Nesba pirc 5/25-5/26

[aforrest4]

I ran NESBA years ago.

The event was well run and I had fun.

Recently I had a number of friends at a NESBA event at Road Atlanta and they had some issues. Something about running with, or without a kink? A different configuration then all the other motorcycle orgs. Apparently is caused some kind of safety issue that instigated a couple accidents. Since I wasn't there, I'm not sure. I believe this is the event Gixie is referring to.

But overall, I think NESBA is one of the better organized, and structured track day organizations. In my experience.

[Moto-Brian]

that's not what I said. I said they're the most consistently fast. Meaning every last NESBA CR can turn at least a 1:03 at BeaveRun, and 1:15 or so at Nelson (for reference).

I am well aware that other orgs have coaches who can destroy those times, but from what I have seen, other orgs also tend to have a lot of coaches who can't go that fast. They stick those guys with the newer riders. NESBA doesn't do that.

But if you want to make it a pissing contest, Brad Burns is a NESBA CR. Pretty sure he'd give Neyra a run for his money on any track.

You stated they have the most consistently fast instructors. Now you are saying they have the largest group of fast control riders.

And as for your pissing match, you might wanna not choose a boyfriend that can't run :57s at PIRC and that even lives there. Remember, you are the one that started the pissing match. Also, at Nelson, he needs to step it up also.

The point is simple. EVERY track day org has a series of fast guys that at any given moment could podium or win a race at a set track. To say that NESBA has the fastest is silly. They do have fast riders like any other org has. And yes, you can find times when all these guys get beat or run slower laps, etc. It isn't about that.

We get that you love NESBA. I get it. We get it. NESBA is a good track day company and track day orgs like STT are also changing things to where they are evaluating riders before they can go into Advanced. It makes sense.

But at the end of the day, there are two track day orgs that stand out. STT and NESBA. Those two are the top attended track day orgs in the business. NESBA has a reputation that seems to be a bit more negative and have had struggles in keeping events and staff. And, now that STT has opened their arms to fellow NESBA coaches, they are now doing both. Which in the end, could benefit NESBA a great deal.

Also, control riders are different than coaches that are different than instructors. Control riders are baby sitters.

The choice is simple - pick who you enjoy riding with. Pick an org that runs at a track you enjoy. They all have pluses and they all have weaknesses. If they didn't have both, there would be only one track day org in the country. That's why there are so many.

I would suggest, however, that you tend to support and argue with knowledge and experience. A handful of track days isn't a good way to support or debate anything. If you are friends with a majority of staff from a set org, then maybe it is less credible to be saying they are the best. I understand it is your opinion, but until you can provide us with how many track days you've done with the number of track day orgs out there, it tends to sound very biased.

Finally, it is less about fast and more about the results. I can give you thousands of examples where a coach, instructor, control rider, school, etc have less than stellar staff. Stellar being championships under their belts. Hell, some of the best schools I have seen are with staff that have zero championships. It is more about reaching the customer and adapting your skillset to improve them as riders. There are instructors that aren't the fastest and at any given track, can maybe get beat and place outside the podium. But, their knowledge and ability to instruct in a manner that helps riders well is the key. You keep talking pace and how on average, NESBA has faster "control riders". That may very well be the case. Fast doesn't mean shit when instructing. knowledge and ability to teach is what matters...

[Moto-Brian]

Didn't you just say you've never actually ridden a NESBA event?

You know an awful lot about a group of people you've never met, and have never ridden with.

You have an expert race license, which means you can contact them and star out in "A" group if you want. I think you'd be pleasantly surprised by the skill of the people around you, and how much smoother and safer your day will go than can happen with other orgs.

In the interest of fairness and full "disclosure," I have recently heard rumblings that STT no longer allows people to register in "A" without authorization as well. That was always my biggest issue with their system. I think it's a great improvement that they're addressing it.

How many Advanced track days have you done? You know an awful lot about a group you've never ridden with...

[Moto-Brian]

I ran NESBA years ago.

The event was well run and I had fun.

Recently I had a number of friends at a NESBA event at Road Atlanta and they had some issues. Something about running with, or without a kink? A different configuration then all the other motorcycle orgs. Apparently is caused some kind of safety issue that instigated a couple accidents. Since I wasn't there, I'm not sure. I believe this is the event Gixie is referring to.

But overall, I think NESBA is one of the better organized, and structured track day organizations. In my experience.

THIS. The reason why NESBA is considered one of the top track day orgs. They have structure and they run a good program overall.

The Road A scenario that I also heard about is an example of some of the things they do that leave you scratching your head. With all the "fast" control riders, one would think they would consider the idea that safety is key. If the group on a whole is faster than average track day groups, then they should have ran the configuration that the AMA uses... There's a reason they run it that way...

[redkow97]

I stopped reading your manifesto when you claimed control riders are just babysitters and not instructors.  That's just plain wrong.  Their first job is to make sure everyone is obeying the rules and riding in a safe manner, but that generally happens THROUGH instruction.  If NESBA CR's aren't doing any instruction, then I must have learned virtually everything I know about riding on my own.  That's ridiculous.

 

It's also clear that you know very little about me.  How many "Advanced" trackdays have I done?  I've lost count.  Maybe 10 or so with NESBA.  I cut back my trackday schedule when I started racing.  With STT?   Maybe 4 or 5 days in Advanced, although I don't recall if some of the Mid-Ohio dates were while STT was still running there. STT once bumped me up during registration at Gingerman, because "I" was overbooked by 20 riders (many from this site were there), and my bike was safety wired.  Because that's why you should be moved up to Advanced...  It turned out to be a blessing, as I was probably faster than half the "A" group registrants anyway.  With MotoSeries?  Again, I'm not sure.  Probably 8 or so Advanced trackdays over the last couple of years, and a couple of race weekends when I could swing the coin.

 

I'm not claiming to know everything about any of the orgs mentioned, but I know what I have experienced.  You're the one making incorrect statements (or at least incorrect implications) about me, and what I know.

 

As for "my boyfriend" Brad, I believe you're wrong about that as well, but I'll have to check if he's run a :57 at BeaveRun.  "needs to step up his game at Nelson."  I believe he'd say, "I need to step up my game everywhere.  That's what it's all about."

Edited May 21, 2013 by redkow97

[blue03636]

Not to piss anyone off but there are 3 names for someone that helps at the track, instructor, coach, or CR. If nesba does use the term CR then they are basically there to keep order not instruct or coach people. I'm not sure what the official term is that they use. 

[madcat6183]

Not to piss anyone off but there are 3 names for someone that helps at the track, instructor, coach, or CR. If nesba does use the term CR then they are basically there to keep order not instruct or coach people. I'm not sure what the official term is that they use. 

Stop pissing on me.

[redkow97]

Not to piss anyone off but there are 3 names for someone that helps at the track, instructor, coach, or CR. If nesba does use the term CR then they are basically there to keep order not instruct or coach people. I'm not sure what the official term is that they use. 

 

And you've done how many days with NESBA? 

 

A name is just a name.  The CR shirts say "FOLLOW ME" on the back for fuck's sake!  Yes, they will pull slower riders off-line at times to control traffic in "B" group, but then they show the slower rider how to get faster.  That's instructing.

[blue03636]

Zero but the name says it all as to what their main job is. This is why groups that have a novice program are called instructors and most schools are coaches as they have different jobs. This would be no different they saying someone that makes fries is an accountant, they are different jobs.

[redkow97]

I think your analogy is highly flawed.

 

I can call two different people an "automotive technician," or  "mechanic," but they're still doing basically the same job.  They're also doing things that their title does not say at all, but that are implied (like test-driving the vehicle after a repair).

 

I can't believe so much is being made over the term "control rider."  I can promise you that "control riders" do plenty of instructing, or coaching, or teaching, or whatever else you want to call it.

Edited May 21, 2013 by redkow97

[jbot]

i think it's great that you enjoy riding with NESBA.

 

keep trash talking like you do about the other trackday/racing orgs, that's surely the best way to positively promote the org of your choice.  you definitely don't come off as a defensive, snobby, fanboy douche at all.

[redkow97]

i think it's great that you enjoy riding with NESBA.

 

keep trash talking like you do about the other trackday/racing orgs, that's surely the best way to positively promote the org of your choice.  you definitely don't come off as a defensive, snobby, fanboy douche at all.

 

which orgs did I bash?  Quote me on it.

 

I've ridden with NESBA, WERA, and MotoSeries within the last year or so.  I probably would have ridden with STT last season too, but I didn't get up to Michigan.

Edited May 21, 2013 by redkow97

[madcat6183]

So anyone actually running this event, or uh not? 

[jbot]

other than the thinly veiled arrogance of how NESBA is teh fastest evar? i'm sure you'll back that up with all the mylaps timing records.

Like I said, NESBA's rules force you to learn to move up a group. Other orgs might be considered "better" if your goal is just to go out and have a good time, without really caring about specifically building your skills.\

STT once bumped me up during registration at Gingerman, because "I" was overbooked by 20 riders (many from this site were there), and my bike was safety wired.  Because that's why you should be moved up to Advanced...

 

couple that with things you've said in other threads, it's tiresome and sad.  you're a good rider, and you like riding at the track.  that's awesome.  no need to go all "apple is better than android omg" everytime somebody says the five letter acronym that induces you to go into back breaking orgasms.  i rode with NESBA once or twice, and it was a good experience.  any better than STT or motoseries?  not really.  they're all a little different.

 

So anyone actually running this event, or uh not? 

 

i would be, but i'll be in boston that weekend and Nelson is right after that.  must conserve tires.

[redkow97]

I relayed a factual account of a first-hand experience I had with STT at a trackday at Gingerman. 

 

All I've heard from Brian, Craig, and Brandon is "I've never actually ridden with NESBA, but I heard _________."

 

Furthermore, virtually all of my posts have been in response to the NESBA-bashing that started on page 1 of this thread.  I didn't show up asserting that NESBA was the best, or anyone else was worse. The comment I made regarding the slowest NESBA CR's being faster than the slowest instructors with other orgs was premised with "IMHO," so clearly my OPINION, and not to be construed as a fact.

 

I will whole-heartedly agree with you that each org runs things a bit differently, and as a result, there are pros and cons to each method.

 

What I will continually dispute are assertions, phrased as fact, that are simply incorrect.  The notion that Control Riders aren't instructing riders on how to improve is wrong.  The notion that NESBA staff only allows their friends to move to the Advanced group is wrong. 

 

The OP asked a question.  All I'm trying to do is ensure he gets correct information in the responses given.

Edited May 21, 2013 by redkow97

[blue03636]

So let me ask you this, how many orgs have you coached, CR, or instructed for. I'm telling you there is a difference. How about this, football has a coach not a control person.

[redkow97]

So let me ask you this, how many orgs have you coached, CR, or instructed for. I'm telling you there is a difference. How about this, football has a coach not a control person.

 

I have never instructed for any track-based activity, nor did I ever claim to.

 

I also never said there wasn't a difference, but I still flatly disagree with the idea that "control riders" are only out there to "control" and not also instruct.  I have been instructed on many occassions by countless control riders.  That's how I became friends with them.  They observed my riding, passed me, showed me what I was doing wrong, and then waved me by to make sure I was getting it.  Then after the session, they stop at the exit of hot-pit and talked to me about things, and instructed me further.  Many times they would even tell me to come back to their pit setup, so we could talk more (in the shade, and without helmets).  Just because there isn't a "classroom curriculum" doesn't mean there isn't teaching going on. 

[RHill]

I only have experience with MotoSeries, but I'd venture to guess that some instructors are more like control riders and some control riders are more like instructors.

Since there was a big discussion about A groups and I didn't see it mentioned, what are the requirements for MotoSeries A? Besides safety wiring? I don't think I've seen anything else on their site.

[Moto-Brian]

I relayed a factual account of a first-hand experience I had with STT at a trackday at Gingerman. 

 

All I've heard from Brian, Craig, and Brandon is "I've never actually ridden with NESBA, but I heard _________."

 

Furthermore, virtually all of my posts have been in response to the NESBA-bashing that started on page 1 of this thread.  I didn't show up asserting that NESBA was the best, or anyone else was worse. The comment I made regarding the slowest NESBA CR's being faster than the slowest instructors with other orgs was premised with "IMHO," so clearly my OPINION, and not to be construed as a fact.

 

I will whole-heartedly agree with you that each org runs things a bit differently, and as a result, there are pros and cons to each method.

 

What I will continually dispute are assertions, phrased as fact, that are simply incorrect.  The notion that Control Riders aren't instructing riders on how to improve is wrong.  The notion that NESBA staff only allows their friends to move to the Advanced group is wrong. 

 

The OP asked a question.  All I'm trying to do is ensure he gets correct information in the responses given.

 

Actually, I have ridden with NESBA before.  And, aside from directing with STT, I can promise you I have more track day org experience than most.  Not saying it is superior - just saying the number of events you've stated you've done, I have done in about a year or close to...

 

As for the control rider comment, you need to understand a few things.  Kevin Swantz will refuse to call his guys control riders.  Control riders insinuate that they control the flow of the riders on course.  Control being the key word.  Instructing is different than coaching also.  

 

You call a tech a mechanic and after you've dodged thrown wrenches, you might understand there is a difference.

 

Professor to teacher to student teacher.  All different...  All teach at different levels...  Some don't teach.

 

Your use of control riders is fine in your mind.  But when talking to guys that have been doing this for a long time, it means something specific.  

 

Finally, lap times.  You can check all day and all night.  I checked Mylaps...  Your buddy isn't running :57s.  And, he isn't going to get 1:07s at Nelson like some slow ass STT instructors can.  Point is this.  Brad is probably a great guy and humble like a lot of other guys.  You are doing him a dis-service talking about him.  I can promise you that lap times don't mean jack shit.  Maybe everyone was running slower due to track conditions that event recorded.  Maybe he had an off weekend.  Maybe he was riding a new bike.  All types of things.  You wanting to claim NESBA has the "consistently fastest" staff is stupid and immature.  And, bashes every other org.  It isn't a pissing contest, bro.  It's about what you get in terms of return.  It's been said numerous times that NESBA runs a good operation.  Regarded as one of the top recognized orgs for track days out there.  Get over yourself.

 

You need to quit with the know all about NESBA.  The thing to realize here is that while some of the guys like Gixxie and Craig haven't ridden with NESBA, they know several that have and can articulate their experiences so that Gixxie and Craig can easily understand.  The thing those two guys have over someone like yourself is they ARE instructors and have experience for years in doing so.  So, when someone tells them their experience with NESBA and they feel it is factual and not over the top, they can assess the issues and talk with knowledge and fact as to what they heard.

 

In the end as stated a million times already - NESBA runs a good show.  So do several other orgs.  Ride with whom you feel the most comfortable with and have fun!

[Moto-Brian]

I have never instructed for any track-based activity, nor did I ever claim to.

 

I also never said there wasn't a difference, but I still flatly disagree with the idea that "control riders" are only out there to "control" and not also instruct.  I have been instructed on many occassions by countless control riders.  That's how I became friends with them.  They observed my riding, passed me, showed me what I was doing wrong, and then waved me by to make sure I was getting it.  Then after the session, they stop at the exit of hot-pit and talked to me about things, and instructed me further.  Many times they would even tell me to come back to their pit setup, so we could talk more (in the shade, and without helmets).  Just because there isn't a "classroom curriculum" doesn't mean there isn't teaching going on. 

 

There doesn't have to be a classroom setting at all.  You are correct.  But, an instructor is someone that teaches.  A coach is someone that assists a rider in doing drills and practices and such to get better.  A control rider is simply someone that is an able body capable of running through a pack in case a situation occurs.

 

Yes, control riders will help coach riders at times.  You are correct.  If they see someone needing help and they assist, they then become an instructor or coach.  But at track days with control riders, they are there to make sure people are abiding by the rules.  In advanced NESBA, by the rules of getting in, you shouldn't really need any assistance like you would if you were an Intermediate rider...  But, as I have on numerous occasions, I have helped coach Advanced riders in getting better.  But, when I was running around in Advanced and when I do with Mid-Ohio, I am evaluating and taking notes to make sure riders who need help or bumped down, etc.  But, I am control riding - not coaching...

 

I think you are commenting and answering your own questions - you just don't see it yet.

[madcat6183]

I only have experience with MotoSeries, but I'd venture to guess that some instructors are more like control riders and some control riders are more like instructors.

Since there was a big discussion about A groups and I didn't see it mentioned, what are the requirements for MotoSeries A? Besides safety wiring? I don't think I've seen anything else on their site.

 

Really the main thing is that you need to be able to keep a safe pace with advanced/race riders.  Especially corners, and being ready for passes, inside, outside, maybe not "race" passes, but close passes, and be able to keep the speed and line needed to be safe.  They don't have a true requirement per se' but it's really something the rider needs to know 100% they are ready for, if not, they need to spend more time in Int. and continue to work on their skills. 

[2thDr]

Sorry I'm so late to the party

I was actually at this event on Sunday.  I ran A with Motoseries for almost the entire year last year.  My times were consistently in the 4-6's for a reference at the Beav.  As it has already been stated, I couldn't sign up for A with nesba, as I don't have an expert license.  I had asked the CR's in the morning for a bump and was not given it.  I put down a few 4's in I traffic and still nothing.  All the CR said to me was, keep doing what you are doing, and that my body position didn't look right. 

In the afternoon, I had a highside in turn 5,   probably over riding a bit to try and get a bump.  Not nesba's fault at all. Maybe I wouldn't have been pushing so much if I hadn't been trying to make myself known for a bump.  IDK.  I'm not sure where i'm going with this... I don't know if I'm bashing nesba, or supporting them.  Um Ok.  Carry on. 

[rubbersidedown]

For the record I'm a NESBA fan also.  It was a sad day for me when NESBA closed midwest operations. 

I've ridden with MS, MO and STT but from tech-in to leaving the track it seems to me that NESBA runs the smoothest TD's.  IMO the downside of NESBA is that I would not recommend them for a someone with no track experience and less the five years on a streetbike.   Their "beginner" group is completely different that any other orgs "novice" group. In NESBA after a classroom session and few warm-up laps ridders are free to run thier own pace unlike the other orgs and more like an "I" session.  Classroom sessions are conducted after each track session for the entire morning.  The upside to NESBA is that you stay in "B" group for more events and continue to get more CR attention and learn faster TD after TD after TD until you get the "I" bump.  I never got the "I" bump and I didn't care, never asked to be evaluated.  I was riding my ride at my speed and having fun.  Also, it is more fun passing than getting passed and I was able keep the action ahead of me instead of behind me.

 

When NESBA closed I looked into other orgs.  I even called the events coordinator to talk about where I fit in, not to stroke my ego but to be safe amongst others.  They always say "Try our "Novice" group.  Its about learning and you can get in a fast group due to your experience."  This was a wasted morning for me each time.  Yes, I was in the fastest novice group.  My point is that for bumps and recommedations ALL ORGS will fail conservative.  (I know what your thinking, you can't evaluate someone on the phone.  Well if someone says that they do 5 TD's  a year with NESBA it should be a strong indicator that novice is not the fit. If they don't understand the other TD orgs and structures shame on them for not understanding thier competition, market and competative advantage.)

 

More on Bumps and Groups:

Is it not common sense that people will like an org that you can pick where you run versus have to earn it?  I think that having this freedom to choose is in the fabric of our society and any company or TD org that does not allow the choice will be scoffed even if it is best for us.

 

It seems rediculous to me that we are aguing about the titles of a job, CR's vs coach vs instructors.  I have recieved more one-on-one attention from CR's both on track and of track than coaches and instructors combined.  There job titles are different but the job is the same, keep everyone safe, help us riders to learn and help the event run smoothly.

 

Last here is my take on rider ability breakdown for the different orgs. So yes you can be different in different orgs. I am a NESBA "B" and "I" everywhere else.

NESBA

B group - Lower 50%+/- in ability 

I group - Middle 25%+/- in ability 

A group - Upper 25%+/- in ability 

 

MO, MS, STT

N group - Lower 20%+/- in ability 

I group - Middle 50%+/- in ability 

A group - Upper 30%+/- in ability 

 

Sorry to hear about you highside 2thdr.  Hope your OK.

[MidgetTodd]

Really the main thing is that you need to be able to keep a safe pace with advanced/race riders.  Especially corners, and being ready for passes, inside, outside, maybe not "race" passes, but close passes, and be able to keep the speed and line needed to be safe.  They don't have a true requirement per se' but it's really something the rider needs to know 100% they are ready for, if not, they need to spend more time in Int. and continue to work on their skills.

To me, a consistent line is more important than pace. I like being in a group that I know will hold their line. If I know they'll hold the line then pace is less important because I know I can make a safe pass without spooking the other rider into standing it up or having them drift into me. I see plenty of guys that are crazy fast but can't hold a line for shit. I don't feel as comfortable passing that guy or being passed by that guy.

Just my 2 pennies, your mileage may vary.

[jbot]

apple is better, you faggots