Time for a political debate

[HAOLE]

 

Trust me on WMD is a ricer cop out man.

And you have as much proof of that as anyone else....

[HAOLE]

I am posting this article to help those understand why the Arabs hate us. Many people have heard that the Arabs hate us because we are free, I don't think that is the entire story. The relationship between the U.S. and Israel is the main factor. The Arabs see the support that we give to a Nation that seems nearly unconditional. We give billions per year to fund Israel every year. As a matter of facts it come to nearly 1/3 of our foreign aid budget.

 

Now before you people come out and call me an anti semit, I am not. I am just pointing out fact. I believe that is is in our best interest to support Israel, for a couple of reasons. First of all the Bible tells us to do that (flame on):

 

(King James Version)

Genesis 12:3

And I will bless them that bless thee, and curse him that curseth thee: and in thee shall all families of the earth be blessed. (thee refers to the Jews)

Romans 15:27 "For if the Gentiles have shared in their (the Jews) spiritual things, they are indebted to minister to them also in material things.

 

Secondly I think it is to our best interest to have an alli in the region. An NO Suadi Arabia in not our alli.

 

 

Food for thought....

 

 

 

 

 

When Did the U.S. and Israel Become Allies? (Hint: Trick Question)

By Jay Cristol

 

Mr. Cristol is the author of the forthcoming The Liberty Incident.

 

There has never been a treaty between Israel and the United States. Both countries have shared values and a passion for democracy. While in 2002 Israel is a defacto ally of the U.S., the official U.S. government position is that there is a "special relationship" between Israel and the United States. Those who refer to Israel as an ally of the United States in 1967 are guilty of an anachronism and display a lack of knowledge of history.

 

When the concept of Zionism and establishment of a homeland for the Jewish people was developing in Europe at the end of the 19th century, the idea was not initially popular with the majority of American Jews.

 

Following World War I, the Balfour Declaration of November 2, 1917 was a product of efforts by President Woodrow Wilson at the urging of Supreme Court Justice Louis Brandeis. At that time, support for a Jewish state by the United States and American Jews was not popular.

 

Following World War II and the Holocaust, the United Nations General Assembly passed Resolution 181 on November 29, 1947, which devised a plan to partition the British mandate of Palestine. The Jewish community of Palestine accepted the plan, but the Arabs rejected it. Britain withdrew from mandatory Palestine on May 14, 1948, and Israel declared itself a State. Upon Israel's declaration of statehood, both the United States and the Soviet Union immediately recognized the state of Israel.

 

President Harry Truman, with the urging of his executive assistant, Clark Clifford, acted because he felt "it was the right thing to do." The Soviet motive was less altruistic. Because the government of Israel was controlled by the Labor Party, the Soviets believed Israel would become part of the Soviet Bloc and provide a Soviet entree into the Middle East. Israel chose the West and the Soviets were disappointed. The Soviets then courted favor with Arab countries and developed a hostile position to Israel.

 

Although the United States immediately recognized Israel, it also strictly enforced the Neutrality Act which prohibited the sale or transfer of any military weapons to Israel. The 1948 War of Independence established the state of Israel. No official assistance was provided by the United States. For the first 17 years of its existence, Israel did not receive any military or economic aid from the United States government. In 1948, individual U.S. citizens attempted to send arms to Israel in violation of the Neutrality Act. Some efforts were successful. Some efforts failed and individuals were prosecuted in federal courts. Some were treated sternly, and others were treated more sympathetically. (The first U.S. military weapons sold to Israel by the U.S. government were a few defensive Hawk antiaircraft missile batteries in 1964.)

 

Still, in the late 1940s, the majority of American Jews were not in favor of a Jewish state in Palestine.Israel shopped for arms around the world and acquired a varied inventory of military hardware. During this time frame, France was fighting Arabs in Algeria and thus, according to the ancient Middle East adage, "The enemy of my enemy is my friend," France became Israel's friend and primary supplier of military hardware.

 

Israel bought jet fighters from France. First the Ouragan, then Mysteres, Vatours, Super Mysteres, and finally, the Mirage IIIC, which the French manufacturer Desault developed in cooperation with Israel and with the loan of Israel's chief test pilot, Colonel Danny Shapira.

 

In 1956, President Nasser of Egypt nationalized the Suez Canal and closed the Strait of Tiran. Israel joined England and France in operation Musketeer, a military action which swiftly captured the Sinai and the Suez Canal.

 

Following their military success, England, France, and Israel were coerced to withdraw from the canal and the Sinai by the United States under the policy of President Dwight D. Eisenhower and Secretary of State John Foster Dulles.

 

At this point, the relationship between the U.S. and Israel became strained and cold.

 

The Israelis continued to rely on their French military arms supplier until the 1960s, when Charles de Gaulle came to power. De Gaulle made peace with the Arabs and gave up the French claim to Algeria. DeGaulle then began to mend fences with the Arabs and the first victim of this new reality was the French-Israel connection.

 

By 1966, Israel had purchased and taken delivery of 76 Mirage IIIC jet aircraft and had purchased and paid for 50 more. DeGaulle refused to deliver the 50 additional jets and he also refused to refund the purchase price, which Israel had paid in full. France also constructed some missile boats for Israel at the Port of Cherbourg for which Israel had also paid in full. DeGaulle refused to deliver the boats but they ultimately found their way to Israel by way of an incredible Israeli intelligence caper. (That fascinating story is told in The Boats of Cherbourg by Abraham Rabinovich.)

 

At this point in the mid-1960s, an interesting event occurred. The Israeli Mossad sent an American female agent to Iraq where she cultivated a romance with Munir Redfa, an Iraqi jet fighter pilot who had been trained both in the United States and the Soviet Union. The pilot, a Christian Arab, was married and had two children. The agent lured him to Paris. When they arrived, the eager prospective lover was told, "This is not about sex. If you would like a handsome sum of money and your family out of Iraq, take this ticket and false passport and fly to Tel Aviv. Otherwise, you may fly back to Iraq."

 

The Iraqi pilot made the trip to Tel Aviv and ultimately his family left Iraq. Then, on a lovely clear day, he flew an Iraqi Air Force MiG-21 to Israel, where the family was reunited and he got his handsome amount of dollars.

 

In 1966, the MiG-21 was the Soviet first line jet fighter and no Western country had been able to get near one.

 

While the official U.S.-Israeli relationship had been first indifferent from 1948 until 1956, and then cold from 1956 into the 1960s, one slender strand of cooperation had remained intact. During World War II, Palestinian Jews had cooperated with the Office of Strategic Services (OSS) in the fight against Nazi Germany. Following WWII, the OSS became the Central Intelligence Agency (CIA). The U.S. Chief of Counter Intelligence, James Jesus Angelton, developed, maintained, and nurtured a symbiotic relationship between the CIA and those Palestinian Jews who evolved into the Israeli Mossad.

 

The Israelis assigned Colonel Danny Shapira to study the MiG-21 and after a short time, they turned it over to the United States Central Intelligence Agency. (Danny Shapira trained a U.S. Air Force F-111 Test Pilot, Lt. Joe Jordan to fly it and the MiG-21 was sent to the United States where it spent a lot of time in an Aggressor Squadron at a U.S. Air Force Base in Nevada.)

 

Needless to say, the CIA and the U.S. Air Force were delighted with access to the Soviet's first line fighter and the chill of the Eisenhower/Dulles years began to thaw.

 

Following the turning over of the MiG-21, President Johnson invited Prime Minister Levi Eshkol to his ranch in Texas and Eshkol arrived with a long shopping list. He left with promises of future U.S. military supplies, including A-4 attack aircraft. Although the U.S. military hardware did not arrive in time for the 1967 war, it ultimately replaced the French source for military hardware and the U.S.-Israel special relationship became closer and warmer.

 

In 1967, Israel was threatened with destruction by Egypt, Syria, Jordan, Iraq, and other Arab countries and the June 1967 war occurred. An excellent account of this war, commonly called the "Six Day War," was recently published by Michael Oren - Six Days of War (Oxford Press, 2002). Prior to the Six Day War, the continued existence of Israel was in doubt. The U.S. relationship was becoming warmer but at best the U.S. was a friendly neutral. Dean Rusk said that being neutral was not an expression of indifference, but Israel was not an ally. At the outbreak of the Six Day War, State Department Spokesman Robert McClosky announced on behalf of the United States: "Our position [on the war] is neutral in thought, word, and deed."

 

Following Israel's stunning victory in the Six Day War, a euphoria set in around the world and strong support for the state of Israel developed in the United States. American public opinion swung dramatically in favor of Israel and for the first time in history, a majority of American Jews became Zionists, that is they supported the concept of a Jewish state.

 

From 1967 forward, the special relationship between the United States and Israel developed and grew. It has had its ups and downs on the political level as U.S. national interests, especially the need for oil, make it expedient for the U.S. Government to court favor with various Arab states, but the relationship remained relatively constant and strong at both the military and intelligence levels.

 

Israel did not retaliate against Iraq during the Gulf War when Iraq launched SCUD missiles at Israeli cities. The exercise of this restraint by Israel preserved the coalition of Arab states created by the United States to drive the Iraqis out of Kuwait. This restraint was appreciated by the U.S.

 

Israel has voted with the U.S. at the United Nations about 88 percent of the time, more often than any other nation and the U.S. has usually protected Israel from hostile Security Council Resolutions by the exercise of its veto. Recent polls confirm that the special relationship between the United States and Israel remains strong.

[Guest sti06]

Some of you really have a warped sense of reality. Putting more troops on the ground just gives people who don't want us in their country more human targets. We are not fighting a typical war here. It's funny how people think we can just go in with guns blazing and 200,000+ troops and we would easily be victorious. First of all, we are not fighting a typical army. These are just random people who take every opportunity they can to kill us. They are not stupid. They are not going to come at us with guns blazing all at once. They pick and choose their targets. They do not want us in the country, but they are also not going to fight us into submission. They will just wait it out, killing as many of our troops as possible, until we decide to leave. In other words, this will never end. We will never be able to claim victory in the traditional sense. It will never happen. So either get that into your heads or continue living in your dream world.

[thorne]

And you have as much proof of that as anyone else....

 

 

Well have they found them and announced it no.

 

 

So there for logic dictates that one would believe the mass since on a regualr basis there are people WHO claim to know things and are full of shit. think tinfoil hat type people. I'm not calling scott that but do you have any clue how many times I've been told urban legends by people and they were so sure they were real.

 

This imho fall under the same catagory. And 911 was because of bombs in the building too...

[El Karacho1647545492]

I am posting this article to help those understand why the Arabs hate us. Many people have heard that the Arabs hate us because we are free, I don't think that is the entire story. The relationship between the U.S. and Israel is the main factor. The Arabs see the support that we give to a Nation that seems nearly unconditional. We give billions per year to fund Israel every year. As a matter of facts it come to nearly 1/3 of our foreign aid budget.

 

Now before you people come out and call me an anti semit, I am not. I am just pointing out fact. I believe that is is in our best interest to support Israel, for a couple of reasons. First of all the Bible tells us to do that (flame on):

 

(King James Version)

Genesis 12:3

And I will bless them that bless thee, and curse him that curseth thee: and in thee shall all families of the earth be blessed. (thee refers to the Jews)

Romans 15:27 "For if the Gentiles have shared in their (the Jews) spiritual things, they are indebted to minister to them also in material things.

 

Secondly I think it is to our best interest to have an alli in the region. An NO Suadi Arabia in not our alli.

 

 

Food for thought....

 

This is an excellent post. It doesn't sidestep the issue that yes, the entire middle east sees us as supporters of the Jews in Israel. In fact, I would guess that 90% of nonJewish Americans don't give a rat's ass about what Israel decides to do because what do they give us? The Uzi? bah, humbug. But still, our governments have very strong ties and as the good doctor said, we need a stable, loyal ally in the Middle East and unfortunately we picked the only unpopular kid in the playground.

[Mattsn2o281]

Yea but we did pick the baddest, nastiest, kid on the playground to be friends with. Remember that big dumb kid who kept to himself for the most part, All the kids picked on him, always talked down to him, untill someone shoved him and it took half the school to pull him off? Yea thats Israel lol. It's no secret why we choose to side with them, they have proven time and again they are not to be fucked with. I wish we could take more of their stance on all this shit.

[1972mike]

"To the "We shouldn't have been there in the first place" people...

 

Remember they attacked our country killed tons of people and change our lives and our way of life forever. We needed to do something."

 

My 2 cents

 

1. Never trust the media- they have the power to influence anything they want. (example- if they say this toy is the hottest item for Christmas kids think I have to have this and it becomes popular.)

 

2. 9/11 was not created by Iraq if you check the nationality of the terrorist the majority were from Saudi Arabia. Last time I checked we did not bomb them. However countries like Iraq, Iran, and Afghanistan are supportive to terrorist.

 

3. The United States needs to stop policing the world. That is the problem here is a point to consider why do we need bases in other countries? Would the US let China build a military base on our soil? I would hope not. That is why most countries have a bad taste in their mouth about us. We have problems in this country that need addressed like Katrina, homeless population, immigration, social security, and providing care to those that fought in past wars which sadly make up a majority of the homeless population. The money spent on the war could rebuild every school in America and provide health care to everyone instead of building them for foreign countries.

 

4. The strategy to win the war stay out of others business, and give all the countries internet, cable television, and ipods. They will become westernized in no time.

 

Just my 2 cents

[El Karacho1647545492]

Yea but we did pick the baddest, nastiest, kid on the playground to be friends with. Remember that big dumb kid who kept to himself for the most part, All the kids picked on him, always talked down to him, untill someone shoved him and it took half the school to pull him off? Yea thats Israel lol. It's no secret why we choose to side with them, they have proven time and again they are not to be fucked with. I wish we could take more of their stance on all this shit.

 

They're only big and bad because of the U.S. In the Six-Day War and the Yom Kippur War why did Israel gain massive air superiority? U.S. aircraft. Thats where the big Israel vs. The Rest of the Middle East fight got started.

[HAOLE]

Yea but we did pick the baddest, nastiest, kid on the playground to be friends with. Remember that big dumb kid who kept to himself for the most part, All the kids picked on him, always talked down to him, untill someone shoved him and it took half the school to pull him off? Yea thats Israel lol. It's no secret why we choose to side with them, they have proven time and again they are not to be fucked with. I wish we could take more of their stance on all this shit.

 

 

Israel virtually makes no weapons, beside the uzi and a couple of other items. They have a very limited economy, if it was not for the US Israel would be without arms and food. I am not sure that the Israeli army is so good, they just happen to fight bad armies.

 

The Jewish lobby in the US is stronger than any other lobby, including tobacco, medical, pharmaceutical, and AARP. That is another reason that the Arabs hate us.

[Devils Advocate]

Do they have pokemon in the middle east? If they had pokemon, none of this would happen.

 

 

BTW, I Havent read any actual serious debates on CR in awhile, and I'm pleased to see the level of civility and actual quality debate thats going on in this thread.

[HAOLE]

Do they have pokemon in the middle east? If they had pokemon, none of this would happen.

 

 

BTW, I Havent read any actual serious debates on CR in awhile, and I'm pleased to see the level of civility and actual quality debate thats going on in this thread.

screw you.... you suck

[Devils Advocate]

screw you.... you suck

 

 

 

Wel u r teh Fat nd stoopid, lololol.