Government Shutdown

[r1crusher]

There will be no SS left when I get to retire so to me SS is a bust, IMO.  And if there is any left it won't be anything near what's needed to maintain a comfortable life when the economy is in ruins.

[magley64]

There will be no SS left when I get to retire so to me SS is a bust, IMO.  And if there is any left it won't be anything near what's needed to maintain a comfortable life when the economy is in ruins.

 

What makes you think the economy will be in ruins? It's growing

 

http://www.tradingeconomics.com/united-states/gdp-growth

[CleaveTheGreat]

Without Obamacare, what is to stop insurance companies from refusing coverage for people with pre-existing conditions?

 

"Affordable" is a relative term, "denied coverage" is not.

 

Without Obamacare, what is to stop insurance companies from capping coverage to people who have an illness?

 

Again, "affordable" is relative, but "dropped from coverage" is not.

 

The individual mandate (which I hate as much as you do, by the way) was the trade off, the give back to the insurance companies who otherwise would have no recourse, or compensation for these new liabilities they were being forced to adopt. People could just go without coverage, wait until they got sick, or injured, then buy insurance that day to pay for it. It is an attempt to limit people gaming the new system.

 

What part of Obamacare (other than the individual mandate) are you so dead set against?

 

The individual mandate, the onerous requirements for small businesses that dramatically increase their costs, the fact that premiums will be increasing for young, healthy people who have insurance through their employers, the haphazard and unorganized implementation of multiple health care "exchanges" (which vary from state to state), the ridiculous tax on medical devices that will hurt American businesses...shall I continue?

 

I hate insurances companies and agree that they will do shady things if left unchecked. However, anyone who objectively looks at the ACA can see that it is counterproductive and will be ineffective.

[Bad324]

One thing I've never understood is the government is great at creating too many mandates, laws and bullshit when it comes to many different sectors of business that don't negatively effect the American people very much. Yet they decide they have to fuck a majority of Americans in the ass when it comes to Healthcare instead of doing the same to the healthcare industry and just leave the people the hell alone. I know this is a way too simplistic viewpoint and probably has 300 holes that people with more time than me care to dissect but the point remains the same

[magley64]

The individual mandate, The onerous requirements for small businesses that dramatically increase their costs, the fact that premiums will be increasing for young, healthy people who have insurance through their employers, the haphazard and unorganized implementation of multiple health care "exchanges" (which vary from state to state), the ridiculous tax on medical devices that will hurt American businesses...shall I continue?

 

I hate insurances companies and agree that they will do shady things if left unchecked. However, anyone who objectively looks at the ACA can see that it is counterproductive and will be ineffective.

I said, aside from the individual mandate... so let's begin...

 

"The onerous requirements for small businesses that dramatically increase their costs"

 

Please elaborate what requirements exactly?

You mean the ones that require they offer health insurance to their full time staff or pay a penalty? The requirement that the portion of the plan that the employee pays for not exceed 11% of their gross income?

 

"The fact that premiums will be increasing for young, healthy people who have insurance through their employers"

This is not the fault of the law, it's the insurance companies scrambling to make their bottom line fatter to absorb the new costs. The law doesn't require them to raise your rates, in fact it limits how much they can raise your rates based on how much they actually spend on medical care.

 

"The haphazard and unorganized implementation of multiple health care "exchanges" (which vary from state to state)"

This is a "free market solution" proposed by the conservatives, in an effort to get more competition into the health care market. (Also a good idea IMO if you aren't going with a single payer system)

 

"the ridiculous tax on medical devices"

2.3% is less than 1/3 of sales tax in most states... real outrageous

 

please continue.

Edited October 2, 2013 by magley64

[CleaveTheGreat]

Who's talking about Libertarians?  There are PLENTY of hard-line Repubs who read Rand so many times that they're making slashfic out of the main characters.

 

For every piece of evidence (and the plural of anecdote is not data) you bring to the table that premiums are being raise "drastically", I can show you similar data that there are MILLIONS of people that were previously not able to afford healthcare and since they have access to affordable coverage they will hopefully start buying it and reducing the costs for us all with lessened ER visits.

 

Look, I'll save us both some hand-wringing here.  It's a law, it passed Constitutional scrutiny, and it's done.  Yes, it has some parts that are less than ideal (the individual mandate), but it's a damn sight better than what we had.  Republicans had all the time in the world to negotiate and argue about it when it was going through Congress, and instead they all decided that if they just sat on their hands and did nothing, then the bill wouldn't pass.  Well, it did.  How about you give it a year after it's fully implemented and then we'll see what happens?  The same fervent teeth-gnashing happened with the New Deal and Social Security, and I'm willing to bet that a SIGNIFICANT percentage of people that are decrying this LAW are collecting some sort of SS/Medicare benefit, and would probably shoot you in the face with the Garand they kept from the War if you tried to take it away from them.

 

Rand is generally more closely associated with Libertarians than republicans. That's why I figured it was a jab at Libertarians. 

 

How long does it take for the rest of us to realize the savings that we're supposed to see from these lesser ER visits? And what mandates healthcare providers and insurers to pass these savings on to the consumer? I'll believe that when I see it.

 

Again, I think that healthcare should be affordable for all people. However, making it affordable for some by increasing costs on those who already have it through our employers? That is bullshit and it is the very definition of socialism. I'm not really one to scream about Obama being an EVIL MOOSLIM SOCIALIST USURPER OMFGGG!!!!!!!! But that's what this law is. Period. 

 

The debate over SS/Medicare is something I don't even want to get into. I hate paying for something that won't be there when I retire. Baby boomers who didn't plan accordingly for their retirement get to live on my dime. Bullshit.

[Pokey]

I like these 2 examples, and THIS is what the US needs to ultimately go to. Yes our system is corrupt as hell, and the insurance companies are STILL going to be making out like fat cats. So true that health insurance is not healthcare, I am hoping that this cluster will eventually morph into single payer healthcare system.

 

http://my.firedoglake.com/jpsottile/2013/01/13/health-insurance-is-not-healthcare/

 

 

http://voices.yahoo.com/health-care-not-health-insurance-3735522.html?cat=5

[CleaveTheGreat]

I said, aside from the individual mandate... so let's begin...

"The onerous requirements for small businesses that dramatically increase their costs"

Please elaborate what requirements exactly?

You mean the ones that require they offer health insurance to their full time staff or pay a penalty? The requirement that the portion of the plan that the employee pays for not exceed 11% of their gross income?

Yes that requirement for small businesses. It leads to them slashing full time workers and hiring more part time staff. Not helpful to the economy or the people who will no longer have a full time job. Small business owners should get shit on because they decided to start a business? They are people with families to feed just like their employees.

"The fact that premiums will be increasing for young, healthy people who have insurance through their employers"

This is not the fault of the law, it's the insurance companies scrambling to make their bottom line fatter to absorb the new costs. The law doesn't require them to raise your rates, in fact it limits how much they can raise your rates based on how much they actually spend on medical care.

Insurance companies are greedy assholes. I won't argue with that. But rates would not be increasing this much if the ACA wasn't enacted. This is completely passing the buck by Obama and Congress: "We passed a law that will cost insurers more money. They're going to pass these costs on to you. They are evil and it's not our fault!"

"The haphazard and unorganized implementation of multiple health care "exchanges" (which vary from state to state)"

This is a "free market solution" proposed by the conservatives, in an effort to get more competition into the health care market. (Also a good idea IMO if you aren't going with a single payer system)

It's still haphazard, unorganized and confusing for many people. Not surprising since it is run by the government. Just because Conservative morons call it a "free market solution" doesn't make it one. The exchanges are still run by the government. Nothing free market about that.

"the ridiculous tax on medical devices"

2.3% is less than 1/3 of sales tax in most states... real outrageous

So increasing the sales tax by 33% on 1 specific group of businesses is reasonable? You are a moron.

please continue.

No thanks. I'm all out of troll food.

Edited October 2, 2013 by CleaveTheGreat

[Cheech]

The individual mandate, the onerous requirements for small businesses that dramatically increase their costs, the fact that premiums will be increasing for young, healthy people who have insurance through their employers, the haphazard and unorganized implementation of multiple health care "exchanges" (which vary from state to state), the ridiculous tax on medical devices that will hurt American businesses...shall I continue?

 

I hate insurances companies and agree that they will do shady things if left unchecked. However, anyone who objectively looks at the ACA can see that it is counterproductive and will be ineffective.

 

Rand is generally more closely associated with Libertarians than republicans. That's why I figured it was a jab at Libertarians. 

 

How long does it take for the rest of us to realize the savings that we're supposed to see from these lesser ER visits? And what mandates healthcare providers and insurers to pass these savings on to the consumer? I'll believe that when I see it.

 

Again, I think that healthcare should be affordable for all people. However, making it affordable for some by increasing costs on those who already have it through our employers? That is bullshit and it is the very definition of socialism. I'm not really one to scream about Obama being an EVIL MOOSLIM SOCIALIST USURPER OMFGGG!!!!!!!! But that's what this law is. Period. 

 

The debate over SS/Medicare is something I don't even want to get into. I hate paying for something that won't be there when I retire. Baby boomers who didn't plan accordingly for their retirement get to live on my dime. Bullshit.

 

so·cial·ism

 noun \ˈsō-shə-ˌli-zəm\

: a way of organizing a society in which major industries are owned and controlled by the government rather than by individual people and companies

 

Last time I looked, the Exchanges were either private (as in, not owned or controlled by the government) or Medicaid/CHIP (which is a previously established program with LONG "socialist" roots that no one seems to have a problem with)

 

Either way, can you show me the legal statute that says it's illegal to pass a "socialist" law, and also their legal definition (or established case law) of what being "socalist" entails?

 

I said it before and I'll say it again.  You want a completely free, unregulated market?  Move to China.  You want a free, unregulated market AND a government that's pint-size, without any unnecessary spending or entitlements?  Move to Somalia.

[CleaveTheGreat]

so·cial·ism

 noun \ˈsō-shə-ˌli-zəm\

: a way of organizing a society in which major industries are owned and controlled by the government rather than by individual people and companies

 

Last time I looked, the Exchanges were either private (as in, not owned or controlled by the government) or Medicaid/CHIP (which is a previously established program with LONG "socialist" roots that no one seems to have a problem with)

 

Either way, can you show me the legal statute that says it's illegal to pass a "socialist" law, and also their legal definition (or established case law) of what being "socalist" entails?

 

I said it before and I'll say it again.  You want a completely free, unregulated market?  Move to China.  You want a free, unregulated market AND a government that's pint-size, without any unnecessary spending or entitlements?  Move to Somalia.

 

 

From healthcare.gov:  "the Marketplace is run by either your state or the federal government" (https://www.healthcare.gov/what-is-the-health-insurance-marketplace/)

 

Medicare/medicaid do have "socialist" roots. And I do have a problem with them. Read my post.

 

I didn't say it was illegal to pass a "socialist" law. I said it's bullshit. By my definition, a "socialist" law is one where the government takes control of something that was previously private and coerces you into purchasing something. If you disagree with my definition, good for you.

 

I never elaborated on what type of government I wanted or what I thought their role in the market should be. So don't post things assuming you know what I want. 

[magley64]

I like these 2 examples, and THIS is what the US needs to ultimately go to. Yes our system is corrupt as hell, and the insurance companies are STILL going to be making out like fat cats. So true that health insurance is not healthcare, I am hoping that this cluster will eventually morph into single payer healthcare system.

 

http://my.firedoglake.com/jpsottile/2013/01/13/health-insurance-is-not-healthcare/

 

 

http://voices.yahoo.com/health-care-not-health-insurance-3735522.html?cat=5

 

 

No no no, that's "socialism"... we can't have a good health care system like Canada does

[magley64]

Yes that requirement for small businesses. It leads to them slashing full time workers and hiring more part time staff. Not helpful to the economy or the people who will no longer have a full time job. Small business owners should get shit on because they decided to start a business? They are people with families to feed just like their employees.

 

That's what shady, greedy, and unreasonable small business owners will do to circumvent the law, sure... but now they pay a penalty for that kind of unscrupulous business practice.

 

reasonable business owners will offer their employees the coverage they need.

[magley64]

From healthcare.gov:  "the Marketplace is run by either your state or the federal government" (https://www.healthcare.gov/what-is-the-health-insurance-marketplace/)

 

So are the roads, and the skies. Just because the government controls the path doesn't mean they have taken over the industry.

 

By that logic: All of those socialist trucking companies keep using public roads to transport their goods.

 

Fact is, that it's just a regulation of the health insurance industry.

Until now they could raise your rates and drop your coverage indiscriminately, now their hands are being tied, and they are not happy about it.

[CleaveTheGreat]

Nothing you just posted is even worth responding to.

[Bad324]

That's what shady, greedy, and unreasonable small business owners will do to circumvent the law, sure... but now they pay a penalty for that kind of unscrupulous business practice.

 

reasonable business owners will offer their employees the coverage they need.

 

 

we're none of those adjectives and its exactly what we're doing to survive. The worst part is that our current healthcare plan is so awesome and we're keeping it at our expense for as long as we can and it will be subject to the Cadillac Tax so that seems quite flawed to me

[magley64]

Nothing you just posted is even worth responding to.

 

Then why did you respond?

[magley64]

we're none of those adjectives and its exactly what we're doing to survive. The worst part is that our current healthcare plan is so awesome and we're keeping it at our expense for as long as we can and it will be subject to the Cadillac Tax so that seems quite flawed to me

 

Which is it?

 

Slashing everyone to part time to avoid the requirement to offer them insurance, or offering them an awesome insurance at your cost?

Edited October 2, 2013 by magley64

[Bad324]

not slashing everyone but a good amount of people as well as keeping our usual plan and still gonna get nailed with a shit ton of extra cost

Edited October 2, 2013 by Bad324

[magley64]

not slashing everyone but a good amount of people as well as keeping our usual plan and still gonna get nailed with a shit ton of extra cost

 

So the people you've slashed, do they get offered the cadillac health insurance plan you get?

[Bad324]

So the people you've slashed, do they get offered the cadillac health insurance plan you get?

 

Technically no. Only full time employees will have it available to them and are already on it. The technicality comes into play that because they work for us but aren't on the company plan, they do have access to the plan at a discounted rate via the Insurance company itself

Edited October 2, 2013 by Bad324

[CleaveTheGreat]

Then why did you respond?

 

Good one 

[madcat6183]

I tried to follow this thread, but really I just liked all the yelling and bickering.  It's by far the most enjoyable part.  Jbot, when are the pizza bagels going to be ready?  I will bring the saltines so we can play limp bizkit after.  Okay?

[Casper]

[ScubaCinci]

 

 

[jbot]

if there isn't a movement to institute and make available a nuclear option for the voting public to simply fire the ENTIRE FUCKING LEGISLATIVE AND EXECUTIVE BRANCHES OF GOVERNMENT at ANY time, then I am starting one.  I will call it "The Great Reminder Act".  those fucking assholes serve US the pizza bagels, not the other way around.  Looks like they forgot.