$#%& this world!

[Angrish]

I have to say that I agree with Nick. As a Christian minister I believe that homosexuality is a sin, regardless of sex. It is clearly identified as an abomination before God in many places in the Holy Bible.

Now before you all flame me. I do not go out of my way to make gay and lesbians feel bad about themselves. It is not for me to judge them......."judge not lest ye be judged".

I do however feel that your sexual preference is none of my business. It is definitely none of the governments business. No laws should be made protecting anyones sexual preference. There are no laws on the books making it illegal to say anything about me being a heterosexual. A gay man can call me names all he wants and nothing would be done. Call him a "fag" or "queer" and you're in for a lawsuit.

Nick has a right to feel the way he does, just as you have a right to feel the way you do. He is right that the loosening of morals in today's society will be the downfall of this great nation. When it becomes acceptable to take away the rights of the majority for the sake of the few, the downward spiral is begun.

Tolerance is one thing. I tolerate homosexuals because not to do so would label me a hate monger and homo-phobe. Neither is the case, but watch it in the media. I'd be a monster in their eyes. Nick would be blasted as a replacement for Hitler in todays media. Is it true? Some of you on the forum now him personally. Is he a good guy or a tyrant?

It's easier to "go with the flow" on this issue. It's "in style" to be gay. I'm sorry to say that I will be hopelessly out of fashion if that's the case, I like women too much for that. I really don't think that a day will come when I can look at a hairy ass in a speedo and think to myself "Wow that looks good".

Homosexuals will have to answer for their ways on the day of judgment. Until that time, I will point them in the right direction without my personal feelings getting in the way. God gave us his laws. He gave us a blueprint for living a good and spiritual life. If we chose to disobey them, then it's on your own soul.

Oh, I forgot. Atheism is "in style" too, so I guess I'm preaching to myself....and Nick.

Nick, Don't worry about your dislike of homosexuals. You are not alone. God is a good ally.

-R

+1

[shittygsxr]

Wow so of you guys need to get out more, there are cultures that seek inner peace and focus all of their efforts on bettering themselves. They realize what is good for them may not be right for others. I have seen it first hand and it was really refreshing to see that the entire world is not fucked up. I support anything that brings us closer to that.

I for one dont get boners from man ass but if that is your thing then have at it.

[Moto-Brian]

It's epitome because epitomy isn't a word. Anyways, are you fucking kidding me? What are you lesbian yourself coach? Nobody is born gay you dumb ass! Wow, please just shut-up like you have been for months now. Oh, I choose to be an asshole, because it's idiots like you that have turned me that way. It's fucked up little warped minds like yours that created the ridiculous society I share with your retarded self.

Guy criticizes another guy's spelling yet his grammar is total shit. Hmmmm.... If we want to become spell check and grammar check police, you're not on the list of people who should be checking...

What I also like is the fact that Ninja is really showing his colors (Once again). I mean, his family probably hates the following people because they don't belong or have had the "world handed to them":

-Jewish people

-African Americans

-Polish people

-Women in terms of their rights to think freely, vote, etc.

-Mexicans (Here legally)

-Chinese people

The list gets pretty long.

Wonder if any Native Americans are on here so they can tell Ninja to get the hell out of their country because he doesn't belong here...?

I'm with Kawi on this. I'm not a supporter of their stances, but I also don't hate them for what they are. There are only a small % of those who stand out in crowds and make scenes, only a small % that do the big get togethers and do outlandish things to draw attention. There are PLENTY of those who are normal acting citizens who choose to have a relationship with someone of the same sex.

Nick probably can start a whole new thread of people in mixed ethnic relationships, people who cheat on their spouses, etc. Dude, you guys are real works of art. I suppose your religious background has you remembering how the Christians killed hundreds and hundreds of innocent people in the name of "religion"...

[Moto-Brian]

I have to say that I agree with Nick. As a Christian minister I believe that homosexuality is a sin, regardless of sex. It is clearly identified as an abomination before God in many places in the Holy Bible.

Now before you all flame me. I do not go out of my way to make gay and lesbians feel bad about themselves. It is not for me to judge them......."judge not lest ye be judged".

I do however feel that your sexual preference is none of my business. It is definitely none of the governments business. No laws should be made protecting anyones sexual preference. There are no laws on the books making it illegal to say anything about me being a heterosexual. A gay man can call me names all he wants and nothing would be done. Call him a "fag" or "queer" and you're in for a lawsuit.

Nick has a right to feel the way he does, just as you have a right to feel the way you do. He is right that the loosening of morals in today's society will be the downfall of this great nation. When it becomes acceptable to take away the rights of the majority for the sake of the few, the downward spiral is begun.

Tolerance is one thing. I tolerate homosexuals because not to do so would label me a hate monger and homo-phobe. Neither is the case, but watch it in the media. I'd be a monster in their eyes. Nick would be blasted as a replacement for Hitler in todays media. Is it true? Some of you on the forum now him personally. Is he a good guy or a tyrant?

It's easier to "go with the flow" on this issue. It's "in style" to be gay. I'm sorry to say that I will be hopelessly out of fashion if that's the case, I like women too much for that. I really don't think that a day will come when I can look at a hairy ass in a speedo and think to myself "Wow that looks good".

Homosexuals will have to answer for their ways on the day of judgment. Until that time, I will point them in the right direction without my personal feelings getting in the way. God gave us his laws. He gave us a blueprint for living a good and spiritual life. If we chose to disobey them, then it's on your own soul.

Oh, I forgot. Atheism is "in style" too, so I guess I'm preaching to myself....and Nick.

Nick, Don't worry about your dislike of homosexuals. You are not alone. God is a good ally.

-R

Maybe you can tell us how you all seem to avoid remembering what you all did "way back when" concerning the killings by the hands of Christians... Did God say it was Ok for you all to support such action back then? Just wondering. I'm a religious guy, too. I have my beliefs and they are based on what I know and what I have learned over the years. I have nothing against religions and their beliefs. In fact, I think each religion has their own beliefs yet are all somewhat based on similar things to show that each area of the world may have a different way to believe in what they do, but they are all similar enough to be legit.

I just find it funny when a minister starts in against gays and similar issues when they themselves are part of a religious group that seemingly found it fine to kill anyone who didn't follow in their beliefs.

I also think you are right that we all have the right to feel the way we do, but again, in a public forum, that is no way to act. It is ok for Nick to feel the gays and lesbians do NOT have the right to publicly state their claims and position yet it is ok for HIM to publicly state his feelings on the matter. I call that being a hypocrite... He can state what he wants when he wants, but to feel it is ok for himself to say anything and do anything in public because he is "normal" and yet those not following his beliefs have no right to do the same thing?

[Moto-Brian]

Let's turn this around since Nick and Holy Roller state they like women. Do you guys feel heterosexual pornography is fine and acceptable? Just answer that question and I'll go from there...

[fusion]

I have to say that I agree with Nick. As a Christian minister I believe that homosexuality is a sin, regardless of sex. It is clearly identified as an abomination before God in many places in the Holy Bible.

Now before you all flame me. I do not go out of my way to make gay and lesbians feel bad about themselves. It is not for me to judge them......."judge not lest ye be judged".

I do however feel that your sexual preference is none of my business. It is definitely none of the governments business. No laws should be made protecting anyones sexual preference. There are no laws on the books making it illegal to say anything about me being a heterosexual. A gay man can call me names all he wants and nothing would be done. Call him a "fag" or "queer" and you're in for a lawsuit.

Nick has a right to feel the way he does, just as you have a right to feel the way you do. He is right that the loosening of morals in today's society will be the downfall of this great nation. When it becomes acceptable to take away the rights of the majority for the sake of the few, the downward spiral is begun.

Tolerance is one thing. I tolerate homosexuals because not to do so would label me a hate monger and homo-phobe. Neither is the case, but watch it in the media. I'd be a monster in their eyes. Nick would be blasted as a replacement for Hitler in todays media. Is it true? Some of you on the forum now him personally. Is he a good guy or a tyrant?

It's easier to "go with the flow" on this issue. It's "in style" to be gay. I'm sorry to say that I will be hopelessly out of fashion if that's the case, I like women too much for that. I really don't think that a day will come when I can look at a hairy ass in a speedo and think to myself "Wow that looks good".

Homosexuals will have to answer for their ways on the day of judgment. Until that time, I will point them in the right direction without my personal feelings getting in the way. God gave us his laws. He gave us a blueprint for living a good and spiritual life. If we chose to disobey them, then it's on your own soul.

Oh, I forgot. Atheism is "in style" too, so I guess I'm preaching to myself....and Nick.

Nick, Don't worry about your dislike of homosexuals. You are not alone. God is a good ally.

-R

Just when I didn't think this could get any funnier.

[shittygsxr]

Maybe some of you guys could form a gang and go "fag bashing" in the short north, that will teach those queers not to be gay.

Then you could teach them about jesus christ

[r1crusher]

Very articulated reply VMX, +2. Do I approve of gays and lesbians, not really. Do I care if that is their lifestyle, nope. Is it something "natural", not really. Can they chose between a "straight" or "alternate" lifestyle, I believe so.

In the end, it's not even on my list of things to be concerned with. Gay or straight if you're a decent person we can be friends.

[shittygsxr]

Very articulated reply VMX, +2. Do I approve of gays and lesbians, not really. Do I care if that is their lifestyle, nope. Is it something "natural", not really. Can they chose between a "straight" or "alternate" lifestyle, I believe so.

In the end, it's not even on my list of things to be concerned with. Gay or straight if you're a decent person we can be friends.

When you can just choose to be gay or straight then I will believe that they can too.

Just spend ten minutes in the closet with flounder then I will be convinced that it is possible to choose gay or straight:lol:

That goes for any of you other fag haters just suck a dick then I will believe that it is a choice and that all gays could be straight if they wanted to.

[fusion]

Very articulated reply VMX, +2. Do I approve of gays and lesbians, not really. Do I care if that is their lifestyle, nope. Is it something "natural", not really. Can they chose between a "straight" or "alternate" lifestyle, I believe so.

In the end, it's not even on my list of things to be concerned with. Gay or straight if you're a decent person we can be friends.

I guess that means you chose to be straight.

I'm confused by your, "Is it something "natural", not really." statement. I'm not sure where people get this stuff. I'm imagining it more lies in that people ignore things they can't understand or don't like. "It" has been shown to be biologically natural and observed to occur in a number of various species outside of humans.

[zerocrash]

Maybe some of you guys could form a gang and go "fag bashing" in the short north, that will teach those queers not to be gay.

Then you could teach them about jesus christ

:lol:

[InyaAzz]

Exactly R1. In my experience, the people who go out of their way to attack gays/lesbians have issues themselves. Again, it is OK if you don't like it. No one is saying you have to like it, support it, or approve of it. But to condemn them and banish YOUR OWN FAMILY MEMBERS, especially in the name of religion is just being hypocritical. You are taking the parts of the Bible that serve your purpose and ignoring everything else. I could care less if you are gay..I will treat you with the same respect I would treat someone who is straight. It's all about how you carry yourself...you respect me, I'll respect you. I could care less if you are sleeping with a man. You're not going to turn me gay by standing next to you.

Are morals different than they were 30 years ago? Sure. Media has a lot to do with that. You can say stuff on the radio you couldn't say 5 years ago (I still don't know how they can get away with that). A lot of the music that was underground years ago is now main stream. Do you want to go kill someone when you here 50's latest joint on the radio?! No. Do you want to go stick your tongue down your uncle's throat when you see a gay couple on TV? No. Just because it's in front of your face and ears doesn't mean you act on it (I admit, it doesn't help). No one wakes up one day and decides they are gay. This is something that is in them since birth. They probably didn't act on it because of people like the ones on here who are trying to burn them at the stake. It doesn't mean they were 'straight' until they got enough courage to be 'gay', it means they were scared as shit to come out and acted straight to make everyone happy and not get their face bashed in at school. If you disagree, then you obviously haven't gotten out much or actually TALKED to someone in that situation.

I'm with Shitty...I can't believe we as a society are spending so much time on this. There are soooo many other issues to deal with. People should be concerned with improving themselves, rather than taking the time and energy to show other people how far from 'normal' they appear to be. WTF is 'normal'?!?! That is a relative term. What makes your 'normal' ..well..the norm?!?! Who put you in charge?? It's that same fucked up attitude that has muslims and christians killing people in the name of religion since the damn of organized religion. Matter of fact, the same Catholic church that looked the other way while altar boys were being molested (FOR YEARS!!!!), is the same church some of you hide behind.

Anyways..I'm going to see the Dalai Lama next week in Ann Arbor. I think I'm going to bring this topic up to him.

[VMX12C]

Maybe you can tell us how you all seem to avoid remembering what you all did "way back when" concerning the killings by the hands of Christians... Did God say it was Ok for you all to support such action back then? Just wondering. I'm a religious guy, too. I have my beliefs and they are based on what I know and what I have learned over the years. I have nothing against religions and their beliefs. In fact, I think each religion has their own beliefs yet are all somewhat based on similar things to show that each area of the world may have a different way to believe in what they do, but they are all similar enough to be legit.

I just find it funny when a minister starts in against gays and similar issues when they themselves are part of a religious group that seemingly found it fine to kill anyone who didn't follow in their beliefs.

I also think you are right that we all have the right to feel the way we do, but again, in a public forum, that is no way to act. It is ok for Nick to feel the gays and lesbians do NOT have the right to publicly state their claims and position yet it is ok for HIM to publicly state his feelings on the matter. I call that being a hypocrite... He can state what he wants when he wants, but to feel it is ok for himself to say anything and do anything in public because he is "normal" and yet those not following his beliefs have no right to do the same thing?

First off. I do not condone, nor have I ever condoned the killing of anyone who does not believe the way that I do. Those ancient Christians....or any of the religions for that matter, used religion as a political tool. They used peoples faith and destroyed lives. My God did not teach that. Jesus said that if someone strikes you on the cheek, give him the other to strike. He also said love your enemies. He was a very progressive man for his time. Yet, he didn't come out and say that God the Father was wrong about homosexuality. Any time religion is used as a political tool, it is wrong and no longer a religion. There are many of Middle Eastern decent living in the US that are Muslim. I don't hate them for the actions of those who have turned the Muslim faith into a political tool and attacked the innocents of 9/11. I hate those who turned it such.

I think that being called a hypocrite, when I clearly said that EACH person was entitled to their own view is a little uncalled for. If you actually read my post, you see that I said that Nick was entitled to his view point, just as others were. I didn't want to see Nick being bashed for believing what he did. I didn't call anyone out and tell them they didn't have the right to say just how gay they were. I never called homosexuals any names, other than to point out what would happen for doing so. Even then it wasn't an attack. I wasn't "breathing fire" against them. I didn't call for all gays and lesbians to be taken to a gas chamber. Nope, a simple re-direction so that ALL people would have a fair shot. You are one of the reasons that Christians have to hide their feelings. We are afraid of being sued by the liberal media for talking out against something that is clearly defined by our faith and principles.

You cannot say that you are a Christian and still be "okay" with people disobeying God's laws. I am daily reminded that dominion of this Earth was given to the dark one. I'm not "okay" with any of God's laws being broken, not just homosexuality. Your statements are a very good example of how much damage has actually been done to the moral fabric of society today.

To use your thought processes, since it's okay to be gay. Wouldn't it be okay to be a pedophile? Or how about dead people? I mean some people get off on that. Or even animals. That's okay too. Whatever is pleasurable must be okay. There's a severe breakdown of morals when those things happen. After all, this is a society that says I can't even smoke outside a public buildings entrance any more for fear of offending someone. But that's okay.

It's okay that you want to feel the way that you do. However, who is the hypocrite? You say that you're religious. That's fine. Atheism is a religion of denial. Gnostics are religious, without a God. Even L. Ron Hubbard started his own church of science.

Until you have taken Jesus as the way and the life, you don't know what you're talking about. Read the scriptures and understand just how they impact you today. The message is timeless and was written for you. You have the right to say what you want.....my forefathers fought and died for it (at least until liberals get freedom of speech removed from the Constitution). You have the right to deny God.....He gave us free will. You also have the right to salvation......Jesus was nailed to a cross for it.

I hope that you can open your eyes and see that my statements were not an attack on anyone. They were actually in defense of all. I will not, however, pick and choose amongst the commandments that God has given us. It's all or nothing. Break one, break all. Sin is very, very deadly. Not only will it harm your "living" world, but it will destroy your "after living" world as well.

I have stated my position. If you don't like it, that's okay. You are free to agree or disagree with me. Call me names. Call me a hate monger. Do what "feels" good to you. I will pray for you anyway. Jesus said while on the cross "Forgive them Father, for they know not what they do."

God Bless each of you and Ride Safe.

[r1crusher]

If it were "natural", then same sex couple would be able to procreate. That's what I meant by "natural". Show me a study where various species in the wild have interactions with the same sex and are capable of child rearing. You might pull some reptilians out but those aren't mammals. And do your studies show them to be 100% same sex partners? Probably not, they will most likely go between same and opposite sex partners.

I did choose, I like women. Simple enough.....no need to be in the closet with flat fish thank you. Maybe I don't understand, but I never intend to either. Like I said, if that's your choice so be it. I'm fine with it, but I don't hate someone for being gay or lesbian. I don't wish them harm or death. Go live your lives and be happy.

Man, I'm having to defend myself for NOT being a hater.

[fusion]

If it were "natural", then same sex couple would be able to procreate. That's what I meant by "natural". Show me a study where various species in the wild have interactions with the same sex and are capable of child rearing. You might pull some reptilians out but those aren't mammals. And do your studies show them to be 100% same sex partners? Probably not, they will most likely go between same and opposite sex partners.

I did choose, I like women. Simple enough.....no need to be in the closet with flat fish thank you. Maybe I don't understand, but I never intend to either. Like I said, if that's your choice so be it. I'm fine with it, but I don't hate someone for being gay or lesbian. I don't wish them harm or death. Go live your lives and be happy.

Man, I'm having to defend myself for NOT being a hater.

I don't think you're a hater at all lol. I'm just questioning a few statements.

For it to be 100% natural doesn't have to include child rearing. Using that mindset would lead to that it's not natural to have sex for anything other than child rearing.

As for 100% same sex partners, what you're using is a perfectionist fallacy, all or nothing sort of thing. Things just don't work like that. There are very few (if any at all) absolutes. Just because not every member of a species doesn't do it doesn't make it not natural. If that were the case most things humans (to include you and I both) do would be considered completely unnatural. Of course I'm pretty sure I've done some completely unnatural things in my years.

[zerocrash]

Exactly R1. In my experience, the people who go out of their way to attack gays/lesbians have issues themselves. Again, it is OK if you don't like it. No one is saying you have to like it, support it, or approve of it. But to condemn them and banish YOUR OWN FAMILY MEMBERS, especially in the name of religion is just being hypocritical. You are taking the parts of the Bible that serve your purpose and ignoring everything else. I could care less if you are gay..I will treat you with the same respect I would treat someone who is straight. It's all about how you carry yourself...you respect me, I'll respect you. I could care less if you are sleeping with a man. You're not going to turn me gay by standing next to you.

Are morals different than they were 30 years ago? Sure. Media has a lot to do with that. You can say stuff on the radio you couldn't say 5 years ago (I still don't know how they can get away with that). A lot of the music that was underground years ago is now main stream. Do you want to go kill someone when you here 50's latest joint on the radio?! No. Do you want to go stick your tongue down your uncle's throat when you see a gay couple on TV? No. Just because it's in front of your face and ears doesn't mean you act on it (I admit, it doesn't help). No one wakes up one day and decides they are gay. This is something that is in them since birth. They probably didn't act on it because of people like the ones on here who are trying to burn them at the stake. It doesn't mean they were 'straight' until they got enough courage to be 'gay', it means they were scared as shit to come out and acted straight to make everyone happy and not get their face bashed in at school. If you disagree, then you obviously haven't gotten out much or actually TALKED to someone in that situation.

I'm with Shitty...I can't believe we as a society are spending so much time on this. There are soooo many other issues to deal with. People should be concerned with improving themselves, rather than taking the time and energy to show other people how far from 'normal' they appear to be. WTF is 'normal'?!?! That is a relative term. What makes your 'normal' ..well..the norm?!?! Who put you in charge?? It's that same fucked up attitude that has muslims and christians killing people in the name of religion since the damn of organized religion. Matter of fact, the same Catholic church that looked the other way while altar boys were being molested (FOR YEARS!!!!), is the same church some of you hide behind.

Anyways..I'm going to see the Dalai Lama next week in Ann Arbor. I think I'm going to bring this topic up to him.

Extremely well said. I couldn't agree more

[NinjaNick]

I'm glad some others on the other side decided to post up. I'm getting cruicified here. I talk to a lesbian here at work frequently and I like her a lot. She's very nice. She KNOWS I don't support Gays.

If any of you guys met me last weekend, you would know that I'm a chill, individual who loves a good laugh and to have fun. I'm just stating my opinion on the matter and you guys FLIP on me! I'm ashamed by your beliefs, yes, but that doesn't mean I hate you or anything. I feel that some of you HATE me and yet you don't even know me. That is as bad as gay bashing. How you going to HATE me when you don't even know me?

I gotta bail now though, I'll check back later.

[Chrisoh]

Very articulated reply VMX, +2. Do I approve of gays and lesbians, not really. Do I care if that is their lifestyle, nope. Is it something "natural", not really. Can they chose between a "straight" or "alternate" lifestyle, I believe so.

In the end, it's not even on my list of things to be concerned with. Gay or straight if you're a decent person we can be friends.

That is the issue. According to Nick's example even if a member of your own family is Gay/Lesbian that gives you the rite to treat someone

my aunt and others told her that we don't appreciate her type here and she should leave

How do peoples who feel this about their own family treat others who they do no know? (just a guess on all people with this feeling not one person)

And to VMX12C I get your resonse, yes people have a right to their beliefs on both sides. There is no problem with a person not liking one set of people, but when that person takes action to act out that belief is where the problem lies IMO. Now by action I don't just mean physical action, it could be verbal, economical, or political. I am leaving Religion out only because there are so many forms and those beliefs too are a person's business.

I guess my take on religion would be, it may not be accepted, but a lot of religions seem to lean to kindness to human kind.. So to take action against them for any reason and method is not showing kindness to Human kind, on the contrary it would mean that they are not Human..

[InyaAzz]

I'm glad some others on the other side decided to post up. I'm getting cruicified here. I talk to a lesbian here at work frequently and I like her a lot. She's very nice. She KNOWS I don't support Gays.

If any of you guys met me last weekend, you would know that I'm a chill, individual who loves a good laugh and to have fun. I'm just stating my opinion on the matter and you guys FLIP on me! I'm ashamed by your beliefs, yes, but that doesn't mean I hate you or anything. I feel that some of you HATE me and yet you don't even know me. That is as bad as gay bashing. How you going to HATE me when you don't even know me?

I gotta bail now though, I'll check back later.

We don't hate you!! I think some of us don't agree with how your family treated someone who should be close to you, JUST because they were gay. We're not saying you have to agree with it..or like it. We're saying (like the minister) it's all or nothing. Choosing to love a family member ONLY if they adhere to what you or your religion believes in, in my opinion, is wrong and hypocritical.

We are all entitled to our opinions. Just think about it.

[Disclaimer]

VMax, that was a well articulated post -- it appears you've put a lot of thought into your viewpoints, which is more than I can say for many people. I do have a couple of issues I'd like you to address further with your viewpoints.

Those ancient Christians....or any of the religions for that matter, used religion as a political tool. They used peoples faith and destroyed lives.

We apparently still have "ancient Christians" still living in society today, since I know many people that ONLY vote for candidates based on their religious views. What are your thoughts on our current Commander in Chief? Do you believe in a separation in church and state, and why or why not? Would you feel comfortable with someone in office that was not a professed Christian (be it Atheist, Agnostic, Jewish, Muslim...the religion of the Spaghetti monster)?

You cannot say that you are a Christian and still be "okay" with people disobeying God's laws.

This single statement is 90% of the reason people are turned off by religion (and 63% of statistics are made up on the spot) -- maybe not 90%, but I think for a vast majority, this statement reeks of hypocrisy. Given that no human is perfect, we sin and disobey God's laws all the time. Sometimes on a daily basis. This also depends on how literal you take the Bible, and if you interpret some parts, what parts do you interpret and why? Typically, people only interpret the parts that suit their lifestyle choices, which again, reeks of hypocrisy.

Since my knowledge on religions besides Christianity is rather shallow, I'll stick to Christianity for this point - which is "forgiveness". I find it completely wrong that you can be a horrible person your entire life, then ask for forgiveness on your deathbed and be granted heaven - again, hypocritical. I will guarantee you that although I consider myself agnostic, I live my life in a more conscientious manner than most professed "Christians". What are your thoughts on the merits and drawbacks of the concept of forgiveness in religion?

Your statements are a very good example of how much damage has actually been done to the moral fabric of society today....(at least until liberals get freedom of speech removed from the Constitution)...After all, this is a society that says I can't even smoke outside a public buildings entrance any more for fear of offending someone. But that's okay...

What is your idyllic version of society? Do you think we were better off back in the 1930s where we had the typical "nuclear family unit" and the father worked while the women were homemakers and child bearers? Do you think all the "progressive" things that happened since then have slowly torn away the moral fabric of society? Things like desegregation, civil rights, R-rated movies, Elvis, the Beatles, truth and transparency of government (though that's admittedly taken a HUGE step backwards lately). Where is the line between the downward spiral of morals and the progress and change for the betterment of society?

I assume you make that blanket statement about liberal attitudes because of their stereotyped stance of "intolerance of intolerance" and how you can't go around calling queers - queers - without it being a hate crime. But, I contend it's the conservatives that are destroying the Constitution http://www.cato.org/pubs/wtpapers/powersurge_healy_lynch.pdf.

Many of the 'religious right' feel the same about gays and lesbians as Nick and yourself. I think I'm in the boat where, as long as you don't expose me to it or try to 'convert me' I'm indifferent. I've got a lot of other stuff going on in my life, I don't have time to worry about what you do in the bedroom -- it doesn't affect me. In the same vein though, regarding tolerance, if the unspoken feeling is that neither of you should have to tolerate this moral depredation of society by the liberal media and gays and whatnot, why can't the reverse be true? Why do the gays have to tolerate your religious stance? Who are you to define the morals and values of society? And the answer is not "the Bible tells me so" because, while I agree that the Bible teaches MANY good lessons, I don't live my life based on one book with one singular viewpoint. Who's to say that Christianity is the "chosen" religion? What if none of the religions are the "chosen" ones?

Also, the smoking analogy is a bad one. Your right to smoke, should not impinge on my right to have fresh air. You CHOOSE to smoke, I don't CHOOSE to breathe. Just like your right to practice religion or be gay or whatever, is fine as long as it doesn't impinge on my rights - including the right to hate, but that's a pretty ignorant and counterproductive line of thought that won't make the world a better place, maybe a little less gay or a little less Jewish or a little less black, but not necessarily better.

A lot of your other points in your post speak to those ideas, I just didn't have the time to quote them all. But, we're having a good discussion here -- I want some of your feedback.

[InyaAzz]

One more comment and then I am going to go back to acting like I am working.

I am too lazy to go back and look, but the minister who said being OK with homosexuality is the same as being OK with a pedophile, or a necrophiliac (spelling? I am not trying to look up the spelling of THAT word at work)...is he for real? I mean, I understand what you are TRYING to say, but come on. A pedophile is committing an act against an innocent child..he's actively HARMING someone else. A necro is actively HARMING/DESECRATING a corpse (who, by the way, has no say in the matter. Having said that, if I'm dead and Halie Berry wants to mount me, please...let her be). Both of these acts are against parties who are either too young or too dead to know any better. Being in a gay relationship is a mutual, consentual arrangement. If you think they are both going to Hell, so be it. You are entitled to that opinion. But trying to compare someone committing a crime against a child or a corpse, to a homosexual is just ignorant. He isn't FORCING his homosexuality on YOU or anyone else!!

Unreal.

[Moto-Brian]

First off. I do not condone, nor have I ever condoned the killing of anyone who does not believe the way that I do. Those ancient Christians....or any of the religions for that matter, used religion as a political tool. They used peoples faith and destroyed lives. My God did not teach that. Jesus said that if someone strikes you on the cheek, give him the other to strike. He also said love your enemies. He was a very progressive man for his time. Yet, he didn't come out and say that God the Father was wrong about homosexuality. Any time religion is used as a political tool, it is wrong and no longer a religion. There are many of Middle Eastern decent living in the US that are Muslim. I don't hate them for the actions of those who have turned the Muslim faith into a political tool and attacked the innocents of 9/11. I hate those who turned it such.

Yet you share the same beliefs that they did and what they used in a platform to justify the killing of innocent people. Think about this. Christians were killing people who essentially didn't conform to their way of life. MANY Jews and a TON of Muslims were killed in the name of Christianity. Murdered, actually... That's ok to brush aside or under the rug and you try and not talk about that part of history yet it is ok to refer back to history that suits your needs in an argument. Talking about God and Jesus is OK to refer back to - only the parts of Christianity that is good, right?

I think that being called a hypocrite, when I clearly said that EACH person was entitled to their own view is a little uncalled for. If you actually read my post, you see that I said that Nick was entitled to his view point, just as others were. I didn't want to see Nick being bashed for believing what he did. I didn't call anyone out and tell them they didn't have the right to say just how gay they were. I never called homosexuals any names, other than to point out what would happen for doing so. Even then it wasn't an attack. I wasn't "breathing fire" against them. I didn't call for all gays and lesbians to be taken to a gas chamber. Nope, a simple re-direction so that ALL people would have a fair shot. You are one of the reasons that Christians have to hide their feelings. We are afraid of being sued by the liberal media for talking out against something that is clearly defined by our faith and principles.

However, in this statement you state that you didn't want to see Nick bashed for what he believed and yet he is bashing what others believe is somewhat hypocritical, no? Also, saying that gays and lesbians are going to be judged and condemned is pretty much be judgemental on your part - even if it is what your belief system supports...

You cannot say that you are a Christian and still be "okay" with people disobeying God's laws. I am daily reminded that dominion of this Earth was given to the dark one. I'm not "okay" with any of God's laws being broken, not just homosexuality. Your statements are a very good example of how much damage has actually been done to the moral fabric of society today.

I never said I was a Christian. You are saying you are a Christian... You are judgemental towards my statements and saying that my thoughts are why our society is what it is. Why is it that in YOUR views and under YOUR beliefs that society is damaged? Could it be that your beliefs and feelings are damaged? Is it possible that today we are a smarter and more open society and therefore more caring and more open to helping people as opposed to the ways it was a long time ago. Problem with Christianity is that it is an old world type of system. It hasn't really done a good job of keeping up with our society. You condemning or judging others that are NOT Christians is a symbol of such when especially the ones you judge are not doing it towards you...

To use your thought processes, since it's okay to be gay. Wouldn't it be okay to be a pedophile? Or how about dead people? I mean some people get off on that. Or even animals. That's okay too. Whatever is pleasurable must be okay. There's a severe breakdown of morals when those things happen. After all, this is a society that says I can't even smoke outside a public buildings entrance any more for fear of offending someone. But that's okay.

Again, using things to your side of the argument won't work here. Being gay isn't hurting or violating someone else. Pedophiles, doing things to others against their will, etc is not acceptable in ANY society for the most part. Being gay isn't hurting anyone. It doesn't hurt the other person in the relationship since it is what they wish to do. If I choose to be in a relationship with someone, it is because I enjoy them as a person, I have feelings for them in a positive way, and that I feel I can be with them for as long as I live. I am married to a wonderful woman and think we are perfect together. She feels the same way towards me and therefore, a good relationship. Now, how is that really any different between two same sex people? You think the idea of them being together is wrong. the bible can easily be directed and used to support that all of God's children are loved by him and that he wishes no harm to any of them. Yet, you say he will condemn them to hell if they do not change. I think that's a little opposite of loving them, no? I know, I know... tough love, right?

It's okay that you want to feel the way that you do. However, who is the hypocrite? You say that you're religious. That's fine. Atheism is a religion of denial. Gnostics are religious, without a God. Even L. Ron Hubbard started his own church of science.

Again, your opinions based on your beliefs. You saying a religion is a religion of denial, that a religion cannot be a religion w/o a single God like your own (which you have never seen nor have any images of what he would appear to be like) is wrong, that any new religions are obviously not legit as they are not as long lasting as your own is wrong. Are you not again being judgemental of others?

Think about this: Is Jewish better or worse than being a Catholic? they don't see eye to eye on beliefs (Jesus for example) so, are they a real religion? Or, is being a Catholic not really being a religion? What, because they are such old religions do we consider them valid? Is it not because people who started this country have dictated what beliefs should be? If so, Judaism is older than Christianity so, it should be regarded as best, right?

Have we considered the Native American way of beliefs? They don't believe in Jesus, they do ceremonious type get togethers and believe in spirits and how they cleanse the body, how they guide their day to day lives, etc. They don't (or, didn't) believe in one god where Judaism, Islam and Christianity are based on a monotheistic (sp?) point of view.

Until you have taken Jesus as the way and the life, you don't know what you're talking about. Read the scriptures and understand just how they impact you today. The message is timeless and was written for you. You have the right to say what you want.....my forefathers fought and died for it (at least until liberals get freedom of speech removed from the Constitution). You have the right to deny God.....He gave us free will. You also have the right to salvation......Jesus was nailed to a cross for it.

My beliefs are that I am not convinced about Jesus. I'm almost like the Jews in that I think Jesus was a prophet and not the son of God. I believe there is a single God up there pushing buttons and directing traffic and I think that relgions as seen in other countries that even though they are not Christian based, they have one God that reigns supreme and they believe he is the top ranked guy. How is that really different than Catholics, Jews, Lutherns, etc??? They all have one God they see as supreme. What, our way or the highway???

I have stated my position. If you don't like it, that's okay. You are free to agree or disagree with me. Call me names. Call me a hate monger. Do what "feels" good to you. I will pray for you anyway.

Not sure where anyone was calling names out here. I mean, Nick sorta has had the ball on that aspect, but overall, all we are doing is showing that in today's society, hating someone for their way of life is stupid. I don't hate you or even Nick. i think you are sorta stuck in a belief system that clouds your mind to a degree and that Nick is simply a hater that was brought up in a way that was supported and promoted by his family's religious beliefs. Or, he at least uses that as a crutch to defend his stance...

But, after all this, your final comment is why religion becomes hypocritical. If Jesus was the son of God and he stated the following, how can someone be condemned to hell and be damned if they are forgiven?

Jesus said while on the cross "Forgive them Father, for they know not what they do."

[Disclaimer]

I need to quit posting in the same threads as Lizard from now on... save the double posting.

[fusion]

I need to quit posting in the same threads as Lizard from now on... save the double posting.

Hahahaha I've resisted replying with longer posts to wait and see if he is going to post in threads like this.

[Chrisoh]

He is famous on several boards for his War and Peace posts....

But I have to say after reading JRMMiii's post I couldn't finish all of Lizards.. I was too tired..