CAC with Valkyrie Defense Group - Full Review

[madcat6183]

Just in from the Counter Ambush Class with Brian and Jason and Valkrie Defense Group and I am going to try to get a decent start on a review down before I crash for the night.  I know Craig is going to join in and probably some other's, but here goes.

 

First thing we did was a class session, simply covering the more advanced "basics", things like guns, ammo, holsters, but then we took it further.  We discussed proximity to a threat, closing speed/distance, alternative deterrents, and everything under the sun.  What we did not cover are things you should truly already know taking a more advanced course.  Things like don't point a gun at someone, never look down a barrel to see if the gun is loaded, that kind of stuff that should have been covered in a GOOD CHL class.  If it wasn't, use common sense or take a basic class with Valkryie and start fresh.  I know the CHL class I took in 04 was awful, not because they didn't care, but it was super new to Ohio and we didn't do anything more than the very basic.  So a good base is something that is good to have for this class.  OR at least common sense/an IQ greater than 10.  

 

The class was about 90 minutes, nothing too long, and not boring at all because there was a ton of great knowledge being talked about.  Then we hit the range.  I really hope the boy scout reserve works out because the range is awesome.  Bench's and tables for you gear, a huge back stop, tons of space, and really quiet back there.  

 

I will not be divulging what was taught in the class exactly because this is a business and these concepts are part of ICE, so I will keep this very basic.

 

Let's start by saying you may or may not have bad habits, if you shoot a gun, you do, even if you don't think so.  For me, within the 1st magazine an assistant instructor had helped me with my grip a little, which was also reviewed at the end of the class.  At the same time, it wasn't like being picked on, or called out, it was fun, constructive criticism so even people who are soft will be fine.  We had 2 main instructors and 2 assistants, all 4 of them were very helpful, knowledgeable, and willing to go the extra mile.  Heck I was shooting my shield with 7/8 rd mags and one loaded my mags so I could shoot more.  May have been due to class size too, but super legit.   

 

We were able to shoot while adding new aspects and things to think about constantly, building blocks to consider and add together in the end.  It was non stop, adding something, practice, repeat, add something, practice, repeat, etc.  By the time the class was winding down, several of us actually saw how tired each other looked.  Not so much physically but mentally, really concentrating and putting it all together.  Using those building blocks to build our skill set to be the best concealed carrying citizen we can.  The skills we built on are all ones for real life, no crawling through the mud, no jumping over barb wire, these were thinking skills, analyzing, and engaging.  Not just shooting paper targets like at the range but using analetical thinking to decide which target to shoot, which way to move or adjust, reloading, everything.

 

A lot of what was covered are not things you can do at the indoor ranges locally, and the only way to get a chance is a class like this, then taking away the concepts and practicing.  I know Eric and myself already said we would be shooting together as much as we can so we can continue to build on these concepts, but we also plan to take more classes with Brian and Jason, and continue to grow our skill set.  

I have watched probably 100 videos on classes on youtube and read tons of websites but until you do it in real life it only helps so much.  And for what these guys charge and their location to all of us makes this a no brainer.  I do not see any reason someone who carries would not take this class if they can.  If not now, save for a month or two and plan to take it ASAP.  

 

I know i have more but I need to unwind a bit and debrief mentally.  I am sure more will chime in but for now that is it.  Awesome job by the instructors.

[blue03636]

I will say that Chris and myself were very pleased with the class. We both thought it might end up being an over the top tactical class with people in vests and shit. We have both shot idpa style at his place and tried to practice some sort of real life stuff, nothing even comes close to taking a class focused on this. It was very well ran with ample jokes to keep people from getting up tight. I mean Hell there was even a super trooper reference at my expense. Yes we all messed up a drill at some point, laughed about it and tried to fix it next time. The mental games were great to really mix things up. I faired ok, not to tired but I can definitely tell I had to think. My head feels about like when I had to take my fe exam.

 

One thing I will say is please take a firearm that you are familiar with. I put a new trigger in mine and hasn't shot it since, so I got the pleasure of figuring that out and learning drills. Also, make sure you load the firearm for the last drill so you don't unholster and hear a click. I offered to lay down and play dead. Bring extra mags, the site says 2 but 3-4 would be better especially if yours only holds 8-10 round. 

 

I will say that your life is worth the $100 for the class and you will be better prepared for life after. I can't wait until next spring/summer to take this again as I guarantee I missed or will forget information.

[C-bus]

These guys nailed it. I am far more prepared after taking this class and have been given the fundamentals on which to build with my own practice now.

[madcat6183]

I will say that Chris and myself were very pleased with the class. We both thought it might end up being an over the top tactical class with people in vests and shit. We have both shot idpa style at his place and tried to practice some sort of real life stuff, nothing even comes close to taking a class focused on this. It was very well ran with ample jokes to keep people from getting up tight. I mean Hell there was even a super trooper reference at my expense. Yes we all messed up a drill at some point, laughed about it and tried to fix it next time. The mental games were great to really mix things up. I faired ok, not to tired but I can definitely tell I had to think. My head feels about like when I had to take my fe exam.

 

One thing I will say is please take a firearm that you are familiar with. I put a new trigger in mine and hasn't shot it since, so I got the pleasure of figuring that out and learning drills. Also, make sure you load the firearm for the last drill so you don't unholster and hear a click. I offered to lay down and play dead. Bring extra mags, the site says 2 but 3-4 would be better especially if yours only holds 8-10 round. 

 

I will say that your life is worth the $100 for the class and you will be better prepared for life after. I can't wait until next spring/summer to take this again as I guarantee I missed or will forget information.

There is so much truth to this post that I forgot.  Mags, being a shield shooter I shot less than most others as my 2 mags held many less rounds, but Brian had a spare in his truck and let me borrow it to up my round count.  I had already planned more mags for Christmas but obviously not here yet.

 

Also as Craig stated, I was too nervous this might be a tad too tactial, it wasn't.  Every single thing was put into real life perspective, not zombie apocalypse shit.  But real life situations.  I'm not one to be over the top operator and prefer to keep a pretty low profile when carrying, this helped to work on that kind of manners not so much rocking a vest, ARs, shottys, and all that stuff on someones private land playing operator, but real life.  

 

I still and going over things in my head and every few minutes think about a situation or how things would go down now, vs. before this class.  Night and day.  I feel I would be much better prepared to defend both my wife, my child, and/or any innocent victim at this point.  Hopefully I will never have to, but stats are showing I will.

[C-bus]

I keep going over that last discussion about what happens after something happens.

[4DAIVI PAI2K5]

Glad ya'll had a good class. 

[4DAIVI PAI2K5]

So who got the pepper spray?

[blue03636]

My buddy Chris.

[jagr]

He didn't even move. Just took it like a champ.

[jagr]

I keep going over that last discussion about what happens after something happens.

I hope it helps put things in perspective. Our understanding of behaviors and Human psychology need to be "trained" just as any other skill and is just as important as anything we do on the range.

You need to plan on taking the Mag20 class with us next year. Life changing. All of you that are really serious about this lifestyle should.

http://massadayoobgroup.com/mag-20-classroom/

[Pokey]

I hope it helps put things in perspective. Our understanding of behaviors and Human psychology need to be "trained" just as any other skill and is just as important as anything we do on the range.

You need to plan on taking the Mag20 class with us next year. Life changing. All of you that are really serious about this lifestyle should.

http://massadayoobgroup.com/mag-20-classroom/

 

I know that he is very famous for his work, but I understand he has never been in live fire fights with enemy combatants. Not sure if that is true or not, but I find it a bit ironic if he in fact has not. That is not to say that what training and preparation he provides is any less effective, but real world experience in a live battle sure seems pretty important to me. Now in saying that.......I would love to take one of his courses.

[jagr]

The Mag20 isn't about how to take Fallujah it's about how to take on the aftermath of a shooting and much more. It's about understanding the criminal mind and predator/prey relationships.

Course description.

A two-day, 20-hour immersion course in rules of engagement for armed law-abiding private citizens, emphasizing legal issues, tactical issues, and aftermath management. Topics will include interacting with suspects, witnesses, responding police officers…threat recognition and mind-set…management of social and psychological aftermath after having had to use lethal force in defense of self or others…and preparing beforehand for legal repercussions and minimizing exposure to them. Situations in the home, at the place of business, or “on the street” will all be covered.

[jagr]

Podcast up with Massad Ayoob on the Armed Squirrel Project.

We were guests in this podcast twice. Enjoy.

http://www.armedsquirrelsproject.libsyn.com/rss

[kawi kid]

I know that he is very famous for his work, but I understand he has never been in live fire fights with enemy combatants. Not sure if that is true or not, but I find it a bit ironic if he in fact has not. That is not to say that what training and preparation he provides is any less effective, but real world experience in a live battle sure seems pretty important to me. Now in saying that.......I would love to take one of his courses.

Thinking someone has had to be in live fire fights to be able to appropriately teach is a huge misconception. Don't fall into that trap. I personally know an officer that instructs and has been in 3 gun fights. He had an extremely hard time teaching to ICE standards.

The misconception of needing to have been there and done that in order to be a great teacher or instructor really gets at me. Not just because I am a "civilian" instructor but because people dont think past the "been there dont that aspect". This goes for anything not just firearms, ask Kerri Strug who was coached to a gold medal in Olympic gymnastics by a boxing coach. Some people have a gift to teach and in all my experiences and training the list of top 3 instructors I have trained with have zero first hand gun fight experience.

Ask the gents above if they feel any of the knowledge that spewed out of my mouth over the weekend is any less valuable or holds any less weight knowing I never had to shoot at anyone. I won't even answer for them, I encourage them to chime in.

[madcat6183]

I'll chime in first;

 

Absolutely no loss in validity due to not "being in a gun fight".  I honestly believe the numbers would never allow for every ICE certified trainer, or any other certified training practice to have been in one.  There's always a chance they would not make it out, or they might never been "right" again or whatever.

 

 The knowledge the trainers who have put countless hours in, 92 I believe is what Brian said they had this year alone, is definitely much more valid then someone who has been in 1 gun fight, or drawn their gun once.  Who knows if they did everything right in that case or what the outcome could have been?  The training is based on real life use, not overly tactical and not too fluffy that it will never be used again.

 

I know having talked to Eric today at work he agrees completely that course like this should almost be a must IF we are continuing to require any classes at all for CHL's and the like.  There was much, much more useful knowledge in this class than my CHL class back in 04. 

[kawi kid]

If Ohio changes it requirements pertaining to the chl I hope people are responsible enough to seek out proper instruction. Just like Saturday, I think it was the first time anyone had ever thought about after the shoot. Training for violence is fun, it is flashy. I like to tell people that training for the events that lead up to violence and the events after violence are almost more important than the violence itself. We carry a gun to protect oue lives, we know the laws to protect our way of life.

[Pokey]

Thinking someone has had to be in live fire fights to be able to appropriately teach is a huge misconception. Don't fall into that trap. I personally know an officer that instructs and has been in 3 gun fights. He had an extremely hard time teaching to ICE standards.

The misconception of needing to have been there and done that in order to be a great teacher or instructor really gets at me. Not just because I am a "civilian" instructor but because people dont think past the "been there dont that aspect". This goes for anything not just firearms, ask Kerri Strug who was coached to a gold medal in Olympic gymnastics by a boxing coach. Some people have a gift to teach and in all my experiences and training the list of top 3 instructors I have trained with have zero first hand gun fight experience.

Ask the gents above if they feel any of the knowledge that spewed out of my mouth over the weekend is any less valuable or holds any less weight knowing I never had to shoot at anyone. I won't even answer for them, I encourage them to chime in.

 

Oh I agree with you 100%, and thank you for sharing your skills and expertise. I am basically going on what a few folks have said to me, who were SWAT and military. They believe you don't truly know what you will do or how your training will come into play unless you have been in fire fights. I want to be safe both inside and outside of my home, so I have no doubt what you teach would be "exactly" what I would be wanting and needing. Thanks again for doing what you do, I hope to join in someday.

 

And yes......leading up to and especially afterwards, is just as important if not more-so than the actual engagement.

Edited November 10, 2014 by Pokey

[kawi kid]

Sorry if I came of as a dick. It is something that is debated and discussed all the time throughout the training community.

Keep in mind also when learning from military and law enforcement they have a very specialized view on how they teach. Military have their spin and law enforcement have theirs as well. Armed citizens are very different than mil and Leo. Armed citizen walks through life waiting for the ambush moment. Leo and mil have missions to perform and most teach from those angles. Are there good ones who have learned to adapt to the difference? Absolutely. But we have had state patrol attend our CAC class and have said it relates totally to every situation he has been in.

I'm not trying to preach. I am just trying to offer that alternative way of thinking and a different view point because it is often drowned out by all the high speed stuff on the internet.

Edited November 10, 2014 by kawi kid

[madcat6183]

So my 2cents on the current discussion is as follows;  When it comes to training I have no issues with LE or ex-LE training me, same with military, BUT I would want the training to be much more geared towards real life scenarios as this is, not LE scenarios or Military experience.  Jason could have talked all day about his training and we had several other people who were ex/retired(what is the correct term?) military who could have too.  I believe Chris who was in the class was pretty experienced with military style training and shooting and he shoots a lot, like daily and is pretty good at it.  But I didn't want to hear about what a LE trains for, or how the military trains for close quarters combat with taliban all around them because I don't plan to go to war or try to stop rioting in Missouri.  I plan on using the training only to protect my family, friends, or innocent bystanders which is how this was instructed.

 

Again, nothing against other trainers or ways of training, but I can see where LE and Military scenarios will have nothing to do with my real life scenarios, and if they do, I probably put myself in a pretty bad situation and that was my fault, no one else.  Situational awareness is so big and I think too many people get complacent in their ways, something that is not good.  I know my wife is a situational awareness nut, always planning and looking for ways out of anywhere we are, and also keeping eyes on everyone. 

[blue03636]

I have been trained by a cop for my chl as Brian and I talked about saturday. Super great guy but he also wanted us to focus on bullseye shooting not just getting as many center mass shots as possible. I know I pissed him off a few times when I said I wouldn't be looking for super precision if shit hit the fan, just getting shots that land center mass. 

[scottb]

One aspect I liked about the class, it was not super basic. Brian  ( and Jason) has taken other training and took all knowledge and re-packaged it into real, hands on skills for everyday life. 

The topics discussed, with a group, it was more than just how to shoot, it is the other dynamics around a "threat"

 

The range drills of how to focus and shoot on the move helped me learn that while I and pretty good, standing static at the range, I have some areas to improve while moving. 

Still not sure my holster selection was the best for my firearm, but glad i had to chance to practice with it, until i can find something else that might work better, at least for me.

[C-bus]

I don't need a lawyer who's had a DUI to help me out of one. Teaching is a skill set that not all instructors possess. These guys were great!

[C-bus]

I have been trained by a cop for my chl as Brian and I talked about saturday. Super great guy but he also wanted us to focus on bullseye shooting not just getting as many center mass shots as possible. I know I pissed him off a few times when I said I wouldn't be looking for super precision if shit hit the fan, just getting shots that land center mass.

That was big for me this past weekend. I was really shocked at how many hits I was getting center mass without lining up the sights.

[kawi kid]

Intuitive shooting is still controversial in some circles. Are you still seeing the sights? Kinda. I still see the silhouette of them in the lower peripheral of my vision. Back to the primal instinct will your mind allow you to look at anything other than the sights? No. Should you be prepared to if the target dictates a need for precision? Absolutely.

[C-bus]

Intuitive shooting is still controversial in some circles. Are you still seeing the sights? Kinda. I still see the silhouette of them in the lower peripheral of my vision. Back to the primal instinct will your mind allow you to look at anything other than the sights? No. Should you be prepared to if the target dictates a need for precision? Absolutely.

I should elaborate.... I was using the front sight more than anything, just not closing one eye and aligning them perfectly like I would do at the typical range.