Time for a political debate

[Scotty2Hotty]

BTW, there are WMD's. True fact. Not released. End

[Scotty2Hotty]

The BIGGEST problems with the Iraq war:

 

1) We didn't come in with all guns blazing, not enough of a presence, no SHOCK AND AWE. That was a strategic failure.

 

2) If you walk away, you lose on more than just the war.

 

3) Bush is quite possibly the worlds most idiotic communicator.

 

 

We should have came in a lot stronger in this war, I'm no general, but I think that we've got much bigger balls than we displayed the first year or so.

 

There are no WMD's. Iraq did not attack us on 9/11. Osama is not caught yet. Blah, blah, blah, blah, blah. These are all mediocre at best talking points.

 

Have we not figured out the bigger picture? It's not about avenging our killers. We are trying to get them, but that's not the overall objective.

 

 

 

We are out to create stability in a region of the world that has never seen stability. Why you ask?

 

The bottom line is it's all about the oil and protecting the way of life in The United States of America. Bush isn't going to get rich off of this war and I don't think Cheney will either........you can say all the things you want about how their corrupt, how their in it for the money, etc.....but I think it's a mute point.

 

 

This war is about bringing the fruits of democracy to a region that has been ruled by dictators for years. It's the equivalent to giving freedom to a woman, who has been beaten by her husband for years and is just too scared to leave. You have to make it happen, you have to show her the way to success, self-rightousness, and get her back on her feet so she can kick HIS ass, the next time he tries to topple her.

 

Our economy is so driven by the oil that we use. That oil represents our strength and our backbone. If you take away the oil, it can crush us into poverty that our country has never known.

 

In many ways our oil represents our freedom. The second part of the equation is putting the smack down on the islamic extremists who think that our freedom is theirs for the taking.

Where are you gettin this bullshit? Oil my ass, didn't see 1 American at a refinery. Next, we didn't go guns blazing. Ok, were you there engauged in firefights, NO. Statement #2 is correct, now the WMD's do exist, that's all I will say. IF this was all about oil then, why we payin 3$ a gallon? Where you're trying to scrape your facts from is weak.

[Science Abuse]

BTW, there are WMD's. True fact. Not released. End

Either you violated a fairly significant law, or some one fed you a line of shit. It thought about this for a good half hour, thinking of why they would choose to cover up the only thing that stood to vindicate them and their war. Nothing made sense, except:

How do we know Iraq wanted chemical weapons? Easy, we kept the receipts!

Imagine the phone call; "Mr president! We have good news and bad news. The good news is, we've found chemical weapons! The bad news is, allot of it still says 'Made in the USA' on it."

[Conesmasher]

Where are you gettin this bullshit? Oil my ass, didn't see 1 American at a refinery. Next, we didn't go guns blazing. Ok, were you there engauged in firefights, NO. Statement #2 is correct, now the WMD's do exist, that's all I will say. IF this was all about oil then, why we payin 3$ a gallon? Where you're trying to scrape your facts from is weak.

 

It's still about the oil, but not in the context you are speaking. It's about not Americans taking over refineries and inheriting all the wealth that is "big oil". It's about making sure there are the least amount of crazy, radilicalized fools thinking that chaos and destruction should be the way of life.

 

I laugh at $3 gas.......I'm just happy it's not $6/gallon yet. Some folks just don't understand how good they have it.

[Science Abuse]

"We seized the oil feilds, and prices didn't go down! This must mean that it's not a war for oil."

Fools

The they are getting oil at a reduced cost now, they're just not passing it on to the consumer. See "Highest profit margins inthe history of the world". Ceasar didn't make this much money through all of his conquests.

[HAOLE]

"We seized the oil feilds, and prices didn't go down! This must mean that it's not a war for oil."

Fools

The they are getting oil at a reduced cost now, they're just not passing it on to the consumer. See "Highest profit margins inthe history of the world". Ceasar didn't make this much money through all of his conquests.

Actually the government is making more off of oil than the oil companies are... Where is the outrage?

[Science Abuse]

Actually the government is making more off of oil than the oil companies are... Where is the outrage?

Oh it's here somewhere. I've got enough that it's tough to keep track of. I'm about to ebay all my old stuff, I haven't used "I got the answer right, who cares about showing my work!?" in a while, you want it?

[TTQ B4U]

Exactly true.

 

Imagine the phone call; "Mr president! We have good news and bad news. The good news is, we've found chemical weapons! The bad news is, allot of it still says 'Made in the USA' on it."

 

Bottom line is we are spending way too much money on the war and our leaders are leaving their own people behind by investing and spending more than ever before on crap that isn't directly benefiting us here. I can't believe as a country we have so much to spend, yet our own eduction system, health care systems and many cities continue to struggle and could benefit from the same money and focus so wasted over there.

 

As someone said, we're killing terrorists, but a war on the ground isn't going to beat terrorism. Todays war is different. Especially a war against these people. I think we would see by far better results with Political moves and negotiations than by trying to flex muscles.

[El Karacho1647545492]

simple response^^^: we don't negotiate with terrorists. country policy, sorry homes

[Science Abuse]

simple response^^^: we don't negotiate with terrorists. country policy, sorry homes

We don't have to, homes. We can negotiate with the people of the problem countries. The touble is, working with non-terrorist organizations is "whut them ter'ists wunt", and is therefore unamerican.

Killing terrorists, I don;t have a problem with. Avoiding the only possible positive outcome of this conflict because it happens to be what the assholes want is just fucking stupid.

But what do the politicians care, it's not their lives that are being wasted.

[TTQ B4U]

you're reading into my point and taking things too literally. I didn't intend my comments to read that we'll negotiate with the actual terrorists per-se....but rather we should look into various diplomatic efforts, economic options and sanctions if needed. these actions would also be far easier to do with other countries vs asking them to send troops/military support.

 

simple response^^^: we don't negotiate with terrorists. country policy, sorry homes

[Akula]

we are the country we are because of a revolution, let them fight it out and badabing we are done.

[Science Abuse]

we are the country we are because of a revolution, let them fight it out and badabing we are done.

That is a fresh new perspective that I hadn't considered....I like it! The only problem with it is that the lines that divide the Iraqi people are religious, and whatever comes of it will be another Theocracy.

[HAOLE]

That is a fresh new perspective that I hadn't considered....I like it! The only problem with it is that the lines that divide the Iraqi people are religious, and whatever comes of it will be another Theocracy.

That is a good perspective. I will add since the lines that divide the Iraqis is religious, the fight between them will never end. Islam, has never underwent a "reformation" like Christianity. Until they do the problems will not go away.

[Science Abuse]

That is a good perspective. I will add since the lines that divide the Iraqis is religious, the fight between them will never end. Islam, has never underwent a "reformation" like Christianity. Until they do the problems will not go away.

True, they've never had the oportunity to fight eachother, they've always had an outside enemy to focus on.

 

Re; Fighting Terrorism.

As with any radical movement, it is one of resistence. They exist to fight something, and they will continure to exsist, fight, kill and die in the name of resisting whatever.

Hatred is their strenght and their weakness. Want to see a terrorist organization dry up and die? Take away whatever it is that they hate.

 

You have understand what it is that attracts youth to these causes. The words of the Bin Ladens of the world are given strength by our military actions.

OBL: "Hey muslim youth, the Americans want to kill you and your families!"

Bush: "Shock and awe is comin'! I call our troops 'crusaders', we're invading a muslim country that didn't attack us!"

It's not hard to spin that to whip up the impulsive masses.

 

I've said it before and I'll say it again; Bush has done more to promote terrorism and increase recruitment than Osama Bin Laden ever could have hoped to.

Get him out of office and pull our troops out of the middle east, and there goes half of the shit that they put on their recruitment fliers. "They'll find somethign else", but nothing as persuasive.

[El Karacho1647545492]

but rather we should look into various diplomatic efforts, economic options and sanctions if needed. these actions would also be far easier to do with other countries vs asking them to send troops/military support.

 

You clearly have a misguided idea of what diplomacy is. Diplomacy is a means by which a certain ends is achieved. Our specific endgame in this endeavor is to secure the safety of America from terrorist organizations. There's ways we can do this; soft power is a perceived influence. It is how people view America. In the Middle East, our values and culture is hated with a passion, thus eliminating our soft power.

Coercive diplomacy cannot work because we will not negotiate with terrorists. Even if we did negotiate with terrorists, there's nothing we can do to convince them to stop attacking us. We offer them no incentives, so therefore we must offer disincentives.

Subversive/covert action can work, but we have already placed our puppet government in Iraq who we're already trying to subvert. So that's obviously not going to work against the terrorists with no centralized governing body.

Economic sanctions are a blunt tool. You cannot target economic sanctions. When we placed economic sanctions on Saddam Hussein he simply shifted the burden onto his opponents, the Sunnis and the Kurds. He took what little resources he had and helped those who supported him and made the U.S. sanctions hurt the very people they were supposed to protect. Economic sanctions work only in special scenarios and are completely meaningless without a perception that the country doing the sanctioning has the will to use more forceful means.

The last and certainly not least part is the use of military force. It can either be used to support other actions (diplomatic relations, subversive action) or it can be used by itself. In this case, the terrorists do not even fear annihilation. Their purpose is to kill and be killed. They have no regard for civilian life, nor do they fight as we fight. If this were the American Revolution, we're the Redcoats and they're the Rebels. At this point, there's no possibility for any other action that military, it just sucks that we're stuck here by terrible leadership.

[Tractor]

http://www.thepeoplescube.com/images/Jihad_Against_TroopSurge.jpg

 

Evan

[Scotty2Hotty]

Either you violated a fairly significant law, or some one fed you a line of shit. It thought about this for a good half hour, thinking of why they would choose to cover up the only thing that stood to vindicate them and their war. Nothing made sense, except:

 

Nothing violated, there are WMD's and there's no line of shit. We'll keep it at that, just trust me on this one. I have no reason to fill you full of shit. WMD's are not used for a defensive purpose. They are a 1st STRIKE OFFENSIVE weapon, no more, no less. Chemical, biological, nuclear, however you want it, it's not a defensive weapon. Just think of it this way people, it had to be done sometime, and we just got the ball rolling. Just thank the Lord above your kids won't be going over to pound the ground in Iraq. We'll be there a while, along with Africa. If you read a little bit more, we have AFCOM set up aka African Command group. We're fighting terrorism one way or another if you believe it or not. 2 dead Al-Qaeda are 2 less terrorists that can jump aboard a plane and get in the USA. They've focised their attacks on the US Military, which is fine by me. We can answer back, innocent kids at day care, mom/dad at the office on their computer can't. I'd much rather they attack soldiers, marines, airmen, even seamen, because we are TRAINED to fight and shoot back. We have the equipment and the technology to answer their pussy bullshit tactics. Eye for an eye with them, but for us it's more like an eye for a leg and backbone we take.

[Scotty2Hotty]

 

Saddam Hussein he simply shifted the burden onto his opponents, the Sunnis and the Kurds. He took what little resources he had and helped those who supported him and made the U.S. sanctions hurt the very people they were supposed to protect.

Shia's and Shi'ites, he was Saddam Hussein al Tikriti aka a damn sunni. Sunni triangle extends up to Tikrit where I was in OIF 1, and that's where we caught him. The Sunni's are helped by Al-Qaeda, and the Shia/Shi'ites are backed up thanks to Iran. Iran has it's dirty hand in this mess, very covertly, and has for a second. The new generation of Iraqis are actually half way intelligent and will be figuring out, it's utter stupidity to fight and shit up their country. Granted you'll have the outsiders, but most want and need us there. If you've asked an Iraqi living there, that's the truth. Good or bad, they want/like us there, minus most the Sunni's. They got knocked out of power with the Ba'ath party back in 03', so they're pissed cause they don't have the $$$ or power like they used to. It's starting to become open to Kurds, Shia, Shi'ites, and lastly still Sunnis. The big difference in Shia/Shi'ite and Sunni is a man by the name of Ali. Read about it cause I don't want to tell the story. That's the biggest difference they have.

[HAOLE]

 

I've said it before and I'll say it again; Bush has done more to promote terrorism and increase recruitment than Osama Bin Laden ever could have hoped to.

Get him out of office and pull our troops out of the middle east, and there goes half of the shit that they put on their recruitment fliers. "They'll find somethign else", but nothing as persuasive.

 

I would say that the lack of guts in America (not referring to those who serve, but the general public opinion) has led us to a point where our country is nearly in effective at winning wars. All we are allowed to do is give people black eyes and make them made. Anytime someone says to take the gloves off we have every liberal in America screaming and crying about too much force. In a war their is no such thing. The point of waging war is to beat the opponent into total submission.

 

Look at Gulf War 1, we started taking out nearly the entire Iraqi Army on the highway, then the bleeding hearts start the trail of crocodile tears, and say we are using too much force. So we stop.... the problem could have been taken care of then.

[Conesmasher]

I would say that the lack of guts in America (not referring to those who serve, but the general public opinion) has led us to a point where our country is nearly in effective at winning wars. All we are allowed to do is give people black eyes and make them made. Anytime someone says to take the gloves off we have every liberal in America screaming and crying about too much force. In a war their is no such thing. The point of waging war is to beat the opponent into total submission.

 

Look at Gulf War 1, we started taking out nearly the entire Iraqi Army on the highway, then the bleeding hearts start the trail of crocodile tears, and say we are using too much force. So we stop.... the problem could have been taken care of then.

 

 

Simply put.....there aren't enough boots on the ground

 

We have roughly 140,000 troops out there, with one hand tied behind their backs

 

140,000 troops/1 hand behind each back = 70,000 troops

 

 

Most folks don't understand the implications of this entire series of events. It's like finding out about Hitler's ideas before the death camps.....but before he has a chance to act, we strike and people cry.

 

If we don't show we're willing to stay strong through the fight, we are IN TROUBLE.

[thorne]

To the "We shouldnt have been there in the first place" people...

 

Remember they attacked our country killed tons of people and change our lives and our way of life forever. We needed to do something.

 

Most countries lets say China. If a 911 style attack happened to them they would bomb the shit out of Iraq/Iran/Afgany then bounce the fuck out.

 

America took the liberty to go after the bad guy, and help the innocent people of the countries we invaded rebuild there country for a better life. 78 billion dollars does not matter. We were already hundreds of billion dollars in debt.

 

Name one country that would do what we do?

 

Now I agree, the plan is not working, our troops are dying, they are way under paid, but they did volunteer and knew what they were getting into. I am in no way shape or form talking down on soldiers or their worth of life. I have 8 friends all over the world now and one is back home with 8 bullets in him but survived.

 

 

ummmmm

Last I checked iraq did not bomb nor did they have WMD. Go educate yourself or at least don't vote next time.

[thorne]

redkneck-scott dude I'm not calling you a liar but I will say this. What gives me any reason to believe you that there are weapons. What qualification do you have to state that and have a backing to believe it. I could tell you my car runs 10's does that mean it does no. But Ic an asssure you over and over that it does and what parts I have are non of your worry. nor can I show slips.

 

Trust me on WMD is a ricer cop out man.

[Mattsn2o281]

Thorne, i got from scott's posts that he served over the for 3 years while all this was going down. I'd assume he is refering to the fact that he has witnessed it with his own eyes. ill leave it to him to confirm this, but thats what i got.

[Tractor]

I kinda like what Eric was saying on this topic about maybe there being WMD's, but we don't want anyone to know where they came from. I remember at least a couple of speeches that Bush made back when the Libs were really pounding the "we want proof of WMD's" talks where Bush said something like this "As for proof of WMD's they were a number of them found, but the details aren't for the world to know at this time." That is a very odd thing, but then again from a republicans point of view Bush has done some very odd things in his time in office that make us all nuts. Mostly things exactly like this. He says he's got proof, but won't prove it and call out the libs. He bends to the will of the libs all the time and works with them more than we'd like.

 

It wouldn't matter to me if there were nukes and they were "made in the USA" at least now Saddam doesn't have them. Besides its not like Bush gave them to him. His dad, Clinton, Regan, or any number of congressmen could have been involved over the last 20 to 30 years. Bottom line is we are working to correct the mistakes the UN, NATO and us have made over the last 60 years since the end of WWII. Its possible that they were more or less necessary mistakes to help in the defeat of the Russians.

The entire middle east was designed by the UN after the war and its a mess. What to do about it? Who knows. Isn't it ironic that the worlds oil lays under that mess. Kinda serves the UN right to have to deal with all this BS now.

 

For all we know the weapons have "made in france" stamped on them and are current models. We could be trying to help them save face for some reason. No clue and it doesn't make since to me, but I'm not a world leader.

 

Evan