God and Doctors

[Scruit]

On the thought processes of people who pray for healing...

 

So is the "god is healing him" thought based upon the belief that god puts everyone on this earth therefore he put the the doctors on this earth and gave them the ability to learn how to heal people therefore he is responsible for healing?  

 

Or is the "god is healing" a request "for the Lord to guide the hands of the doctors" (taken verbatim from a prayer).  Therefore the doctors are necessary to provide the direct physical manipulation, but it's really god controlling them in the moment?

 

Or is god healing him through a form of direct intervention that we simply can't hope to understand (much like in the middle ages we could not conceive of electricity), and the doctors are irrelevant to the healing process?  

Edited October 10, 2014 by Scruit

[Scruit]

Todd:  If god is really the one responsible for the healing that you "do" then I guess you'd better forward all of your paychecks to your nearest church.

[Tpoppa]

John 5:24 Very truly I tell you, whoever hears my word and believes him who sent me has eternal life and will not be judged but has crossed over from death to life.

They key here is whoever hears my word. It doesn't say what happens to those who have not heard the word of Jesus. But it certainly seems clear enough that if you don't hear about Jesus you are not automatically condemned to hell.

 

This is the opposite of what my church taught.  Only those that believe is Christ would be saved.  The rest...well sorry about your luck.  That seems to be the most accepted interpretation.  

 

I think the bigger point is that the Bible makes no account for the scenario of civilizations that wouldn't hear the word of Christ (American Indians, Chinese, Inca, Australian aborigines, etc, etc).  These cultures existed for thousands of years before Christianity ever reached them.  

 

The reason that the Bible doesn't account for that scenario is that Bronze Age man in Europe or the Middle East had no idea they existed.  Bronze Age men weren't explorers because the technology needed to travel great distances had not yet been developed.  Why would the "Word of God" be limited by the current understanding of man?        

[CBBaron]

I believe that although bodies heal themselves for the most part, doctors are sometimes needed to help when the body can't manage alone.  Praying does nothing.

The Placebo effect. Which actually I believe to more a matter of personal attitude. If a person believes that someone else praying for them is helpful and that person is telling them they are praying then there is a positive effect. A positive attitude can do much to help the healing process.

 

True many believers go over board on this. Most realize that doctors are needed or believe doctors are gods tools for the healing. You just have to smile and nod you head to those people at times like that for the good of the patient. The ones that believe drs and science are bad are the ones your have to prevent from affecting the treatment.

 

Craig 

[Scruit]

The Placebo effect. Which actually I believe to more a matter of personal attitude. If a person believes that someone else praying for them is helpful and that person is telling them they are praying then there is a positive effect. A positive attitude can do much to help the healing

Sure. I should've differentiated between praying for yourself, people praying for you (and you know it) and people praying for you (and you don't know it)

[Gixxus Christ!]

Studies have shown that the instances of terminal cancer being healed by faith or prayer are exactly the same as those that have gone into spontaneous remission.

It's a trick of the human mind to count the hits and ignore the misses. People believe what they want to believe and they will adjust their own perception of reality to fit into that belief structure.

It's when you show them things that challenge that belief structure, especially when it's solid evidence, that they suffer from cognitive dissonance and start to invent things to refute your evidence and support their beliefs.

None of this is healthy behavior.

[turnone]

In 2014 I struggle to understand why so many believe stupid shit.

So many people say they are a Christian but don't believe the items required to be one. They do it for many reasons some of which are to fit in, or not stray too far from those they love and care for.

As mentioned, religion is geographically based. That should be enough to tell you that believers or those likely to believe almost exclusively believe what they were told to believe.

Religions like to teach the young. Why?

Maybe because it's easier to convince a 4 year old that 2 of every animal in the world would not only fit on a wooden boat but survive. Tell that to a 40 year old person and see if they believe. Assumes they don't already believe.

No one is allowed to blame Dear Leader. So if your team wins. Thank god. You lose, blame yourself. Your kids die, not God's fault. Your kids do well, thank God.

God's plan involves killing a lot of undeserving people.

And finally (for this post) :

Who invented God?

[C-bus]

"Religion is the opiate of the masses."

[C-bus]

But really though.... If you listen to ancient alien theories, they make far more sense than either evolution or Mohamamosesjesuallahyeweh.

[Tpoppa]

Religions like to teach the young. Why?

Maybe because it's easier to convince a 4 year old that 2 of every animal in the world would not only fit on a wooden boat but survive. 

 

I happen to have a huge problem with this.  I don't think you should teach kids about religion until they are old enough to posses the critical thinking skills to process what they are being told. 

 

Religion is taught to kids like it's math.  They are told what to believe before they old enough to be able to form their own opinions.  That is FUCKING BULLSHIT.  I love my kids too much to try to prevent them from making their own informed decisions.

 

"Religion, generally speaking, has been a curse to mankind - that its modest and greatly overestimated services on the ethical side have been more than overcome by the damage it has done to clear and honest thinking." - Henry Louis Mencken (1880-1956)

[BadTrainDriver]

Or those priests with little boys.

Or the pastor passing on AIDS to members of the congregation they've had sex with.

Edited October 10, 2014 by BadTrainDriver

[zx3vfr]

Sons of Anarchy 2 episodes ago with the preist.  kinky kinky.

[blue-yamaR6s]

All interesting points of view.  What if our "view" of God is too small?  (I heard this already here, I think Steve said this.)  Maybe your viewpoint doesn't include God. What if there is way more to it all than just living on earth for a short period of time and enjoying all the benefits of this life? Since we obviously didn't create ourselves and cannot answer the fundamental questions of the universe except what we know through the Bible, religion, science and research and medical breakthroughs maybe this just heightens all our inner curiosities to know more.  Seems like we all have that inner space to satisfy.  I think we sometimes just don't know the whole story and we aren't meant to know it all.  We all speak from our own experiences and those around us.

 

I was raised Christian too.  I don't agree with some of the typical mainstream beliefs of Christianity.  Some of it is just "man centered."  I believe God created us and for a much bigger picture than most could admit or realize.  As far as healing and praying for healing, it is rare.  We know that.  If you believe in another life, it's temporary at best for this life.  If everyone was healed, we wouldn't need doctors or medicine.  Yes, science and Doctor's have figured out how to make the body react to medicines and how it can get the body to start a healing process.  I think the longer man lives on earth it will continue to figure out how the human body works and obviously medicine will get better.  History shows us that now.  What if life is also about the journey and how we go through it?  It's just interesting to think about this.  Everyone has to work through it for themselves.  It really is a personal thing.

 

As far as how God works everything out for everyone, that is for him to decide.  That is his job.  I think that is what we call "faith."  Our viewpoints change as we go through life depending on our circumstances.  How we are convinced seems to be "divine intervention" or however you define it.

 

It really is a great country to believe how we want, to worship how we want.  I won't berate anyone for their own beliefs.  I have learned that religion and politics no one will ever agree on.  We all have to work it out for ourselves.

 

Just my thoughts...but very good discussions here if you like to discuss.

[Gixxus Christ!]

But those Catholic girls....

Frank Zappa 1988 03 03 Catholic Girls: http://youtu.be/jmXYhpR9nCI

[turnone]

For those religious folks, prepare to watch religion change right before your eyes.  Despite that you believe that it's old and doesn't change, they do change as needed to stay relevant.

 

Next hurdle is gay marriage.  What used to be a major sin will likely become a minor sin or no sin at all.

 

How do you religious folks live with all the contradictions???

[zx3vfr]

For those religious folks, prepare to watch religion change right before your eyes. Despite that you believe that it's old and doesn't change, they do change as needed to stay relevant.

Next hurdle is gay marriage. What used to be a major sin will likely become a minor sin or no sin at all.

How do you religious folks live with all the contradictions???

I live with it by putting my political beliefs of everyone being equal above my religious views.

[Tpoppa]

Its strange that the rules set forth by a timeless supreme being would change based on pressure from current civil rights issues.

[Scruit]

Well the latest update on this guy is that he is suffering multiple organ failure in the ICU.  His wife blogged:  "Your prayers are working, keep praying!"

 

Seems to me that the prayers are not working at all if he is getting worse and worse.

 

I wish I could ask her for her criteria for determining the success or failure of prayers so far.  But I'm not going to ask.

[mattm]

Since John Clayton was mentioned in this thread, I though the following rebuttal might be important. It demonstrates the delusion of those afflicted with "faith" and education. It demonstrates the tortured logic employed but those who must see evidence of the divine where there is none.

http://www.holysmoke.org/cretins/marty0.htm

It is evident that John Clayton cannot be intellectually honest about his position. With his education he must grasp the ludicrous nature of his assertions but apparently the lure of easy money from those who do not share his erudition was too easy to bypass.

Sad for those who reference Clayton as they lack the cognitive capability to see the massive holes in Clayton's logic or lack thereof.

Edited October 15, 2014 by mattm

[YSR_Racer_99]

Since John Clayton was mentioned in this thread, I though the following rebuttal might be important. It demonstrates the delusion of those afflicted with "faith" and education. It demonstrates the tortured logic employed but those who must see evidence of the devine where there is none.

http://www.holysmoke.org/cretins/marty0.htm

It is evident that John Clayton cannot be intellectually honest about his position. With his education he must grasp the ludicrous nature of his assertions but apparently the lure of easy money from those who do not share his erudition was too easy to bypass.

Sad for those who reference Clayton as they lack the cognitive capability to see the massive holes in Clayton's logic or lack thereof.

John Clayton is far from wealthy.  He started his studies in order to disprove God, and after studying extensively came to the opposite conclusion of what he wanted.

To each their own.  My life is better as a believer.

God gives the doctors their abilities.

You have no idea of my cognitive capability.

 

Note:  I checked out the link after posting the above. 

Sounds like an angry atheist trying to draw a reaction.  He doesn't offer any proof of anything himself, yet slams Clayton repeatedly for not offering any proof of anything.  Typical liberal non-arguments:  "I can't prove my position, so I'm going to criticize yours and throw off the discussion".

Not impressed.  

Oh, and I love how he has to lay down all of his impressive credentials.  A scientist.  Again, I contend that science and religion are not mutually exclusive. 

Edited October 14, 2014 by YSR_Racer_99

[YSR_Racer_99]

>>How do you religious folks live with all the contradictions???<<

 

 

Personally, I don't nitpick the issues. 
Abortion?  I don't think its right, but I'm not going to stand in front of a clinic and scream at you. 

 

Homosexuality?  Same as above.

And most other issues.   Its between that person and God.

There are always contradictions and hypocrisy in life, whether it be in a church (general sense) or most other organizations.  Politics get in the way of churches as much as anywhere else.  People get power hungry, jaded, disgruntled.   A church is no different than any other organization.  It SHOULD be, but generally isn't.  Holding all Catholics accountable because of pedophile priests is just as wrong as viewing all "religious folks" as being identical automatons who are easily swayed.

If religion/ faith (different things) don't work for you, then so be it.  

 

As for me, I'm comfortable with my faith, beliefs, and foundation.  It wasn't a snap decision, and my outlook now (in my forties) is much different than it was in my twenties.  

Edited October 14, 2014 by YSR_Racer_99

[Gixxus Christ!]

Just gonna put this here for the lolz...

Street Fighter Pastor Edición Iglesia - Pastores …:

[Tpoppa]

I never understood why abortion was such a hot button issue for Christians.  I get that it's something unpleasant, but it's not like the bible spells is out as a sin or spells out when life begins.  Also, calling young, scared teens "baby killers" isn't very love thy neighbor.

 

Jumping on Turnone's post...homosexuality is pretty clearly spelled out as a sin in the bible.  The new pope is about 1000 times more forward thinking than any previous pope and his message isn't exactly in favor of homosexuality (despite how his quotes are twisted in the media).  His message is along lines of "love the sinner not the sin," or "let God judge not the church."  He is inclined to include many that others would not.  Being "anti gay" is an increasingingly unpopular sentiment today.   Watching the church shift their position to stay relavant seems extremely hypocritical to me.

 

I was raised that you need to believe the bible to be a Christian, all of it...not just the parts you happen to like.  I don't, so I'm not.

[Gixxus Christ!]

I've never heard of anything more useless than being anti gay.

Edited October 14, 2014 by CrazySkullCrusher

[Scruit]

Well, this isn't about whether you should believe or not - that's an entirely personal thing.

 

I'm trying to understand *how* prayer works.  If you pray for an unconscious person to get better, what is the mechanism by which change is effected?   Does god actively use his powers in response to prayer?  Or does your prayer impact the person directly?   How?