blue03636 Posted February 19, 2013 Report Share Posted February 19, 2013 If it were me I would just go race it as is and get the suspension when you can swing it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Moto-Brian Posted February 19, 2013 Report Share Posted February 19, 2013 My racing experience or lack thereof has no bearing when I suggested: observe and act on your observations.Yes, I followed up with the spring example, but it was to reiterate the above; observe and act on your observations. Why don't you quote and point out where I told anyone to band aid or half ass their suspension setup? Maybe I missed the part where I gave equipment suggestions and bad info.I think your use of "band aid" is completely incorrect. Lets use my respringing as an example:Temporarily cranking preload and compression dampening to compensate for bottoming is the band aid in this scenario, but what is the proper corrective action? Stiffer springs or adjust the spring spacer(I'd consider that a band aid, unless you are fine tuning).What did I say my action was going to be? Stiffer springs.Will it fix all my suspension issues? Doubtful, valving is going to be too soft judging from the brake dive, but I won't know for sure until I test the adjustment range with the new springs.Will my choice to respring be beneficial? Hell yes, it will put the preload in range and allow me to make proper adjustments for sag allowing the valving to act over a longer stoke. So even if the valving is too soft, it will have more range to act on. Is respringing a band aid? Hell noDid I tell the OP to go get new springs? No, I asked if he has adjusted and observed his suspension.Got it. Take suspension to Hill for repair and service. Thanks.I said that the way you are going about the suspension on your race bike is a band aide attempt. Meaning, it could be your finances dictate you cannot do it at this time. Could mean you just don't want to spend the money. Could mean you have no idea and just are winging it. Any of those ways, it is a band aide to add simply springs for race use. Valving and the shim stacks are such that your range of tuning is limited. Yes, as I mentioned a thousand times at this point, springs will help. But again... Adding springs is only going to band aide the issue at hand.Look at this way. The RC8 which I have just a tad few laps on in stock form have springs that are set for my weight. However, the valving and the oil level and related are not enough for race use. RACE USE. I hit the limitations of the suspension almost immediately. Can I race with it or around it? Sure! Hell, I raced VMD on a bone stock RC8 with bone stock suspension and won against a superbike 1098... But, was I riding around the suspension? Yes. Would I have gone faster with better The issue is that you can do something like the trackday guys do with stock suspension and crank in preload and compression to accommodate the stock stuff. That is a band aide. Or, you can add springs and stick with stock valving and the stock shim stacks. That's also a band aide...I am worried that things like your comments on brake dive being a valving issue. It is a combination of different things. Hell, it can be that you grab a shit pile of brakes on entry and are not smooth that can cause severe brake dive... It isn't always JUST the springs. It also isn't always JUST the valving. It sometimes isn't BOTH. Here's what I will add and be done with this winter questioning and expert responses BS that goes on every winter. Suspension is something that needs to be done and worked on by those that understand it. Internet readings and how-to-handbooks aren't the way to learn. Half the people I run into that tell others how the suspension works can't even tell if they have any setup issues on their bike.Quick story... Instructor at a track day company. Has a decent amount of laps and is a decent rider. However, he has read a lot, listens to everyone and has a skewed idea towards suspension. Regurgitates info rather well, but doesn't understand tire wear, what causes it, what or why his bike does what it does. I've listened to him tell another new rider how to setup suspension and related ideas in regards to suspension. Is that a guy that should be doing that and providing such an impression to a new rider that probably will go out and try what he is taught? All I am trying to say is this. Suspension for racing is something that is more important than anything. It needs to be balanced and if YOU want to succeed, you can band aide the stuff or you can buy the right components that will only help YOU GET BETTER AS A RIDER.Band aides are easy and unfortunately as I MENTIONED, some cannot afford components like I suggested. That's fine. But they are band aides. Is it better than bone stock and settling for the springs and oil that is in your bike stock? YES! But, it is like tires. You can run Street only tires, street/track tires or race tires when racing. Some guys can go faster on street tires than guys on full blown race tires. Ability can allow someone to ride around issues that are present. But, is it ideal? Is it allowing the BEST out of the rider AND bike? You can race on stock suspension, stock with heavier springs or race on suspension that even if money is an issue, on something like the GP Susupension 25mm kit and a used Penske. All can be done. Which will net the best results and allow you to excel?Why be held back due to suspension? How long can one be held back and learn only to ride on shit while the rest of the class advances and gets better? There is a learning process with even better suspension components. Better suspension doesn't always mean you instantly get better and faster. You need to tune the machine to be better. It's a fine tuned instrument and adding better components will deeper the tune rate. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Moto-Brian Posted February 19, 2013 Report Share Posted February 19, 2013 If it were me I would just go race it as is and get the suspension when you can swing it.I agree to a point. I think at worse case, he needs to make sure the springs are correct and that he should have the oil changed and level set. But, I agree. Run until you can afford the right stuff... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
madcat6183 Posted February 19, 2013 Report Share Posted February 19, 2013 I agree to a point. I think at worse case, he needs to make sure the springs are correct and that he should have the oil changed and level set. But, I agree. Run until you can afford the right stuff...When you speak(type in this case) my legs wobbel and I get all hott and bothered. Oh the homoness on OR and MSI cannot wait for this season! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RHill Posted February 19, 2013 Report Share Posted February 19, 2013 Got it. Take suspension to Hill for repair and service. Thanks.I must have missed it mixed in with the condescending BS, did you quote the area where I told someone to half ass their suspension? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Moto-Brian Posted February 19, 2013 Report Share Posted February 19, 2013 I must have missed it mixed in with the condescending BS, did you quote the area where I told someone to half ass their suspension?Now you're calling it half ass... Here's the drill. I called adding just springs a band aide. You got butt hurt. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RHill Posted February 19, 2013 Report Share Posted February 19, 2013 Band aid and half ass are synonyms in my book 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hollywood33 Posted February 19, 2013 Report Share Posted February 19, 2013 Well, to give you an idea of what's out there, I just made a deal for an Elka three way shock and a set of forks with 25 mm Ohlins cartridges in them for my 07 ZX6R (same bike) for a thousand bucks. Already set up for my weight too, which is nice. Brian will probably say I'm half assing it, or putting a band-aid on it or some shit, but I'm pretty happy with the deal. Will be a massive improvement over the stock suspension I raced on last year, although I think I did just fine on it for my first year racing. And plenty of parts out there for our ZX6R's, just look on the WERA classifieds or Kawiforums... I've never had a problem finding what I needed if I had a month or so to find it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
madcat6183 Posted February 19, 2013 Report Share Posted February 19, 2013 Well, to give you an idea of what's out there, I just made a deal for an Elka three way shock and a set of forks with 25 mm Ohlins cartridges in them for my 07 ZX6R (same bike) for a thousand bucks. Already set up for my weight too, which is nice. Brian will probably say I'm half assing it, or putting a band-aid on it or some shit, but I'm pretty happy with the deal. Will be a massive improvement over the stock suspension I raced on last year, although I think I did just fine on it for my first year racing. And plenty of parts out there for our ZX6R's, just look on the WERA classifieds or Kawiforums... I've never had a problem finding what I needed if I had a month or so to find it.Youre not dead? Sweet, I miss your tight little ginger b*tthole. Can we shag soon? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hollywood33 Posted February 19, 2013 Report Share Posted February 19, 2013 Youre not dead? Sweet, I miss your tight little ginger b*tthole. Can we shag soon?Sure, buddy. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
blue03636 Posted February 19, 2013 Report Share Posted February 19, 2013 Quick story... Instructor at a track day company. Has a decent amount of laps and is a decent rider. However, he has read a lot, listens to everyone and has a skewed idea towards suspension. Regurgitates info rather well, but doesn't understand tire wear, what causes it, what or why his bike does what it does. I've listened to him tell another new rider how to setup suspension and related ideas in regards to suspension. Is that a guy that should be doing that and providing such an impression to a new rider that probably will go out and try what he is taught? Why do you have to talk about me like that? I agree to a point. I think at worse case, he needs to make sure the springs are correct and that he should have the oil changed and level set. But, I agree. Run until you can afford the right stuff...Sorry, I did mean that the stuff should be refreshed and as for springs he should be good (not really knowing his weight or riding style), it comes with 0.9 or 0.95 I can't remember. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Moto-Brian Posted February 19, 2013 Report Share Posted February 19, 2013 Band aid and half ass are synonyms in my bookDoesn't surprise me. Band aide was detailed in my responses. If you think it is the same as half assed? That's your deal. Band aide - only using springs and oil to get your bike's suspension ready for racing. You need more done, but due to finances, time or ignorance - you decide to only do springs and refresh.Half assed - when someone doesn't know what they are doing and skips steps in the assembly process. Puts shit together with the wrong tools and doesn't do what is needed in an effort to do the job right. So, putting in springs AS I STATED is a band aide, but is better than stock. If you assemble those pieces and decide you don't need to change the oil cause your lazy, that's cutting corners and doing things half assed.You can assemble a set of forks after cleaning with care and making sure everything is to spec and cleaned properly and oil put in at the right level and use of the right springs. All assembled correctly and professionally. OR, you can cut corners, not clean the forks and leave them assembled and not getting everything checked. Just turn upside down, drain, pop the cap off and replace the springs and measure the oil with a guesstimate on level. That's half assed. Half assed is the work. Band aide is the need for more to be done, but you can only afford doing the springs. There is still an issue that will eventually pop it's head up and will need addressed later. You've made the wound better, but not 100% healed... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Moto-Brian Posted February 19, 2013 Report Share Posted February 19, 2013 Well, to give you an idea of what's out there, I just made a deal for an Elka three way shock and a set of forks with 25 mm Ohlins cartridges in them for my 07 ZX6R (same bike) for a thousand bucks. Already set up for my weight too, which is nice. Brian will probably say I'm half assing it, or putting a band-aid on it or some shit, but I'm pretty happy with the deal. Will be a massive improvement over the stock suspension I raced on last year, although I think I did just fine on it for my first year racing. And plenty of parts out there for our ZX6R's, just look on the WERA classifieds or Kawiforums... I've never had a problem finding what I needed if I had a month or so to find it.Not sure why I would think that is half assed??You have something better than stock and will be able to tune properly and more accurately. The shock is iffy, but in the end, it is better than stock. Being a three way, you have the ability to fine tune moreso. That's the point... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hollywood33 Posted February 19, 2013 Report Share Posted February 19, 2013 Not sure why I would think that is half assed??You have something better than stock and will be able to tune properly and more accurately. The shock is iffy, but in the end, it is better than stock. Being a three way, you have the ability to fine tune moreso. That's the point...Just had to fuck with you a bit... c'mon, you know how we do it on here! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Moto-Brian Posted February 19, 2013 Report Share Posted February 19, 2013 Just had to fuck with you a bit... c'mon, you know how we do it on here!Whew! I was worried that I pissed someone off that I see out there and who isn't a know it all. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Moto-Brian Posted February 19, 2013 Report Share Posted February 19, 2013 Just a bit of food for thought, but Brandon over at AFJ made a REALLY strong point to consider. Take a weekend off from racing and take that amount saved and buy suspension. A weekend is easily going to be $1k. That buys exactly what Holly bought... The one race weekend will net zero points, but at the end of the day, your suspension will net a much greater result... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
madcat6183 Posted February 19, 2013 Report Share Posted February 19, 2013 Just had to fuck with you a bit... c'mon, you know how we do it on here!This, FTW!!! It's our family away from Family! Well except I think my pregger wife is coming out this season with me too. Want the baby around as much race stuff as I can get her to come to.Yeah, I reproduced, look out world!! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
blue03636 Posted February 19, 2013 Report Share Posted February 19, 2013 This, FTW!!! It's our family away from Family! Well except I think my pregger wife is coming out this season with me too. Want the baby around as much race stuff as I can get her to come to.Yeah, I reproduced, look out world!!Didn't know trannys could get prego Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RHill Posted February 19, 2013 Report Share Posted February 19, 2013 Doesn't surprise me. Band aide was detailed in my responses. If you think it is the same as half assed? That's your deal. Band aide - only using springs and oil to get your bike's suspension ready for racing. You need more done, but due to finances, time or ignorance - you decide to only do springs and refresh.Half assed - when someone doesn't know what they are doing and skips steps in the assembly process. Puts shit together with the wrong tools and doesn't do what is needed in an effort to do the job right. So, putting in springs AS I STATED is a band aide, but is better than stock. If you assemble those pieces and decide you don't need to change the oil cause your lazy, that's cutting corners and doing things half assed.You can assemble a set of forks after cleaning with care and making sure everything is to spec and cleaned properly and oil put in at the right level and use of the right springs. All assembled correctly and professionally. OR, you can cut corners, not clean the forks and leave them assembled and not getting everything checked. Just turn upside down, drain, pop the cap off and replace the springs and measure the oil with a guesstimate on level. That's half assed. Half assed is the work. Band aide is the need for more to be done, but you can only afford doing the springs. There is still an issue that will eventually pop it's head up and will need addressed later. You've made the wound better, but not 100% healed...I'm still missing this post where I suggested any of the above to the OP. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hollywood33 Posted February 19, 2013 Report Share Posted February 19, 2013 This, FTW!!! It's our family away from Family! Well except I think my pregger wife is coming out this season with me too. Want the baby around as much race stuff as I can get her to come to.Yeah, I reproduced, look out world!!Listen, man, try not to be too upset when the baby pops out and has beautiful, flaming red hair. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
madcat6183 Posted February 19, 2013 Report Share Posted February 19, 2013 Didn't know trannys could get pregoI hate you, I am going to shoot you in the d*ck with the gun I bought from you. Then we will see who becomes the tranny. Hollywood, it would be an honor for me to raise your child with my wife. Wait, is that weird or okay these days? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hollywood33 Posted February 19, 2013 Report Share Posted February 19, 2013 Hollywood, it would be an honor for me to raise your child with my wife. Wait, is that weird or okay these days?Well shit I hope it's ok, hahaha. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
OSUYZFR1 Posted February 19, 2013 Report Share Posted February 19, 2013 Quick story... Instructor at a track day company. Has a decent amount of laps and is a decent rider. However, he has read a lot, listens to everyone and has a skewed idea towards suspension. Regurgitates info rather well, but doesn't understand tire wear, what causes it, what or why his bike does what it does. I've listened to him tell another new rider how to setup suspension and related ideas in regards to suspension. Is that a guy that should be doing that and providing such an impression to a new rider that probably will go out and try what he is taught? OK, now you got me wondering if this is somebody I've worked with. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Moto-Brian Posted February 19, 2013 Report Share Posted February 19, 2013 OK, now you got me wondering if this is somebody I've worked with. Nah, not at Mid-O... You're all good!! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
madcat6183 Posted February 19, 2013 Report Share Posted February 19, 2013 Nah, not at Mid-O... You're all good!!Obviously he means Craig. There Craig, gotcha. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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