Share Posted January 9, 2013 The hardest corner I deal with is the long right hand sweeper going into the bus stop at Grattan (CW). With the elevation changes, bumps, etc., I never seem to know how much throttle I can apply. But then I see other guys just railing it around that turn, is this sweeper not as hard as I'm making it?Not to mention it is kinda blind as well. And then I always target fixate on the fence or Porto john or whatever the hell is in that corner over there. Lol Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RidersDiscount Posted January 9, 2013 Report Share Posted January 9, 2013 Just don't go wide through it where it humps up and you can haul ass through it.The initial hump after the bowl or halfway through the turn? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
blue03636 Posted January 9, 2013 Report Share Posted January 9, 2013 The one where it drops down to the bus stop, think it's half way through. If you go wide it really drops off and the front will let loose. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
r1crusher Posted January 9, 2013 Report Share Posted January 9, 2013 This sounds like a comment from experience. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
blue03636 Posted January 9, 2013 Report Share Posted January 9, 2013 This sounds like a comment from experience.Yea, don't really care to wheelie while leaned over, makes it hard to turn. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
r1crusher Posted January 9, 2013 Report Share Posted January 9, 2013 Yea, don't really care to wheelie while leaned over, makes it hard to turn.Hhhmm...I watch guys do it all the time on TV. Maybe you just need more seat time. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RidersDiscount Posted January 9, 2013 Report Share Posted January 9, 2013 The one where it drops down to the bus stop, think it's half way through. If you go wide it really drops off and the front will let loose.Ah ok, that makes sense. Now I've just gotta wait four months to try it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
blue03636 Posted January 9, 2013 Report Share Posted January 9, 2013 Ah ok, that makes sense. Now I've just gotta wait four months to try it.Once you crest there, hammer on the gas down to the bus stop. I still have a lot of time I want to drop there, would like to see 25s. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dubguy85 Posted January 9, 2013 Report Share Posted January 9, 2013 Once you crest there, hammer on the gas down to the bus stop. I still have a lot of time I want to drop there, would like to see 25s.25's is scooting pretty good.. I think my best was around a 30ish.. Maybe 32 i forget.. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
blue03636 Posted January 9, 2013 Report Share Posted January 9, 2013 25's is scooting pretty good.. I think my best was around a 30ish.. Maybe 32 i forget..I was doing 28s in 2010 which is the last time I was there. I think I can make up some good time in a few places. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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