Geeto67

Actually, you should know this - because it was a "national" walk out. The students and faculty of Stoneman Douglas partnered with the Not for Profit group Women's March Youth through their "Empower" program. They put the word out through social media and the individual schools had the opportunity to participate or not. In most school districts, kids were going to walk out regardless as to whether the faculty approved it or not - some took the imitative and organized a safe environment, others handed out punishment for skipping school, but honestly no school so far had forced their students to participate full stop. Remember the Women's march? well out of that several smaller groups came together to form a larger nfp organization, and that organization now has a youth program to help those who want to protest for social change in high school. Remember when we were having the conversation about the womens march and all these CR commenters were complaining that it wouldn't do anything and I pointed out that sometimes protests like that are recruitment, fund raising, and organization tools as well as a pep rally? well you are seeing the actual result of that - this is one of the ways protest is effective: It gets people active on certain issues and allows groups to grow and increase political influence. Protest is not usually one event and the world changes - it is one tool in a larger paramilitary campaign for social change. Gun violence was an issue at the women's march since the largest demographic of gun violence victims are women.

From what I remember about being in High School, my peers has way more influence than any teacher would. Still, I am probably a bad example because I was always looking for a place to be able to do homework so I wouldn't have to do it at home. There were plenty of instances where I sat out of activities and had no problem doing so. There were very few teachers that I would compromise my ideals for, and the ones that I would I often found to be aligned with on most things anyway. Is there a power differential? sure, but unlike the sexual assault example you pose above, those with the power in schools have a pretty ironclad duty to protect the interests of the students - something Keven Spacey didn't have when he pressured young men for sex. Eddie Izzard's Cake or Death skit is one of my favorites and hilarious, but I feel like in this situation its more like Cake or rice cake, and you know some people actually like rice cakes - Spread a little peanut butter, some jam on there and it's not eating Styrofoam at all.

I’m game. I have some of the recording equipment, I’m sure someone here has done this before And can help. So a couple of thoughts about this: What are they coordinating and what are they encouraging specifically? Are they coordinating the safety of the event on behalf of the interest of the students? Or are they coordinating a teacher and faculty protest that the students are allowed to join into? Is there a problem with them doing either? keeping in mind that they have to account for student safety in both scenarios, it’s hard to find malice in logistics planning, esp when participation is voluntary. Encouraging is a little different. Are they encouraging the students to speak their mind and participate in the political process? Or are they encouraging the students to adopt a particular position? Again since all these are voluntary it’s hard to say they are encouraging or forcing their political viewpoint when they don’t offer any special credit, participation is voluntary, and they don’t penalize people for not attending. As far as a 2A protest, well context is key and each situation is unique. If they scheduled one unprovoked in the wake of a school shooting it could easily be seen as insensitive and the school could face public reprimand - not for scheduling a protest but for the insensitive nature of the protest. In response to the gun control protest however it’s acceptable as a juxtaposition. Remember school boards answer to the parents and voters in their district and one in Southern California might have a different view on insensitive than one in rural Ohio, so it’s a case by case basis sort of thing. If you want my personal opinion anything that makes kids interested in government and gets them to actively participate is a good thing. As long as student safety isn’t compromised.

Ask them what they used to tabulate value, invariably it will always be wrong. If they send you one of those third party reports double check every comparable vehicle.

Skip shift....is it stick? Nice score

Tell me why the problem doesn't need money spent on research? Seriously, tell me why you don't think we need to know one thing more about this topic? Follow up question: why is it so hard for you to answer this question? Point of clarification: you do understand the Dickey amendment does interfere with mental health research if it remotely involves a gun, right? I know I have mentioned it before, so this shouldn't be news.

In b4 someone posts one of those bogus articles about the kid in Hillard (again).

So ignorance is your party line. got it. Is it? because by your two quotes above it's pretty clear you have no interest in anything that opposes your viewpoint. Seems pretty clear where you stand on this issue. You literally gave the text book definition of confirmation bias: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Confirmation_bias I don't have to be an expert in anything for you to be objectively wrong. I didn't make the problem, and it is complex. Research would tell us if the solution is equally complex or if there is a choke point that could provide a simple or effective solution. Tell me why the problem doesn't need money spent on research? Seriously, tell me why you don't think we need to know one thing more about this topic? Pretty sure my company can't fire me for sending dick picts to my wife. Or your wife for that matter (what's her number). They are some very specific parameters around dick picts which are pretty much financially driven in the financial sector. Also private companies are not the government, so the standards are different. This is another false equivalency: "These two things must be the same even though the entities and issues involved are completely different, derp". what don't I get? that you don't understand government, it's role, limits, restrictions, and methods? because I'm pretty clear on that.

Can I just say that I am chuffed at the English usage of the word twat in this thread.

So Adults then. You could have just said adults.

Actually, yes they are. The tactics of the NRA are pretty legendary in how they handle other groups and suppressing research. The fact that you can't even name the organization that would be the Anti-NRA is pretty telling. This is a completely false statement. this is consistently and objectively considered one of the more under researched public health concerns in the US. They are not big, or overpowering, but they are effective. In fact I would say they are the model for how to wield political power on a shoestring budget. The government is the biggest source of funds for independent research - by choking off that avenue, they have in effect killed almost all gun research in this country. If this were literally any other medical related ailment this would be considered an outrage, yet you are oddly ok with it because you consider it in your best interest to be ignorant rather than informed. And this is a prime example of the value of their effectiveness. They have set the world back decades by attacking this one choke point. That's not how research works. That's how bias confirmation works. Blah blah blah, more Tim is cynical and doesn't know what he is talking about nonsense. The point of government sponsored research is to fund independent study of a subject free from the interference of the marketplace and financial interests. To this end it has a huge ROI, gov't research kept the US at the top of innovation for decades in almost all fields of scientific study. The only way to prevent this in the area of guns is to prevent the research...which brings us back to the Dickey amendment.

I am "blaming" the NRA, I am holding them responsible for their actions that prevent all avenues of a solution from being explored. Just as I am holding you responsible for your actions that support that. It's not "blame" if you are actually partially or wholly responsible for the things you actually do, is it?

No, I am being critical of both your position that this has no place in school and your support of the pro-gun counter protest. Pick one Tim, they can have no place in school or everyone gets a voice. I've been pretty consistent in both pointing out that participation in the protest was voluntary, and that I have no issue with any counter protest, and I don't have a problem with this because #AmericanConstitutionalRights. You can voice your opinion, but since I am not the government I can be as critical of it as I like, just as you can be as critical of mine as you like (and have on many occasions). I am not saying you can't have your opinion, but you can't stop me from being vocal about it's flaws.

It's inconsistent between the states, and that's part of the problem. In states where it is in place it is hard to enforce and usually a lengthy process. Also it is a low priority for most law enforcement agencies so it isn't as enforced as it should be. I think only 5 states (Connecticut, California, Washington, Oregon, Indiana) have a true "Red Flags" law on the books. What is being proposed is much more streamlined system that honestly I have a lot of doubts about myself from a constitutional standpoint. Also I don't think any measure that doesn't come with a budget bill attached is doomed from the start. Also the NRA will challenge every single new gun control bill because that's what they do, so that will delay effectiveness.

Well these days I find myself stooping to your level just to have a conversation. except when it's one you support - like the pro gun counter protest, because fuck everything in the constitution that isn't 2A...amirite? How does a "pocket constitutionalist" such as yourself not understand the concepts of freedom of expression or freedom of assembly? It's literally the amendment that comes before the second one. because you are an expert in school budgeting and spending. Is there another way to interpret "this is the cost of freedom" as a response to a mass shooting? because I am all ears? OK, in addition to all the others who have responsibility for this tragedy, you have failed to prevent this because you continue to believe that deaths like these are completely necessary to protecting your misunderstanding of 2A rights, and support measures to prevent corrective action from being taken or to even study this area. You are right, calling out the failure of others is cathartic.

Tim has a history of saying "this is the cost of freedom" when we broach the topic of gun control. The number wasn't the important part of that statement, and I'm sorry that you got stuck on the 17 dead number so as to miss the crux of the point - when it comes to conversations about gun control - is "this is the cost of freedom" isn't really an acceptable answer. This is a logical inconsistency to you because in your mind you have compressed these two subjects down to the point where they are equal - which is largely false. Abortion and gun control are both complex subjects with no clear answer and to compress them down so at so appear morally equal is to just lie to yourself. To then say someone else is some how lesser because they don't buy your particular brand of lie that you created is disingenuous at best. Or to put it bluntly, there is no "liberal inconsistency", you just don't take the time to understand each issue and all it's view points. who the fuck is talking about bakeries in this thread? Who is talking about an unlimited budget? nobody here. Budgets have limits - and you know what education is a matter of national security (president Eisenhower knew this) . If they could re-direct 1/16th of what is spent on defense equipment alone we'd be back to being the #1 nation for education. And as for "parents paying for education"...well fuck the poor amirite? Blah blah blah....hey man, take some personal responsibility for your own ignorance. If you did you'd find out how little of what you are complaining about actually goes on. This is just you reinforcing the stereotype you believe in by shitting on some nameless faceless group. I am not calling you racist, I'm just saying that you are flat out wrong. You have expanded the definition of "liberal" to include everyone who doesn't agree with your position on things. Of course there are going to be inconsistencies - you cast a net that wide you catch all types of fish and some of them aren't friends in the wild.

Pretty sure nobody held a gun to these kids heads and told them to participate. I mean, I haven't read the news in an hour so maybe it happened but I am pretty sure it didn't. Oh good, the concept of voluntary isn't as lost on your kids as it is on you. No, you are just waiting for them to become actual victims because #authentic You can only split a dollar so many ways before you need more dollars. Education is underfunded as it stands now, but somehow they have to magically split the dollar another way with no loss of integrity to the resource. :dumb: You repeatedly have said after mass shootings that this is the cost of freedom in response to the proposed gun control laws that come out and never get passed. Are you changing your mind now? or do you just want to blame someone else because someone wants to take away your hobby guns? By the way, complaining that something is someone else's fault rather than recognizing that part of your own selfish desires is partially contributing to the problem is I'm sure the definition of victim mentality so way to be a whiny victim of gun control laws - it's a good look for you.

Why, are planned parenthood centers using guns now to provide women healthcare? Now Hush...the grown ups are talking.

your tax dollars and the resources are devoted to protecting the kids, including during activities which they support. How about you vote for people who want to spend more on education so they can actually do the job effectively and then we don't have to worry about 17 dead kids in FL and protests on school time......mmmkay... oh wait, 17 dead kids is what you feel is the cost of freedom.

This particular march was pretty specific in it's demands: https://www.cnn.com/2018/03/14/us/national-school-walkout-gun-violence-protests/index.html Additionally, generally speaking it was there to remind people of the link between gun laws and school shootings, and to show a form of solidarity with the victims of the parkland shootings. https://www.usatoday.com/story/news/2018/03/14/thousands-students-across-u-s-walk-out-class-today-protest-gun-violence/420731002/ Remember, the value of a protest is more than just the appeal to lawmakers it expresses on it's face - it's a recruitment tool and a PR tool as well. So where is the place for politics? Pretty sure every state has some sort of government or civics program which means they are already teaching politics. In fact I would go so far as to say it's not enough given the general lack of knowledge the average American seems to have about government. But it goes further than that, high school also lays the foundation for how to have controversial conversations, how to express opinions, basically how to interact with society in a meaningful way. In many ways you can look at these protests as an education in it's own - it's teaching students that your voice extends beyond the vote, and that collaboration has power. I think what you are assuming is that the protesting kids in this case are carrying out the political opinion of the teachers and faculty of the schools, and I don't know that I agree. I think your other statement is correct, we don't know everyone's motives, not even those of the schools' staff faculty. Kids have to be supervised so those groups are going to be involved no matter what, and the protest is one that affects them, but they also gave the option to not participate and plenty of schools didn't allow this at all and even penalized students who protested in spite of their school not being accommodating (which could be viewed as a suppression of free speech since schools are an extension of local government). It's probably some combination of all motivations: some schools allowed it because the staff and faculty agreed with the message, some schools allowed it because the students requested it and were persuasive, some schools gave forum to both sides because to them they felt it was the best way toward a teachable moment, some didn't allow it at all because of message, and some just didn't have the resources to support a protest. To what degree, who knows? and I'm ok with that, either way kids learn something. That's what church is for. Unfortunately, church has it's own recruitment agenda which causes a lot of that material to be forced into secular arenas. I coach public speaking and debate for adults in a corporate setting (not as a job - something I volunteer to do) and I can't tell you how many times the topic comes up or how often I have to steer people away from delivering a sermon in a business setting.

I agree, we shouldn't let them be home for sick time, or snow days either. And what's with this summer vacation silliness? other countries do year round school - what's wrong with the US not getting it's shit together on that? :dumb: Pretty sure their motives are pretty clear - they want some sort of political action so their schools are safe. Not every single kid has an ulterior motive, and honestly no single person I know has one motive for doing things, and that's ok. Nothing wrong with wanting a safer school AND pussy.

false equivalency much? I can't even comprehend the mental chasm you had to jump to link cigarette smoking to protests. I am not saying we should allow minors to go fight wars, what I am saying is that young people have always been and will always be politically involved - and this is a good thing. Protest is a form or political expression and whether you believe it or not it is mostly effective, esp over the long term. What good reason do you have to deny them something that has gone one since before either of us walked this planet? The world may be a much different place, but some things never change - like the young people of this world being an engine for change and people looking to shit on the young for literally just being young.

Not really sure why you hate the young so much. The youth culture (in every country) are usually the drivers of revolution and change. This isn't a new phenomenon, it goes back centuries. Protests during school aren't new either, they did them when I was in high school over 20 years ago, they did them when my uncle was in high school for the US involvement in Vietnam. The average age of the continental army was 20, which means there were a shit load of high school aged kids fighting the British. James Monroe (5th president of the united states) was 18 years old when he fought in the revolutionary war, as was Marquis de Lafyette. Andrew Jackson (who was 9 when the declaration was signed) became a courier during the revolution and was wounded by the British at age 14. I don't know why you think them protesting something that squarely hits home for them makes them "know it all" or "self righteous" - they are literally just doing what kids their age have done since the beginning of time. ad for some reason people have hated the young for it since the beginning of time: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ephebiphobia

I would think standing up to the bullying culture propagated of old men, like you, who think this is an appropriate way to talk about children makes them not Pussies. You don’t have to agree with their opinion, but it shouldn’t be asking to much for you to be a decent human being about it, should it?

Why? This is like that old wives tale about having to replace both wheel bearings at the same time. It's easier to do both while the car in in the shop because it's not a hard job and both can be done inside 2 hours but you don't HAVE to do it because of some mechanical reason. If you are doing the work yourself then just do it when the thing fails.