sword vs gun

[Guest Ponyfreak]

Enjoy:

 

http://mail.cu.ac.kr/~cave10/NihotoVSpistol.wmv

 

 

http://data.millim.com/mybbs/mbbs00200/20041119/mgun.wmv

[Ambrosia]

thats sweet

[Guest Harris92]

wow

[96MustangCobra]

Wow, that is pretty amazing that it didn't do serious damage to the sword.

[morabu]

that just shows how well made some of those swords can be!

 

i didn't expect it to last through even 1 shell from that huge ass machine gun!

 

amazing!

[desperado]

Japanesse sword metalurgy is an art. THey were light years ahead of the US in making steel during out industral revolution and really didn't even realize it.

 

Quick metalurgy lesson.

Steel, is actually iron with carbon added in small quanities 1 to 3%. Swords are make by hand in a forge, that is fired by coal. And coal ash is carbon. The act of folding the steel (blades were beaten flat then folded in half down the long axis) numerous times including the carbon into the iron, making it steel. The art of blade folding also exposes more of the metal, allowing the impurities to rise out of the steel that does not take place in non folded forgings. The only other way to get *** impurities out of the steel is to completely liquify it, which was not possible years ago due to insufficent heat sources. The industrial revolution actually began in this country because of the invention of coke, which is coal that has bee exposed to intense heat without the level of oxygen present for it to burn. This drives the gasses out of the coal, and makes it burn much hotter enabling the first steel to be made in quanity in this country by making it possible to melt iron to a liquid state, and then add carbon in the quanities needed to make steel.

[Mowgli1647545497]

Cool vid. But I'l be devil's advocate and say I'm willing to bet you could put any piece of 1 inch deep tempered metal in there with a decent bevel in the front and achieve the same results. Krupp CK55? 50CrV4?

 

Originally posted by desperado:

Japanesse sword metalurgy is an art. THey were light years ahead of the US in making steel during out industral revolution and really didn't even realize it.

...

Balony. The Japanese actually sent their engineers to the US and Germany order to learn how to make high quality steel for armor for their battleships before the turn of the century.

 

I see an opportunity for dispelling some hype around japanese swords, swordsmenship, armor, and the men who used them. So I'll take it. smile.gif Too many Jean Claude Van Damme movies and sword sales on Home Shopping Network pertpetuating the myths makes kittens die.

 

Read and get angry.

 

Whole lotta dead kittens in America. Thanks Hollywood and the glut of hometown dojo gurus for that. Poor dead kittens.

 

I had a coworker from Aomori once tell me when we were chatting about junk like this that he couldn't fathom how unbelievably gullible American people are around this whole samurai&sword subject. He said there are a lot of "Barnum and Bailey" people who make a good living because of these legends. He also told me his friends used to drool over rapiers from Toledo Spain, and moorish blades...

 

[ 30. January 2005, 09:17 PM: Message edited by: Mowgli ]

[Nate1647545505]

Interesting video none the less.

 

That machine gun is f`n lethal. Can't imagine what it does to a person.

[Science Abuse]

Originally posted by Mowgli:

Balony.

Not balony. Though in recent time they have been surpassed, their steel was superior to all else for over 7 centuries. They needed our help because you cannot mass produce hand folded steel for armor. It takes a hundred man hours to create one such sword, of course they arent going to make battle ships out of the same stuff.

 

The techniques they've been using to make swords date furhter back then our rennisanse, and they are still of equal or greater quality then the best we can produce today.

Can you put a hunk of high quality contemporary steel up there and get the same results? Probably, but that guy still made that with is hands. So no balony, it is an artform.

Technicaly that sword isnt realy tempered, it has a carburized cutting edge.

[Mowgli1647545497]

Originally posted by Tenzig:

... Though in recent time they have been surpassed, their steel was superior to all else for over 7 centuries. ...

I think you're buying into a whole pile of recently rewritten history. Granted by now its overwhelmingly pervasive, almost to the point of just being accepted as fact, but is it the truth? Nope.

 

When I get home tonight I'll forward a few links - if I can find them, that may dispell some of the pop-culture-spawned misinformation surrounding this. "Pop History" I've heard it called somewhere.

 

Again, its to few people's benefit to learn the truth, mainly because who cares really, and also there's a whole industry of folks who make a buck (and often their livelyhood) by allowing such legends to grow, ala:

 

Mr X: "I deal in samurai swords - why in the world would I say anything to lower their aura."

 

Mr Y: "I teach martial arts - why in the world would I do anything to lower its aura."

 

Gimme a few hours and I'll get you some interesting reading. Did youy read the link above that I provided? You can get to a goodly amount of dispassionate material from there with a little looking too.

 

EDIT: I actually found one article without too much difficulty. Here you go.

 

[ 02. February 2005, 03:50 PM: Message edited by: Mowgli ]

[Science Abuse]

Ask anyone who's known me for any lenth of time, I'm a sword nut, and have been for a decade.

There's no reason to bash other ancient metlugist cultures. It is true that Toledo was not rarely visited by Japanese sword makers wishing to learn what they were doing. And it is easily debatable that Damascus pumped out steel that surpassed them both. The Articles you posted are, at best, irrelevent. The first, one can write ans speculate all they want, but it's entirely up to those commanding. The second comes off as an angry white guy who doesnt like the orient steeling whities lime light. In your search for resources, pick those that have actualy been published, not essay's but random webfolk.

Your argument isn't without validity. You just dont need to bash the hamon blade to make a point. graemlins/thumb.gif

[Guest Ponyfreak]

The vids are cool. Could a regular decent sword cut a soft point 9mm in half? My bet is yet.

 

None the less I has seen some of those swords in person on display in a couple exhibitions in osaka and tokyo, they are indeed works of art.

 

I have also seen pics where they cut entire animals in half with one of those swords.

[Mowgli1647545497]

I'll see your decade and raise you two.

 

All kidding aside - I reread my own post to be sure and I didn't see where I was bashing anything. Far from it. I admit I do get zealous about overcoming hype - of any kind.

 

Hype of P51 Mustangs. Hype of Tiger Tanks. Hype of US Submarines. Hype of Japanese swords. Etc. Its like blood in the shark tank - I see it and I have a preternatural disposition to go after it.

 

So I was taking the opportunity of this thread to throw in some real data, which I haven't linked to here yet, granted, that unfortunately contradicts alot of what is accepted historical fact here in the US.

 

I am also debating the statement that japanese metallurgy was ahead of all others for 7 centuries running, and "lightyears" ahead throughout or up to the industrial revolution.

 

I'm also echoing what historians are starting to say in greater numbers, that for the past 50+ years western pop culture has been awash in misinformation and disinformation about this thats colored our perceptions, andthey are far from unbiased. It really took off in the mid seventies. I know, I watched it happen - I got swept up in it: Blindly just accepting that samurai Nihontou, specifically japanese were the epitome of the sword form and that damascus steel was better than anything else there is. Thats the the status quo in pop history today, and I like to dig deeper and uncover the truth.

 

But theres ALOT of monetary and passionate ediface in place resistent to contradictory evidence.

 

If I can find my stuff from Ewart Oakeshotte, the acknowledged expert on historical swords and swordmaking the world over (r.i.p. 2002 - I think), I'll post him. Also Richard Stein, a highly noted Japanese sword historian and authority.

 

But for now, an article in the Japan Times.

 

I'll take a bit to quote another Japanese sword authority, G. S. Murray Threipland:

"... Another consideration was climate. When the Arabs pushed into Russia, they

found that the Damascus steel swords, which were sharp and flexible in the

desert, became as brittle as glass in cold weather. So they used to rob

Viking graves for the swords, which would work in a cold climate. (Arab

swords of this era were straight and double edged, as were the European

ones). The Vikings responded by bending the sword ritually on the death of

its owner. The religious logic was that the sword had to be 'killed' upon

the death of its owner. The practical logic was by making the destruction

public, everyone would know that it was pointless to rob graves for the

sword.

It is now coming to be realised that European fighting techniques were

actually very sophisticated. Unfortunately the practice was discontinued

when it wasn't needed any more, or was changed into something else. This

was what faced the Japanese at the end of the Edo period, and dedicated

sword masters took steps to preserve their various arts. Hence, here we all

are, practising a Japanese sword art. Would we be practising kendo/iaido if

the European sword arts had been preserved? (I am not talking about fencing,

which was derived from the Small Sword of the 17-18th Centuries)"

and

...

Some of the best knowledge we have of the Vikings comes down to us from the

writings of Arab scholars, the best known of whom is Ibn Fadlan, (fl. AD

920)who journeyed with a group of Vikings (he referred to them as 'Rus", as

did other Arab scholars) who described the armaments thus:-

 

"Every Northman carries an axe, a dagger, and a sword, and without these

weapons they are never seen. Their swords are broad, with wavy lines,

and of Frankish make."

 

The wavy lines refer to the pattern welding, and echoes references to swords

in Beowulf, such as "serpent patterned blade". Also in Beowulf swords are

referred to as "Battle Ray", and "Helmet Splitter".

 

Al-Biruni (973-1051 AD) goes into great depth about sword manufacture, both

European and Middle Eastern. He praises the "wonderful blades of the Indian

smiths, with their rich patterns...." and then goes on to note that "the Rus

have found another way of producing patterns, since they find that Oriental

steel cannot withstand the cold of their winters...." He goes on to state

that the patterns on these swords are deliberately made.

 

Al-Kindi (c 9th Century AD) and the anonymous author of the 11th century

Persian geography 'Hudad al-Alem' , both describe pattern welding in great

detail, in quite poetic terms which I won't go into here.

 

Comments on the quality:-

 

Ibn Miskawaih (died c 1043 AD) records that after the waning of Scandinavian

power in one district :-

 

"....the Moslems disturbed their graves and brought out a number of swords,

which are in great demand to this day for their sharpness and excellence".

 

Finally Nasireddin al-Tusi (can't remember dates offhand) describes the

smuggling of Frankish swords to the East, the import of which was illegal at

the time. He said the going rate was 1000 Egyptian dinars. He describes

the swords as made of soft iron, but so sharp that iron cannot resist their

stroke, and so pliable that they can be bent like paper.

 

It is quite clear that the European swords of the time were of good quality,

although the various Nordic sagas also describe swords that fall short of

expectations. This happened in Japan also. There were swords made that

were good bad and indifferent.

 

 

G. S. Murray Threipland.

Treasurer, British Kendo Association

The point is - people who've studied this for decades are starting to realize - and slowly opening their mouths about it, that in fact its our lack of understanding of other cultures' ancient martial arts and technology rather than an innate superiority of one that has perhaps colored these lopsided perceptions.

 

Japanese martial history is a living history with an unbroken link to its past. Thats something a study of no other culture benefits from. And its led to drawing premature conclusions when comparing the state of ancient contemporary tech - one of which you have an unbroken link to and an abundance of existing examples of (not to mention living breathing bragging practitioners) and the other to which you have almost nothing survivng pristine examples and are only now rediscovering the breadth and depth of.

 

BTW - You're also invited to come check out a 13th century Epee d'guerre from La Rioja I've had since 1979, its pretty nice. And my friend from Aomori hasa pretty nice 17th century shoto.

 

I'll find some links or cut n paste or scan my books if I can't find em on the web.

 

I do remember one anecdote off the top of my head, and that was that following Polo's visit, both chinese and japanese swordsmen sought after, collected, and coveted european rapiers and some persian falchions.

 

[ 03. February 2005, 02:21 AM: Message edited by: Mowgli ]

[Science Abuse]

Originally posted by Mowgli:

[QB]

"... Another consideration was climate. When the Arabs pushed into Russia, they

found that the Damascus steel swords, which were sharp and flexible in the

desert, became as brittle as glass in cold weather.

Indeed, its a consideration that has significance even today. There were many different steel that were suited for very different environments. Hardness and cold often do not mix, thus the benifit of carburizing over full thickness tempering.

 

Would we be practising kendo/iaido if

the European sword arts had been preserved?

Actualy you may find a more hyped intrest in Niten Ichi Ryu, since it has the name Myamoto Musashi attatched to it. There are still many practitioners of the old European ways, they're just harder to find. There was a show ont he history channel that managed to dig a couple up, but I dont remember the name of it. Some Brit and a gang of his goons would set out to learn the strategies of an ancient race or weapon every week. Good stuff, just haven't seen it in a while.

 

It can also be argued that reason that the line of oriental martial history is so unbroken is because they were simply good at it. Usualy conquered cultures dont get to pass on their techniques...unless it was Rome doing the conquering. Europe has been a mixing pot for a couple milenia, cultures mixing or wiping eachother out, invasions here and there, occasional scorched earth, it's tough for anything to survive for any length of time in that environment. Look what happened to Carthage, your average European conquest was pretty thurough.

 

My collection reflects my income. My first sword was an El Cid Tizona, bought at a mall at the age of 15. $100 seemed like alot at the time. My only decent blade is, some what ironicaly, in keeping with the hype you speek of. Not only is it a Katana, but it is the Niten Ichi style, a Paul Chen, $400 ebay special. I picked it based less on hype and more on the fact that I'm tall, so the style suited me best. It's tough to find good steel these days. My best blades were actualy free, made by my grandpa about 60-70 years ago, while working at the Lima Locomotive Works.

[Mowgli1647545497]

Originally posted by Tenzig:

It can also be argued that reason that the line of oriental martial history is so unbroken is because they were simply good at it...

True. And that is the arguement one most hears, yes. Passionately often. But I tend to agree with the growing voices that say other cultures dropped their practical swordsmanship when guns became de riguere, and that japan's isolation and cultural circumstances awarded them the luxury of allowing them to continue to polish and specialize theirs.

 

Are oriental swordsmanship techniques and manufacture better than others today? I won't argue hard against that. But were they better in say 1100AD than say their contemporary viking, arab, and european manufacturing and usage counterparts? I no longer beleive that.

 

...Not only is it a Katana, but it is the Niten Ichi style, a Paul Chen...

Paul Chens are excellent moderns swords for the money. And his replicas show real attention to detail. My brother in law bought a Paul Chen Schiavona last summer and its really nice.

 

I have a Del Tin Antiche war sword thats pretty nice, I'll see if I can take a picture of it. Its 56" total length (hand and a half pattern) and yet is under 5 lbs. You'd like it, it'd be your size.

[Science Abuse]

Though a fan of broad swords, I'm partial to the slice, rather then the bone breaking, helmet splitting chop, thus my attraction the the katana. I'd gotten used to handling my El Cid fairly well, untill I took it apart and saw the way it was made and assembled....now I'm afraid of breaking that cheap peice of shit tongue.gif