Have a read

[Science Abuse]

Linked to me by an avid and enthusiastic republican thatwe all know and love:

http://www.sierraclub.org/pressroom/speeches/2005-09-10rfkjr.asp

Short term solutions to long term problems.

Some highlights:

A top Justice Department official said that this had never happened in American history before, where a Presidential candidate accepts money, contributions from criminals under indictment or targeted for indictment, and then orders those indictments and investigations dropped when he achieves office.

 

Immediately after dropping those lawsuits, the White House abolished the New Source Rule, which was the heart and soul, the central provision, of the Clean Air Act. That rule is the one that required those plants (coal burners) to clean up 17 years ago, and it's the fundamental compromise that allowed the passage of the Clean Air Act. If you go to EPA's website today, you will see that that decision alone, that single decision -- this is EPA's website -- kills 18,000 Americans every single year....This should be on the front page of every newspaper in this country every single day, and yet you're not reading about it in the American press (see Lance bass post).

[copperhead]

Is there any research that backs up any of those numbers? I know someone that did EPA inspections of the plants back in Marietta, and told me that it was cheaper for them to pay the EPA fines for not conforming than it was to actually clean up their emissions.

[Science Abuse]

The reaserch sometimes depends on the state. As with the mercury contamination problem, the only two states in the Union that have not declared some significant percentage of their fish unsafe to eat are also the only two states that never singed off money to pay for the research to be done. I can personaly attest to the Asthma problem. Growing up, the first 17 years of my life, I knew 3 of kids with asthma, 3 out of hundreds. Now, of the 10 or so kids I know that are under the age of 15, 2 have asthma.

Your story from Marietta is very common. It happened in Lima as well. The only people who can change it are the locals, who dont dare do anything to mess with these joints for fear of losing the jobs. The Ottowa river has almost no fishlife whatsoever, apart for a population of Carp, many of which grow heavily tumored with age. That river joins the maumee and dumps into lake Erie.

 

 

Good quotes:

Teddy Roosevelt, a Republican, said that America would never be destroyed by a foreign power but he warned that our political institutions, our democratic institutions, would be subverted by malefactors of great wealth, who would erode them from within. Dwight Eisenhower, another Republican, in his most famous speech, warned America against domination by the military industrial complex.

 

Abraham Lincoln, the greatest Republican in our history, said during the height of the Civil War "I have the South in front of me and I have the bankers behind me. And for my country, I fear the bankers more." Franklin Roosevelt said during World War II that the domination of government by corporate power is "the essence of fascism" and Benito Mussolini -- who had an insider's view of that process -- said the same thing. Essentially, he complained that fascism should not be called fascism. It should be called corporatism because it was the merger of state and corporate power. And what we have to understand as Americans is that the domination of business by government is called communism. The domination of government by business is called fascism. And our job is to walk that narrow trail in between, which is free-market capitalism and democracy. And keep big government at bay with our right hand and corporate power at bay with our left.

What kills me inside is that everyone in the country needs to read this, yet only 2 or 3 people here will actualy read it all. It's up to you whether you agree with him or not. But if you dont read it, if you dont inform yourselves, you dont deserve to weild the power of a ballot.

 

 

We didn't inherit this planet from our ancestors; we borrowed it from our children.

[Tractor]

The entire area surrounding the Du Ponte plant down near Marietta has been proven to be contaminated with some nasty stuff. So severely that a lawsuit has actually been moving through the courts and they just finished giving the population down there blood tests to determine how much its effecting them. I went there and got my test done and money in my pocket. Pretty fun actually, but it all started after around 1999 when the ohio river basically started to stink from all the dead fish. It was actually pretty bad just driving across the river to work everyday in the summer.

 

Evan

[HotCarl]

The entire area surrounding the Du Ponte plant down near Marietta has been proven to be contaminated with some nasty stuff. So severely that a lawsuit has actually been moving through the courts and they just finished giving the population down there blood tests to determine how much its effecting them. I went there and got my test done and money in my pocket. Pretty fun actually, but it all started after around 1999 when the ohio river basically started to stink from all the dead fish.

 

My brother's girlfriend did the same thing, got money for her, her kid, and her mom. Of course they went out and spent it on a new tv but thats besides the point, their from WV what do you expect?

 

What kills me inside is that everyone in the country needs to read this, yet only 2 or 3 people here will actualy read it all. It's up to you whether you agree with him or not. But if you dont read it, if you dont inform yourselves, you dont deserve to weild the power of a ballot.

 

I absolutly agree with you. But the general public doesn't want to address these issue's for the simple fact that the majority of their mindset is "if it doesn't affect me, then i dont give a shit". Thats why bullshit like Lance Bass putting from the ruff makes the news these days. And i agree with you, its sad when a giant news conglomerate like CNN would rather report that than more important public health issues. I read CNN.com every day and not once have i seen a story about any of this, which is sad really. In the case of the DuPonte plant, who is to blame? to company for these crimes or the people for not caring. At least they didnt care until there was money involved.

[Science Abuse]

I have a question for the Lawsuit folk in the Dupont Case:

How much was the check? How much did you sell your health for?

the suit isn't enough, strict and ridged enforcement. Telling them "NO" and bloody meaning it, that is what matters. Closing legal loopholes, electing vigelent citizens, not politicians. These are the means to a safe future, not a lawsuit.

[copperhead]

And keep big government at bay with our right hand and corporate power at bay with our left.

 

If that's the case, then neither side is doing their job.

[copperhead]

Eric, people were paid I think $400 (could very well be wrong) just to go get the test. Beyond that I have no idea.

[Science Abuse]

If that's the case, then neither side is doing their job.

Disagreements.....?....?....? *crickets*

 

But, the man who says he's against big government has weilded more executive power then any president I can think of.

[HotCarl]

Eric, people were paid I think $400 (could very well be wrong) just to go get the test. Beyond that I have no idea.

 

I believe this is correct, 400/per person tested. Though the lawsuit has not gone through, the payoff im sure will be much larger. not that it matters. From what little i know of the case there will be lasting damages for decades.

[Devils Advocate]

I look at this White House and I ask myself --and this may be unfair -- but I ask myself a lot of times, how did they get so many draft dodgers in one place? You know, the President; Dick Cheney, five deferments; John Ashcroft, six deferments. Paul Wolfowitz, Richard Perle, Tom DeLay, Dennis Hastert, Rush Limbaugh. There are a lot of people who dodged the draft during the Vietnam War, and I know a lot of them. Most of them did it because they had moral qualms about that war. But not these people. These people loved the war; they just wanted somebody else to fight it. And it occurs to me that the reason for that is that these are people who don't understand the values that make America worth fighting for. But America is worth fighting for, and it's worth dying for. Those of us who know that it's worth fighting for have to take it back now from those who don't. Thank you very much.

 

 

 

 

Thats a pretty good one right there. This shit is scary.

[copperhead]

Disagreements.....?....?....? *crickets*

 

But, the man who says he's against big government has weilded more executive power then any president I can think of.

 

He might be a Republican, but he's no conservative. I don't have a clue how to actually classify him (aside from all the religious BS).

[copperhead]

And that's about the most thoughtful post Jon has made this year

[Science Abuse]

All he did was quote the last paragraph of the speech, then add a single sentence.....ya know mike, I gotta agree with you.

[Mowgli1647545497]

You know, I've got a simple truth for you all, some would call it the white elephant standing in the room, and its this:

 

The best way to remove these and all contaminating and polluting energy sources is by inventing a better cleaner one and driving it to market. One thats cheaper. Push the legacy technologies to extinction by business nessecity.

 

Hemhawing and legislative wrangling can all be ignored, circumvented, delayed, or outright stopped. You're wasting tons of human effort on stopgap ragplugs. Infrastructure edifice the size of humanity's energy need has never changed and never will by legislation, it changes only by progress. Read some history for all the proof you'll need.

 

I'm sure there are some very important and passionately argued laws about the steam industry still on books. You know what? Who gives a sh!t about them?

 

How about this - for every two lawyers you support (who ultimately make thier money from the fight itself, same as their opponent - foolish then to think such a fight will end quickly, yes? "Hey lets end this quick so we're both out of a paycheck." "Sounds good to me." ...), for every two of them you support, support one inventor.

 

Support inventors and innovative small companies. Get flippin educated about science or instill in your kids the reality that its important.

 

EDIT: I started to go on and on about how law wrangling is a waste of time. The law bends to social trends. Social trends include the market, hell are the market. You want democracy and capitalism to survive and thrive over fascism and communism? Support it. Support invention. Leapfrog right over the legislative arguing. Don't bother or waste breathe winning an argument. Make it a moot point.

 

Or support the never-ending, ultimately-will-go-nowhere, status-quo-extending legislative arguing and waste everybody's time. I'm sure our grandkids will thank us.

[Mowgli1647545497]

I was too negative there. Let me switch hit.

 

People can only read about negativity and warnings for so long. It drains you.

 

What people want to listen to is positivity, innovation and progress.

 

You got guys like Al Gore out there trying really hard to warn people about global warming. But you know, you don't need to warn people. They've been warned. The reason change isn't happening isn't because people aren't warned. Its because there's no alternative. If you've got no choice, what are you going to do? Hell I beleive that even creates some of the global warming neysayers. They know there's no alternative so they rationalize away the problem itself.

 

What guys like Al Gore ought to be doing is going around showing alternatives. Spend a minute or two on the problem, the warning. Then dump that shit, get off it. Show the promising new alternatives. Give some examples of "here's a little company in Iowa thats doing dah dah dah" and so on. Get people educated about the alternatives. People including heads of business. Because if you think for one minute the CEO of Exxon wouldn't jump on an alternative clean-energy fuel source if he viably could from a business point of view in an instant, you're nuts. Everybody wants to move forward, to get better, fundamentally. What Al and the other folks need to do is show ways forward. Ways everyone can go forward. First world and third world countries. Small business and big business.

 

But this current set of zero-sum-game, for one group to win another group has to lose, just sets up a fight for no reason. A fight the entrenched energy edifice is equipped and prepared to fight well.

 

Stop picking the wrong fights. Hell stop picking fights. Open the other door for people instead.

[Science Abuse]

new technology = investment, no matter how awsome it is. You're not going to get anyone to shut down their coal burning plants, no matter how badass your fusion reactor is. But,, thats not realy the point. The pointis, these chaps are breaking laws and geting awy with hit. Hell, they're being urged to do it. There is a sytem in place, there are plenty of inventions around to help these places not kill us, but none of them want to front the cash ti implement in it. It's cheaper to buy a politician.

[El Karacho1647545492]

a politically charged post by the benz guy

 

 

*yawn*

 

 

 

the forums are getting repetitive

[Science Abuse]

Someone else charged it, I just linked it.

[copperhead]

I just can't believe I'm agreeing with you on something political. Something bad is going to happen soon http://smiliesftw.com/x/turbonoes_3.gif

[Science Abuse]

It already has, mike, it already has.

[Spidey2721]

Hey Eric, the Ottawa here in lima (not the one thats up north by toledo, two different rivers) isnt exactly as bad as we once believed. Ange has a new job, and one of her tasks there is the test the Ottawa. All her test she took so far have come back in range of what they should be. The only problem is these test have not been taken down river of the refinery. Her area doesnt extend that far. I will ask her exactly what her test, test for, and post that. I really want to know how good or bad the Ottawa really is casue I want to fish it.

 

I will say anyone who doesnt think that Bush has been one of the worst for enviromental issues has to be looking thru rose colored glasses. Thats my personal thoughts though, and yes I did vote FOR him. Mowgli I agree with your "switch hit" post completely.

 

later,

jay

[Kevin R.]

a politically charged post by the benz guy

 

 

*yawn*

 

 

 

the forums are getting repetitive

 

Bring back JP.

[Science Abuse]

The only problem is these test have not been taken down river of the refinery.

You mean, downriver like the stretch that ran by us, that we waded in on occasion? I beleive that it's pretty much centered on the 'ol Standard Oil practices, and BPs after that (untill they shut it down). The relative lack of activity this last decade may have helped things out. Upstream of the big poluters, all that realy effects the river would be fertilizer from farm runoff.

[Mowgli1647545497]

You're not going to get anyone to shut down their coal burning plants, no matter how badass your fusion reactor is...

Actually thats exactly the only way you get the coal plants to go away.

 

animal power->wood->coal->diesel->fission->???

 

Not one of those better/cleaner energy advancements were driven by legislation anywhere in the world. Not the research, not the adoption, not the migration, not the shutdown of the old. None of it.