Can i get some advice on improving braking and corner entry speeds?

[OSUYZFR1]

Here's a visual of what I mentioned above. Bottom right side of the pic show the lap time difference. Lost .7 of a sec on the brakes on the back straight. Just trying to help people understand how much time can be made up on the brakes. 

[F4iguy]

Since Dan brought up tire loading, I have a few observations, comments and questions.  One comment is that upon leaning and as you lean more, you scrub off speed.  This is part of the physics of our amazing sport that makes it so interesting.  In the case of using the turn to scrub speed, I have noticed on some turns I barely need to brake - such as Turn 1 and 2 at Mid O, and various "kinks" at various tracks.  In these cases, your front suspension is not fully loaded, so my question is how does that affect the traction during the turn?  I low-sided in a fast turn and probably had not warmed my tires enough, but also didn't use much if any braking going into the turn.

[TimTheAzn]

I believe you won't have as much traction with an under loaded front end vs. a loaded one. I believe Ken Hill mentions he see's lots and lots of crashes due to under-loaded front ends.

[owndjoo]

picking a braking and turn in point is going to be the best way to be consistent and adjust your entry speed.  Something that I really started working on once I got a track figured out, was actually braking less and less.  I've always been a big corner speed guy and focus on entry and mid corner speed.  I used to brake hard and late all the time, but that tends to mess up entry speed and unsettle the chassis.  Something I like to do is keep my braking point the same, but brake less and turn in a touch earlier and turn in quicker.  Try to get to full lean earlier and earlier each lap and carrying that speed through the corner.  I used to hit full lean at the apex a lot of times, but have gotten more focused on braking while up and down and throwing the bike to full lean immediately at turn in.  Now, you have to adjust the entry based on each corner.  You have to plan out setup, entry, mid corner, and exit based on what is coming next and trying to connect everything.  I found at mid ohio that on a 600 I could actually not touch the brakes in T1 and T2 and turn in waaaay earlier than I ever used to.  The engine braking on the back shifts provided enough scrubbing of speed and front end load.  But in racing things change as well when overtaking or preventing being overtaken, this is where using the previously developed late braking markers come in handy. 

[owndjoo]

On 3/4/2017 at 2:13 PM, F4iguy said:

Since Dan brought up tire loading, I have a few observations, comments and questions.  One comment is that upon leaning and as you lean more, you scrub off speed.  This is part of the physics of our amazing sport that makes it so interesting.  In the case of using the turn to scrub speed, I have noticed on some turns I barely need to brake - such as Turn 1 and 2 at Mid O, and various "kinks" at various tracks.  In these cases, your front suspension is not fully loaded, so my question is how does that affect the traction during the turn?  I low-sided in a fast turn and probably had not warmed my tires enough, but also didn't use much if any braking going into the turn.

You'll be surprised at how much you actually are loading the front tire by just letting off the throttle and rotating into the lean.  This is also where having proper sag/preload settings will keep the weight where it needs to be.  The only time your front end is "not fully loaded" is when you are hard on the throttle with the rear end squatting.  This is why it can be difficult to get the turn started on a WFO kink.  The geometry is different and the front tire doesn't have much weight/influence on the bike.  Some places I will roll off for a split second as I put input to the bars and immediately back WFO.  That is another part of hard braking to remember, when the front is collapsed, your rake/trail numbers go more aggressive and the bike will turn in quickly.

[TimTheAzn]

Remember more lean angle = more risk. The longer you are leaned over = more risk.

You want to be the fastest to the slowest part of any corner and the fastest getting away from the slowest part.

 

To add: Ken Hill was talking about Josh Hayes saying that he bet that he had the slowest rolling speed at a particular corner than anyone else running that particular day. Don't let that fool you, he was the quickest getting to the slowest point and the fastest getting away from the slowest point.

Edited March 6, 2017 by TimTheAzn

[blue03636]

20 minutes ago, TimTheAzn said:

Remember more lean angle = more risk. The longer you are leaned over = more risk.

You want to be the fastest to the slowest part of any corner and the fastest getting away from the slowest part.

 

To add: Ken Hill was talking about Josh Hayes saying that he bet that he had the slowest rolling speed at a particular corner than anyone else running that particular day. Don't let that fool you, he was the quickest getting to the slowest point and the fastest getting away from the slowest point.

I'm assuming this was in response to Drew's comments. I would probably listen to his advice since I believe he's the only one here with AMA experience. I have actually starting running the way he does about 3 years ago. The thing is that you get to full lean quick but then on the gas quick too.

[TimTheAzn]

12 minutes ago, blue03636 said:

I'm assuming this was in response to Drew's comments. I would probably listen to his advice since I believe he's the only one here with AMA experience. I have actually starting running the way he does about 3 years ago. The thing is that you get to full lean quick but then on the gas quick too.

I think we are on the same page, I wasn't disagreeing with what Drew said. He mentioned "braking while up and down and throwing the bike to full lean immediately at turn in" to me that was like saying get to the slowest part of the corner (which I would think is when you are at max lean) quickly from being up and down, thus squaring off the corner and then once you've apex'd start thinking about standing the bike back up and getting on the gas.

Quickest to the slowest point and quickest away from the slowest point. Hopefully he chimes back in to confirm or deny if we are thinking of the same idea.

[blue03636]

7 minutes ago, TimTheAzn said:

I think we are on the same page, I wasn't disagreeing with what Drew said. He mentioned "braking while up and down and throwing the bike to full lean immediately at turn in" to me that was like saying get to the slowest part of the corner (which I would think is when you are at max lean) quickly from being up and down, thus squaring off the corner and then once you've apex'd start thinking about standing the bike back up and getting on the gas.

Quickest to the slowest point and quickest away from the slowest point. Hopefully he chimes back in to confirm or deny if we are thinking of the same idea.

I still haven't work up fully yet. 

[TimTheAzn]

Just now, blue03636 said:

I still haven't work up fully yet. 

All good, I'm 100% open for corrected or being called out on incorrect ideas/information/ understanding of concepts. Just want to learn and provide my insight when applicable. 

[cOoTeR]

I've been listening to those ken hill podcasts but some of the terminology he uses is beyond me. The 2 biggest ones that get me are the corners (entry and exit) and when he's talking about first and last 5% braking and discribing them as being 1,2,3,4,5 (quickly for first 5% braking) then 5,, 4,,, 3,,, 2,,,,,,1 (slowly for last 5%). I jumped to the later podcasts about the entry and exit corners.  He talks about identifying them by "what they have to offer" more deceleration zone or more acceleration zone. I don't understand how to identify that. Also he mentions picking a point to get off the brakes and work backwards from there. How do I identify the off the brakes marker?

Can someone dumb this stuff down for me a little please? 

[blue03636]

The entry and exit have to do with the straights before and after the corner. If it's a short straight leading to a long straight it's an exit. Then long straight leading to short is entry. Meaning you can make up more time focusing on the longer of the two straights to make up more time. You don't want to focus a ton of effort into an exit when it's Only 50 feet long.

[cOoTeR]

Ok thanks, the way he was talking about it seemed like it was the corner itself that determined the type it was. 

What does he mean when he's counting out numbers 1-5 and 5-1 when describing the first and last 5% of braking? I understand getting on the brakes initially at 5% of brake contact to settle in the suspension. I'm assuming the last 5% is also referring to brake contact to unload the suspension in a smooth manner and not the last 5% of braking distance correct? I'm at a loss when it comes to the numbers he's counting out is it the speed the brakes are applied and releases or how the pressure is applied?

[cOoTeR]

We had another race today. During practice I tried working on the advice given and the things Ken Hill talks about in the podcasts. My goal for the day was to improve and get more comfortable on the bike. 

I worked on where to release the brakes and get on the throttle trying to minimize my time at neutral throttle. I worked on trying to improve my exits. I worked on telling myself to move my eyes (a lot, I was surprised how many times I had to remind myself to move my eyes more). I tried to work on smoother inputs and the first and last 5% but I often forgot that. But I could tell that I was getting better and more smooth with each lap. Everything I was working on took less and less thought with every lap. Before long I feel I will become a lot more competitive. 

I was able to move up to 2nd in the points today as well. My friend that was sitting comfortably in 2nd had been giving me shit after the practice rounds for being significantly slower than the experienced riders even though I had just gone to the socal supermoto school. During the heat race I was still working on improving and not focusing on trying to push myself to go faster. He took a different approach and tried chasing faster riders. He crashed out 4 or 5 laps into the heat race. He hurt his leg and broke the reservoir for his front brake fluid. He couldn't even start his bike because his leg hurt to bad to kick it over even if his brake fluid wasnt leaking. He wasn't able to make the main race and didn't get any points for the day. After he realized I surpassed him in points he didn't have much more to say.

Hopefully I can keep improving and hold him off for the rest of the season.