TTQ B4U Posted August 15, 2007 Report Share Posted August 15, 2007 Whoa whoa whoa, the DoD budget is not the Iraq budget... people are getting this confused, this budget runs every aspect of the DoD, salaries, research, new technologies, feeding the troops, but this is not the money allocated to Iraq. Also, our DoD budget isn't even the highest in the world against homeland GDP. the graphic in the OP just shows military spending, it doesn't seperate the DoD budget and Iraq. my comments were simply on the fact and the graphic and took my opinion on the money were spending on Iraq into account...and taking that into account, our gov't is wasting way too much on the military and war efforts. they need to get their act together before we begin to see some real negative affects that money won't fix. You keep saying use the money in other ways, and you really aren't getting the point, that money cannot be used in other ways, you cut budgeting and we fall behind, we lose soldiers, thousands of DoD employees lose their job. ...........Like I said, defense budgeting will not decrease until there is a surplus. I understand your point about the budget and needs for these costs, etc.... And I don't get what you mean by "it may be part of your world, but not mine". You are taking a statement of fact and blinding yourself to it to fit your opinions what I meant is since you work in that world and I don't, it may all seem logical and okay with you, but IMO, it seems our country is in so much debt over the Iraq thing and spending so much on the military to sustain what all is happneing now that in the end we're the one who has lost / losing. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TTQ B4U Posted August 15, 2007 Report Share Posted August 15, 2007 Tax breaks are going to do nothing when foreign workers work for 1/4 of the wage of an American worker in manufacturing the overall cost of labor is only 20-30% of the final costs of a product. believe me, I work and live in manufacturing. Increased direct costs such as customs, duties, misc. fees, insurance, licenses and the largest, transportation costs all offset any labor savings. the reason costs on items from these outside nations are lower is they built to lessor standards and with inferior products. wallmart shoppers love that shit. I personally don't buy cheap crap. anyway, back on track to defense spending, IMO, the US is sinking way, way too much money into the whole war thing. perhaps the budget you outlined is in place and valid, so be it. we lived with that for years. however, there's no hiding that overall we are spending Billions more than we did prior to all this middle east crap and far more than we should. that's my point. The law of economics will ultimately show through and already is. All this out of control military entitlement spending has got to end. They can't tax the people any more and our borrowing power from other countries is taking a shit as they aren't going to put up with our growing debt and own deficit. The dollar is going to take an even further hit and rates will continue to rise as a result of it all. To me that spells more trouble for and higher inflation. Our manufacturing base of business is gone and the borders are crawling with illegals who continue to exploit our system and it's flaws. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
stevethepirate Posted August 15, 2007 Report Share Posted August 15, 2007 of course america spends significantly more than anyone else. looking at the budget, so much goes towards "foreign obligations"... its all necessary in order to keep this world together. we're a hegemonic power, if we stopped spending money on other countries... start learning chinese! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TTQ B4U Posted August 15, 2007 Report Share Posted August 15, 2007 yeah but we need to give up the constant need to police the world and solve everyone else's problems. we may currently possess an "appearance" of domination, but in reality we are losing our reputation and have already lost our manufacturing prowess that once existed. I don't believe wars today are going to be won strictly by brute force. Economic pressure goes a lot further and diplomancy will help gather allies to back us.Take away money and you take away power. We don't need troops in every corner of the earth. We need to start rebuilding a real asset backed dollar if we are to gain or maintain any strength and real power in this world. Those fucks in Iraq and the middle east have been fighting wars like this since before the US existed. They will wear us down one soldier and one dollar at a time. They already are....and they are inflicting more hurt on us financially today that through any other means...and we essentially are doing it to ourselves. We've spent Billions and have only lost what a few thousand soldiers? However, how much has the economy and as a result the entire country suffered in return? of course america spends significantly more than anyone else. looking at the budget, so much goes towards "foreign obligations"... its all necessary in order to keep this world together. we're a hegemonic power, if we stopped spending money on other countries... start learning chinese! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SPLN SUX Posted August 15, 2007 Report Share Posted August 15, 2007 Lets look at something... Canada, has almost no active military. Mexico, has almost no active military. South America, has almost no active military. Half the European map, has almost no active military. Do you know why? Because they arent fucking with other peoples government! They keep to themselves, and all the evils in the world leave them the fuck alone. We should do the same. Pull everyone out in 48hrs. Just like that. Pull them out and not tell a soul about it. Make preperations to defend our own country, on our turf. The people we are fighting are NOT AN ARMY! They are socialy confused Emo teenagers at best! They attack with box cutters and run around with pipe bombs. You want to get rid of the threat? DONT LET ANY MORE IMMIGRANTS INTO THIS COUNTRY!!! Wall it up, fence it up, do what you gotta do, BUT DO IT HERE. .01 +.01 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
stevethepirate Posted August 15, 2007 Report Share Posted August 15, 2007 yeah, ideally that would be AMAZING. people criticize us when we are in other peoples business, but then we get criticized even more when we arent. look at how mad people got at us for our lack of preemptive action in WW2... then in a case like iraq, people got mad because we did take preemptive action. no matter how bad it looks when we are acting as the worlds police, its needed. someone is always going to step up for the role, and if we dont... its going to be bad. the terrorism is not going to end if we leave... we are being targeted because of our backing of israel, along with many long standing historical reasons. the UN is trying to step up to take our place, and try to moderate the international system a bit. unfortunately the whole UN system is very inefficient. if handled correctly, we would have a lot less to worry about, but we're stuck until then. because of the strength of America, we are paying something like 27% of the UN's budget... while other countries are paying a fraction of a percent. this shows how we are expected to be a dominant player, but then we arent meant to actually be present internationally? bs. if people want us to stop trying to "control" the world... then stop expecting us to pay for everything!! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TTQ B4U Posted August 15, 2007 Report Share Posted August 15, 2007 no matter how bad it looks when we are acting as the worlds police, its needed. someone is always going to step up for the role, and if we dont... its going to be bad. I don't buy it. We don't need to step up and certainly wouldn't want others putting their troops on our turf to defend their own interests. Who would step up as the police and make it bad? the terrorism is not going to end if we leave... we are being targeted because of our backing of israel, along with many long standing historical reasons. Terrorism isn't going to go away if we stay either. It's not a battle on the ground that's going to defeat terrorism. Terrorism isn't even the main reason we went into Iraq. We were misled and told there was solid proof WMD existed there at that time. Yet we've found none. We were then told we needed to stay and occupy Iraq to remove al Qaeda, yet al Qaeda was nowhere to be found....except only now after our war brought them to Iraq. We did exactly the opposite of what was intended/told to us. the UN is trying to step up to take our place, and try to moderate the international system a bit. unfortunately the whole UN system is very inefficient. You're right, the UN doesn't have a clue and we sure as hell haven't learned a thing since they brought us into the Korean war to help unify the two sides. My father was called to that stupid "police action." That was stupid move too. We did nothing and to this day Korea remains divided and we still have our troops there too. Ironically in both Korea and Veitnam things there were also based on lies and miscalculations. Sounds a lot like Iraq. I stand by my belief that just as in Vietnam, we're going to lose unless we realize that diplomacy, trade and in some cases leveraging politial and financial power can accomplish goals that our military actions are unable to achieve.....and these actions are less costly. if handled correctly, we would have a lot less to worry about, but we're stuck until then. We're not stuck. we weren't stuck in Vietnam either. We pulled the hell out because it was clear we weren't going to win. I think the same concerns of disaster were predicted then....they said our pulling out would lead to the Communist takeover of the entire Far East. That didn't happen and in fact our trade and relations with Vietnam have been far better ever since. because of the strength of America, we are paying something like 27% of the UN's budget... while other countries are paying a fraction of a percent. this shows how we are expected to be a dominant player, but then we arent meant to actually be present internationally? bs. if people want us to stop trying to "control" the world... then stop expecting us to pay for everything!! Again, we're not stuck paying for anything. We can and should stop that. We need to realize overall that our spreading of the American message of prosperity and freedom aren't going to be accepted everywhere. That's our doing, not the rest of the world. It's always about our justification and calling other nations unpatriotic. Hell, they don't want our patriotism as they are not our citizens! We don't need to stay in Iraq and train troops. We can't change that they lack the one key element they need to survive as a lone society or nation. They lack the inspiration and support because we're trying to force a western-style democracy upon their people. You're right about Isreal...we're hated because we've made it our our obsession to control the oil in the region, and imposing our western-style democracy upon the Middle East. I believe we need to pull out and allow the self-determination for the various middle east regions to sort itself out. The chips are going to fall either way if we stay or leave....and yes, terrorism is going to continue to exist. I just prefer we protect our own borders and get our men and women home and concentrate on our own homeland issues vs everyone else. We don't have to be the self proclaimed police of the world. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Scotty2Hotty Posted August 16, 2007 Report Share Posted August 16, 2007 We've spent Billions and have only lost what a few thousand soldiers? However, how much has the economy and as a result the entire country suffered in return? Ohh I'm sorry that WE made you suffer by sitting on your fucking ass, enjoying your freedom and every other GOD DAMN freedom our great nation has to offer, BY going over and doing our job. You wouldn't say such things if you had to pound the ground day in and day out. The money don't get to everyone there Jack, but never the less keeps most of us alive. Every little bit helps, but when you get rocked by atleast 3 IED's a day, tires, winshields and other shit gets fucked up. Plain and simple. It ain't $20 for a bullet proof plexiglass window. It's not $500 for a new M2 .50 caliber machine gun that got smashed into pieces thanks to those 4- 155mm artillery shells I just went over. Yeah the government maybe spending a bit of money more on the Military, so what? Is that affecting you in anyway shape or form? If you don't like public schools, go private. Simple as that. And if you still don't like it, vote or go to Canada and leave my good coutry be. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Scotty2Hotty Posted August 16, 2007 Report Share Posted August 16, 2007 Again your CNN based opinions on what you see and believe mean absolutely nothing. Thanks. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NTHER91 Posted August 16, 2007 Report Share Posted August 16, 2007 That's classified And BTW, clearance level doesn't matter unless you are handling specific contracts or disbursing funds, neither of which I do. I monitor defense agencies making sure that they don't spend money on things that they are not supposed to and that their accounts stay in balance. your a 22 yr old FUCKING accountant?!? are your kidding me what are you going to do calculate something at us? Grow up and dont get into a pissing match with someone that is smarter than you and dont make your job out to be all classified as most jobs a dfas are not the only reson you cant say is cuz the government dosnt want us to know what they really spend Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NTHER91 Posted August 16, 2007 Report Share Posted August 16, 2007 my 2 cents i think we need to spend everything we need to for the military keep the soldiers happy so they can keep us free, i have so much respect for anyone that is in or was in the service Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PonyPimpstress1647545491 Posted August 16, 2007 Report Share Posted August 16, 2007 Scott, You have a very valid reason as to why we should not attack the government for the war. However, please be open minded with how it effects everyone in their daily life. Just as a small instance: Gas- it is costing the working american more money just to get to work. Because of just this one thing the working american is going to spend less money on leisure. Which will in turn hurt the business owners which may cause lay off's, less money during an employees raise, and so on and so forth. While I appreciate everything that you and every American soldier does for our country by going where ever and when ever the government will send all of you, I wish the government would know when to quit. As far as those in this thread quoting numbers on government spending, you should cite your sources. Unless you are working in the whitehouse you don't know jack shit! Last time I checked people that work for the government that know "calssified information" don't post on message boards claiming they know "classified information". I think it might be a breach in their employee contract or something.... I think they might have those ?!?!?!?! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Scotty2Hotty Posted August 16, 2007 Report Share Posted August 16, 2007 The spending thing is up in God knows where. I knew how a nice chunk was spent, but didn't see REAL #'s. But at the same instance, I enjoyed when people said we were fighting for oil. So if we are/were, why is gas about $3 a gallon? Iraq is one of the world's largest exporters of oil, so there's one sign we don't take their oil. In the same right, you got Exxon and the like in charge of production and the "alternative" fuel research. They wanna line their pockets fat, and will probably influence the policy makers. Either way politics has it's evil ways of being just down right fucked up. It's kinda one of those hope and pray you voted for the right guy or he-she (Hillary ) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Scotty2Hotty Posted August 16, 2007 Report Share Posted August 16, 2007 http://www.aclusandiego.org/article_images/000150/bill%20of%20rights.jpg Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TTQ B4U Posted August 16, 2007 Report Share Posted August 16, 2007 Our involvement over in Iraq has nothing to do with our personal freedoms. We can go off on BS Tangents about terrorism and their attacks on the free world, but in the end, if you think fighting over there is going to lead to our full and utter safety and world peace/love and end terrorism, go ahead and continue to drink the kool-aid and enjoy your stay. Like many others, you're correct, and are just doing your job and pounding the pavement. I'm not slamming you or the soldiers. However, I'm sure those in the field are questioning the decisions being made. If not, and they are just blindly supporting decisions and doing their job, then they are going to be there a while and better enjoy pounding that pavement. My point comes way before you in the field. It's directed at the decisions that put you there in the first place. I don't feel we should just sit around and "do our jobs" or expect you to do that either. We need to make better decisions. We shouldn't be there plain and simple. Don't take my comments as if I don't want to support our troops. I believe you should have whatever you need to get you back safe. My beef is with spending money to be there in the first place or to stay there longer than yesterday. There are better are better ways to protect our freedoms and rights....and if memory serves Osama bin Laden is the one who declared war on us. And your comments on private school....yeah, I actually may do that. Although Dublin schools are very good and it's more of a personal reason why I may not send my kids to their high school, but I have some time there. Point being, just as with the subject at Hand, I'm not going to just sit around and just do "do my job" and support any school levy's when the people running that show can't manage the money they already have. I sure as hell am not going to give them more money to mis-manage. Nice lead in though...perhaps the gov't should spend all those Billions on fixing our educational system and things right here at home. I think overall, that will help our economy, reduce crime and in the end bring us more personal freedom, safety and protect the rights of our consistituion a lot more than fighting in Iraq. It's pretty fucked up that we're rebuilding and investing so much in the infrastructure in Iraq yet New Orleans is still a city of disaster from years ago. I think it's pretty clear, our current administration has completely forgetten the people right here in America. Do you think Bush really honestly gives a shit that our men and women have been fighting a war and away from their families as long as they have? Hell no!, he expects you to just "do your job" as a good soldier. Do as told, don't question authority and take what you signed up for. Not me brother. He and his people don't have all the answers. If he did, America wouldn't be in the situation we're in right now. Ohh I'm sorry that WE made you suffer by sitting on your fucking ass, enjoying your freedom and every other GOD DAMN freedom our great nation has to offer, BY going over and doing our job. You wouldn't say such things if you had to pound the ground day in and day out. The money don't get to everyone there Jack, but never the less keeps most of us alive. Every little bit helps, but when you get rocked by atleast 3 IED's a day, tires, winshields and other shit gets fucked up. Plain and simple. It ain't $20 for a bullet proof plexiglass window. It's not $500 for a new M2 .50 caliber machine gun that got smashed into pieces thanks to those 4- 155mm artillery shells I just went over. Yeah the government maybe spending a bit of money more on the Military, so what? Is that affecting you in anyway shape or form? If you don't like public schools, go private. Simple as that. And if you still don't like it, vote or go to Canada and leave my good coutry be. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TTQ B4U Posted August 16, 2007 Report Share Posted August 16, 2007 That's a good question, but I remember clearly hearing that one of the reasons we were told by Bush that we need to occupy Iraq was to secure "our oil" I rememeber hearing that we would use to protect our economy by paying for the invasion with it too. Instead we've seen the opposite. Oil production is down, oil prices are up and no oil profits have funded the invasion and occupation. We here in the states are paying the price. Gee, I wonder if the Oil Companies and our own gov't aren't working this all in tandem?....but let's just blame the oil companies for extortion that's been blessed by our own gov't and strengthened by fighting a war we can't win. I also recall hearing that if we break the regime in Iraq it would help us in our long term struggle with Iran, yet everything we've done has actually served the interests of Iran. We've fucked with Iran since the early 50's. Again, I remember as my father tells me the stories as he was worried about everything back then. The US and Britian got involved, kicked out their democratically elected leader at the time and installed the Shah. That led to what, 25+ years of cruel rule and in the end left the Ayatollah taking power. As kids we stuidied all this in the 7th grade. Then we go and support the fucker like dumb asses and of course we all remember Jimmy Carter got stuck with taking heat for the hostage takeover that our own involvment basically caused. Our fucking with them over the past 50+ years is what has alienated their people against us. Yeah, war....it's a great thing. It's really helping us in the end. Can't wait until we try and take on Iran too Again, if you enjoy the Kool-Aid, which I hope you do, it's a good thing. Our troops are going to likely be pretty busy thanks to the wise decisions being made. Maybe someday we'll learn how to fight a little more effectively without keeping so many fathers and mothers away from their families. I enjoyed when people said we were fighting for oil. So if we are/were, why is gas about $3 a gallon? Iraq is one of the world's largest exporters of oil, so there's one sign we don't take their oil. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TTQ B4U Posted August 16, 2007 Report Share Posted August 16, 2007 Triple Post It's actually ironic you posted an image of the Bill of Rights.....let me call out all the Liberal Island Folks here to explain to you how our very own Gov't is impeading our very rights as Citizens.....far moreso than any terrorist group has to date. Our fighting in the middle east is simply giving Bush more ammunition to control and regulate more and more. Hmmmm......I wonder if that's not on his agenda? Certainly a nice little perk......hey, now we can listen in on conversations, or even use high power video. I think a story about using such technologies on our own citizens was just on CNN....your favorite news station I'm sure. That shit is a direct result of our involvement in Iraq. I'll let Thorne and others chime in and add there thoughts on how big brother is invading our lives more and more. I may not see their point in every case, but they are accurate in stating Gov't is moving into areas they have no right being.....those areas are "our rights." http://www.aclusandiego.org/article_images/000150/bill%20of%20rights.jpg Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jeffmeden Posted August 16, 2007 Report Share Posted August 16, 2007 Again your CNN based opinions on what you see and believe mean absolutely nothing. Thanks. It sucks, doesn't it, that even the pro-war news outlet is having a hard time spinning this to make the US look good... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LJ Posted August 16, 2007 Report Share Posted August 16, 2007 As far as those in this thread quoting numbers on government spending, you should cite your sources. Unless you are working in the whitehouse you don't know jack shit! Last time I checked people that work for the government that know "calssified information" don't post on message boards claiming they know "classified information". I think it might be a breach in their employee contract or something.... I think they might have those ?!?!?!?! #1, I work with these numbers every day, I can see every dime that is spent when the Ad Hoc's come out. #2, everything i have posted you can find on the web, Congress publishes the Appropriations every year when they are signed into law. I have not given any information that you cannot find on a DoD or White House web page Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LJ Posted August 16, 2007 Report Share Posted August 16, 2007 your a 22 yr old FUCKING accountant?!? are your kidding me what are you going to do calculate something at us? Grow up and dont get into a pissing match with someone that is smarter than you and dont make your job out to be all classified as most jobs a dfas are not the only reson you cant say is cuz the government dosnt want us to know what they really spend I am not even going to address this because what you said makes absolutely no sense... smarter than me, interesting... If you want to know what the DoD is spending, all the reports are out on the web Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LJ Posted August 16, 2007 Report Share Posted August 16, 2007 anyway, back on track to defense spending, IMO, the US is sinking way, way too much money into the whole war thing. perhaps the budget you outlined is in place and valid, so be it. we lived with that for years. however, there's no hiding that overall we are spending Billions more than we did prior to all this middle east crap and far more than we should. that's my point. The law of economics will ultimately show through and already is. All this out of control military entitlement spending has got to end. They can't tax the people any more and our borrowing power from other countries is taking a shit as they aren't going to put up with our growing debt and own deficit. The dollar is going to take an even further hit and rates will continue to rise as a result of it all. To me that spells more trouble for and higher inflation. Our manufacturing base of business is gone and the borders are crawling with illegals who continue to exploit our system and it's flaws. The Pentegon and Congress control war spending for the most part. So I can't really comment on that, as I do not deal with it daily as I do with the DoD spending Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
stevethepirate Posted August 16, 2007 Report Share Posted August 16, 2007 if you cant spell "pentagon" correctly... you probably shouldnt be speaking as if you know all about it.... just my .02 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LJ Posted August 16, 2007 Report Share Posted August 16, 2007 if you cant spell "pentagon" correctly... you probably shouldnt be speaking as if you know all about it.... just my .02 OMG you got me there, its not like I am not in the middle of moving or anything and just typed it out really fast. I can assure you I know what I am talking about Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NTHER91 Posted August 16, 2007 Report Share Posted August 16, 2007 I am not even going to address this because what you said makes absolutely no sense... smarter than me, interesting... If you want to know what the DoD is spending, all the reports are out on the web dont you work managing an apt complex for your dad? or do you work for dfas??? what are your credentials to argue this topic??? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LJ Posted August 16, 2007 Report Share Posted August 16, 2007 dont you work managing an apt complex for your dad? or do you work for dfas??? what are your credentials to argue this topic??? We sold the apartment complex about 1 1/2 years ago... I work for the DoD and I do internal controls and testing What are you credentials to say what I am saying is wrong? And I haven't really been arguing anything to do with the DoD spending, I have been explaining it. Gov't accounting is a lot different than how the rest of the country does accounting Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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