M855 Ban possible?

[owndjoo]

It's been floating around for a little bit...

http://armsandthelaw.com/archives/2015/02/batfe_moves_to_.php

 

Discuss....

 

I think no way it happens.

[just_some_dude]

Well, if nobody says anything or does anything it will happen. Simple as that. Always a possibility that it will happen either way. The idea behind freedom in this country is long gone. Really it is something that needs to be relearned and knowledge to get it back. People should also band together and protect each other. We can stand up for ourselves, but getting gunned down by a politician's pawn (police) doesn't work out so well. Once we are taken away from the herd we are easy targets. If people are willing to let people get picked off, then we will continue to live as slaves.

 

In addition, just because they pass a law doesn't mean you have to follow it. But again, people need to stand up together to protect from the unreasonable and obviously illogical law. If we stand up and support someone who refuses to follow these bad laws we win. If we don't, we lose. Up to me, up to you.

[just_some_dude]

I also have this odd feeling that the BATFE is also just wanting to collect information from people sending them emails to track and pounce on when needed... but, that is just another side to my thinking. Either way I am writing.

[Wojo72]

It's absolutely going to happen.   7.62x39 steel core was banned a while ago.  I believe that it was because shops started manufacturing 7.62x39 pistols.  Steel core pistol ammo is no bueno according to our masters.

[smccrory]

It's absolutely going to happen. 7.62x39 steel core was banned a while ago. I believe that it was because shops started manufacturing 7.62x39 pistols. Steel core pistol ammo is no bueno according to our masters.

Was steel core 7.62x39 banned for sale, or just offensive to indoor shooting ranges wanting to protect their backstops? It's been a while since I bought surplus 7.62, so maybe I'm just out of it, but I swear I see it at gun shows...?

[Wojo72]

Prior to 1994 you could by imported (Chinese were the big dogs) steel core 7.62x39 really cheap.  It was banned from import because somebody (Olymic Arms?) built an AR style pistol in that caliber.  I don't think that they sold any of them.  They were demonstration units for the Shot Show.  The ATF used that as an excuse to pounce.  Ever since then I have  only seen AK ammo with a lead core instead of steel. I just had a handgun at that time so I wasn't important to me.  I wasn't made aware until I picked up a SKS a few years later.

 

AP ammo in a rifle = OK

AP ammo in a pistol = No bueno.

Edited February 18, 2015 by Wojo72

[smccrory]

Ok, that's news to me, thanks. I bet I bought the last case of ammo for my own SKS around then. I still have some left, being that I strongly prefer to shoot rifles outdoors but don't get to outdoor ranges often enough.

[RCBS]

"No sporting purpose."

Wondering what else may soon have no sporting purpose. Not sure what sporting purpose has to do with anything?

[wht_scorpion]

I got some of that steel core 7.62x39 ammo around

[smccrory]

I was at the Westland gun show yesterday and noticed the only 5.56 or .223 of any quantity was the Wolf stuff most indoor ranges don't permit. No surprise, no M855 to be found. A friend bragged he's sitting on 10,000 rounds of M855 and honestly I can decide whether to hate or admire his planning. [emoji15]

[Wojo72]

How was the show overall?   I stopped going because it wasn't worth the admission fee.

 

 

I was at the Westland gun show yesterday and noticed the only 5.56 or .223 of any quantity was the Wolf stuff most indoor ranges don't permit. No surprise, no M855 to be found. A friend bragged he's sitting on 10,000 rounds of M855 and honestly I can decide whether to hate or admire his planning. [emoji15]

Edited March 1, 2015 by Wojo72

[smccrory]

How was the show overall? I stopped going because it wasn't worth the admission fee.

The Dayton show is bigger and better, but Westland is still worth $9 once in a while. I think of it as entertainment similar to a movie ticket or motorcycle museum trip. Sometimes I come away without buying anything, sometimes with a new toy, sometimes with something unexpected, sometimes learning something, and always with a better sense of what's selling and current prices. Beats being cooped up all winter. [emoji4]

[smccrory]

A few thinks you can do about the M855 ban:

https://petitions.whitehouse.gov/petition/stop-batfe-banning-xm855-ammunition/XrvVh1cj

And better yet I received this from LEPD's main training guy:

Last November this administration closed the last lead smelting plant in America. They used EPA regulation to close all lead smelting plants in America calling lead a hazardous material, this was step one in attempting to create gun control through ammunition manufacturing. They put thousands of Americans out of work while creating an ammunition shortage along with creating outrageous pricing for ammunition. Make no mistake, this is a very thought-out plan which has been discussed within this administration since 2008. The thought process is to take ammunition out of circulation or make it so costly that the normal person cannot afford it. They are now moving forward with another step of this plan and they are using more administrative policy. This time through the BATF to ban a type of ammunition used in the most common rifle. This is referred to as the M855 Ammo Ban calling it armor-piercing. There are other rounds of ammunition on the chopping block after this ban. The plan is to chip away at the available ammunition lists until they have virtually banned most rounds of ammunition. This will be followed by a push to institute the Small Arms Treaty, if you do not know what this is, please research it and what it has done around the globe. We are the last nation that belongs to the United Nations where the citizens can own firearms. We are losing more and more rights everyday by an administration using policy to change laws and create bans. If people do not take a stand now, there will be nothing left. Please take the time and contact your representatives and follow the below instructions to let this administration know you are aware of their plans. Please do not do nothing. We are losing one of our God given rights and it is being done through illegal methods. Speak up now before we lose it all !!!

The Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco, Firearms and Explosives announced on Friday their intent to ban some common flavors of AR-15 ball ammo, ostensibly because of its “armor piercing” capability. You have until March 15 to register comments with the ATF on the move. Instructions for how to do that can be found here. Pro tip: for maximum effectiveness, keep it simple, clear and cogent. Below you will find an example of talking points for your letter.

Gentlemen –

BATFE does not have any statutory authority to prohibit civilian distribution or possession of U.S. M855 specification cartridges under 18 U.S.C. 921 (a) (17) (B), regardless of any ‘sporting purpose’ determination. Nor does BATFE have any statutory authority to prohibit civilian distribution or possession of NATO STANAG 4172 specification cartridges under 18 U.S.C. 921 (a) (17) (B), again regardless of any ‘sporting purpose’ determination. The statutory language supposedly authorizing such a prohibition, cited by Denise Brown on Page 3 of the BATFE text titled “ATF FRAMEWORK FOR DETERMINING WHETHER CERTAIN PROJECTILES ARE “PRIMARILY INTENDED FOR SPORTING PURPOSES” WITHIN THE MEANING OF 18 U.S.C. 921 (a) (17) ©”, reads:

(B) The term “armor piercing ammunition” means -

a projectile or projectile core which may be used in a handgun and which is constructed entirely (excluding the presence of traces of other substances) from one or a combination of tungsten alloys, steel, iron, brass, bronze, beryllium copper, or depleted uranium; or a full jacketed projectile larger than .22 caliber designed and intended for use in a handgun and whose jacket has a weight of more than 25 percent of the total weight of the projectile.

The projectile specified in M855 specification ammunition, U.S. Army TACOM ARDEC Drawing 9342869, has a combined steel and lead metal core. 18 U.S.C. 921 (a) (17) (B) (i) applies only to projectile cores:

….constructed entirely (excluding the presence of traces of other substances) from one or a combination of tungsten alloys, steel, iron, brass, bronze, beryllium copper, or depleted uranium….

The core of the M855 projectile is not constructed entirely of steel, nor is the steel in the core of the M855 projectile combined with “tungsten alloys, steel, iron, brass, bronze, beryllium copper, or depleted uranium”. Rather, the steel in the projectile core of TACOM ARDEC Drawing 9342869 bullet is at the front of a lead metal component. These two components together, both within the projectile jacket, constitute the M855 projectile core. You can confirm this combination by reviewing U.S. Army TACOM ARDEC Drawing 9349656, which establishes the engineering requirements for the M855 projectile core.

Please note the English language definition of the adverb ‘entirely’, as taken from Merriam-Webster:

Definition of ENTIRELY

1 : to the full or entire extent : completely <I agree entirely> <you are entirely welcome>

2 : to the exclusion of others : solely <entirely by my own efforts>

By any correct reading of the English language, the core of the M855 projectile is not composed entirely of steel, or a combination of steel with any of the other metals specified in 18 U.S.C. 921 (a) (17) (B) (i).

18 U.S.C. 921 (a) (17) (B) (ii) applies only to projectiles larger than .22 caliber, designed and intended for a handgun, so the jacket weight percentage of the .22 caliber M855 projectile is not legally relevant to a determination of the M855 cartridge’s status as ‘armor piercing ammunition’. Also MIL-C-63989C (AR), the U.S. Army specification covering M855 cartridges, does not mention handguns. Further, the gas port pressure requirements established in Section 3.10.3 of MIL-C-63989C (AR) constructively exclude the ‘AR Type handguns’ cited in Denise Brown’s text as an application for M855 cartridges.

Before an 18 U.S.C. 921 (a) (17) © ‘sporting purposes’ exemption can be considered, BATFE must establish that the projectiles in M855 cartridges are indeed subject to ‘armored piercing ammunition’ regulation under 18 U.S.C. 921 (a) (17) (B). BATFE has not made this case, nor can BATFE make this case without abusing the clear statutory language.

Please withdraw Denise Brown’s “ATF FRAMEWORK FOR DETERMINING WHETHER CERTAIN PROJECTILES ARE “PRIMARILY INTENDED FOR SPORTING PURPOSES” WITHIN THE MEANING OF 18 U.S.C. 921 (a) (17) ©” and terminate any further efforts to prohibit civilian possession or distribution of M855 projectiles and/or cartridges. Please extend all of these comments to cover any and all cartridges conforming to NATO STANAG 4172, which are functionally and constructively identical to U.S. Army M855 cartridges.

Your Name

Thank You,

Be Elite Tactical Training of Ohio

www.bettoh.com

614-370-5031

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[bloodninja420]

I'm no ballistics expert, but wouldn't a run of the mill 30-06 round have more "armor piercing" capability than this M855?

[smccrory]

I'm no ballistics expert, but wouldn't a run of the mill 30-06 round have more "armor piercing" capability than this M855?

I'm no expert either but I know my shoulder hurts a lot more from a 30-06 or 7.62x54R.

[ReconRat]

1000 rounds SS109 from General Dynamics in Canada $549.99

Boxer reloadable - no green painted tip

surplus DEA contract - probably won't last long

 

http://www.midwayusa.com/product/855219/general-dynamics-ammunition-556x45mm-nato-62-grain-ss109-penetrator-full-metal-jacket-box-of-1000?cm_mmc=pe_weekly-_-hotbuy-_-ss109_20150302_1-_-Main_Image

[owndjoo]

I'm no ballistics expert, but wouldn't a run of the mill 30-06 round have more "armor piercing" capability than this M855?

you know of any pistols that fire 30-06?  That's the issue as well

[Pokey]

If Barry gets his wish, this would only be the beginning for other calibers and types getting banned.

[speedytriple]

They make AR type rifle in 30/06 now so yes you could make a pistol. Better call the gov. and let them know.

[smccrory]

If Barry gets his wish, this would only be the beginning for other calibers and types getting banned.

 

That's a valid concern.  In fact, .223 is already getting gobbled up out of fear of ammo shortages all over again.  And that of course will bring on those very shortages, but I can't blame anyone for hoarding.

 

It's a long-running joke that Barack is the world's greatest (civilian) gun salesman ever, but it has to be seriously true by now.  Had I been smart, I would have invested heavily in arms 8 years ago to take profits when the scares are the worst, though there's always the risk that your stock will suddenly become illegal for you to resell I guess.

 

Anyway, I picked up my first AR and 1000 rds of ammo tonight, simply because I could, and they're fun shooters.  I was on the fence prior to the 855 ban, but that sealed it for me.  Thanks for the motivation Mr. Prez!

[Wojo72]

What kind of AR15 did you get? What configuration?

[smccrory]

What kind of AR15 did you get? What configuration?

Well, I was going to build my own but changed my mind and decided my first AR should be pre-built to learn from an already working system. I was then going for a light and simple M&P 15 Sport or a Ruger AR556, but neither were available at the price I wanted. Joe at Vances talked me through my goals, and I settled on a Windham Weaponry SRC with a Vortex StrikerFire II red dot for what I think was a great combo price. It was more than I wanted to spend, but still a lot less than these things are under ban threat, so I feel pretty good about it.

[Pokey]

That is awesome Scott, and Windham makes real good stuff. Still should have done your own build IMHO, it is so easy and fun to do.........EASY!!!!!

[smccrory]

Thanks Brian! I'll probably still do my own build, but soon enough I need to buckle down on that CB77. [emoji56]

[Wojo72]

Very nice!  I have never owned a Windham rifle but I think that most of the employees used to work for Bushmaster so it should be one hell of a rifle.  That makes my A2 HBAR with the standard stock look downright booooooorrrrrrrrring!  You need to put a bayonet on just for the hell of it.  

 

 

Well, I was going to build my own but changed my mind and decided my first AR should be pre-built to learn from an already working system. I was then going for a light and simple M&P 15 Sport or a Ruger AR556, but neither were available at the price I wanted. Joe at Vances talked me through my goals, and I settled on a Windham Weaponry SRC with a Vortex StrikerFire II red dot for what I think was a great combo price. It was more than I wanted to spend, but still a lot less than these things are under ban threat, so I feel pretty good about it.