Ohioan Civil Rights violated (not showing DL at Circuit City)

[TTQ B4U]

The law is clear that the initial request to search his bags is voluntary, but Ohio does have further Merchant Statutes that not only protect the store against with limited liability in the event of a mistake (given reasonable suspicion, etc..details and procedures are in place) but it gives them the right to temporarily detain someone who they have a reasonable belief has shoplifted.

 

They can then attempt to recover the merchandise, which obviously wasn't going to work, nor did it..... or call the cops. In this case, he called, so they didn't have to. Did they make it clear they believe he stole something....we don't know for fact either way, only that he says they didn't.....but he did give them options.....which they took #3....they let him call the cops...

 

We do know that he stated "Of course I knew what this was about, but I played dumb and pretended that I didn’t know what the problem was" he also states "I’ve dealt with these scare tactics at other stores in the past including other Circuit Cities, Best Buys and Guitar Centers."

 

....hmmmmm....sounds pretty fishy if you ask me.

 

If they followed procedure correctly (which will eventually come out) they were allowed to stop him from leaving the premises as they did until the temporary investigation was completed.....more clearly...the cops came and cleared up the matter.

 

Once the cop arrived, he had the right to search the bag as part of his investigation....which at that point was pretty clear that he was a shoplifting suspect.

 

Somewhere in the mix he attempted to discover this guys identity but was obviously not impressed with his quoting the law back at him and refusal to show his license. My guess is he was pissed and didn't believe the name and information he was given was accurate and instead, booked the guy on Obstruction vs letting him go for not having stolen anything.

 

I stand by my wifes comments since she's prosecuted these types of cases and has also defended the County (sheriff) on matters like this in her past world. He blew any credibility on going after the CC employees by his actions and ultimate arrest. It's a shot he may take, but doubtful he'll get anything.

 

Some of you need to read the comments in his blog, where people are stating the Ohio Revised Code.

 

One states that unless he is accused of shoplifting, they cannot search him or his property without consent. They didn't accuse him, and he didn't give consent. He was within his right to deny them anything.

[Devils Advocate]

glad to see people appreciate what me and my brothers give our lives for, maybe you should email the familes of soldiers who have died for this fucking country with your liberal views... why dont you keep the anti-american shit to yourself.. thanks

 

 

Did he say anything about hating america? Oh wait, no he didn't. Did he say anything negative about the military? Whoops, he didn't do that either.

 

 

Hey guess what... You're ignorant and stupid. Thanks for playing, there's a side exit where not many people will see you leaving in shame, feel free to take it.

[Mattsn2o281]

The law is clear that the initial request to search his bags is voluntary, but Ohio does have further Merchant Statutes that not only protect the store against with limited liability in the event of a mistake (given probably cause, etc..details and procedures are in place) but it gives them the right to temporarily detain someone who they have a reasonable belief has shoplifted.

 

They can then attempt to recover the merchandise, which obviously wasn't going to work, nor did it..... or call the cops. In this case, he called, so they didn't have to. Did they make it clear they believe he stole something....we don't know for fact either way, only that he says they didn't.....but he did give them options.....which they took #3....they let him call the cops...

 

We do know that he stated "Of course I knew what this was about, but I played dumb and pretended that I didn’t know what the problem was" he also states "I’ve dealt with these scare tactics at other stores in the past including other Circuit Cities, Best Buys and Guitar Centers."

 

....hmmmmm....sounds pretty fishy if you ask me.

 

If they followed procedure correctly (which will eventually come out) they were allowed to stop him from leaving the premises as they did until the temporary investigation was completed.....more clearly...the cops came and cleared up the matter.

 

Once the cop arrived, he had the right to search the bag as part of his investigation....which at that point was pretty clear that he was a shoplifting suspect.

 

Somewhere in the mix he attempted to discover this guys identity but was obviously not impressed with his quoting the law back at him and refusal to show his license. My guess is he was pissed and didn't believe the name and information he was given was accurate and instead, booked the guy on Obstruction vs letting him go for not having stolen anything.

 

I stand by my wifes comments since she's prosecuted these types of cases and has also defended the County (sheriff) on matters like this in her past world. He blew any credibility on going after the CC employees by his actions and ultimate arrest. It's a shot he may take, but doubtful he'll get anything.

 

Look man, i don't know how to make this any clearer, do this. go to a best buy, buy something and then as youre leaving they will ask to see your receipt and the contents of the bag. it's fucking annoying as hell, and i dont like the vibe i get from them while they do it. You can tell them to fuck off, and unless they have fucking proof that you in fact did steal something, they had best keep their mouth shut. If you wanna submit to it go for it, i always ask why, and they always say have a nice day.

 

I'm always the first to ask a cop why and what for he needs my id. you need to read the post applying to the orc about when and why you are compelled to provide your id. unless you are under investigation for a crime, or have basicly witnessed a crime, you do not have to disclose your identity, PERIOD. Even then, UNLESS YOU ARE OPERATING A MOTOR VEHICLE, YOU DONT HAVE TO SHOW YOUR LICENSE!!!!!!!

And the cop has to see evidene of a crime FIRST, before he can say that you are under an investigation. there was no crime commited, circut city had ZERO proof of a crime having been commited, and no reason to suspect there had been one. if had stolen something the dam door alarm would set it off. they have closed circut tv's all over every fucking inch of those stores, so to try and say he had removed something from the wrapper and removed the security devices is horseshit, and it probably wouldnt be in a bag anyway.

 

What this boils down to is a few powe hungry dickheads not knowing their role, and they got called on it hard. Again, there was no crime commited in the first place to even cause an investigation, just a bunch of piss poor assumptions. i glad to see someone stand up to this shit.

[Devils Advocate]

In ohio, the only information that holds up in court is what the officer knew at the time of the arrest. If he arrested you without cause and then found out a bunch of shit afterwards, none of it can be used. I learned about this in a class we were forced to attend as part of joining a fraternity, a campus lawyer detailed all of it for us. You've all seen cops lie to people to get them to admit to things before, this is no different. They rely on the fact that a ridiculous percentage of americans have absolutely no idea what their rights are/what the police are allowed to do/request.

 

Keep in mind when reading the following story: I was as respectful and levelheaded as humanly possible throughout all of this. I've always found that being courteous to people can get you much farther than being a jackass.

 

I was in Chicago in december of two thousand five for a halo tournament. We were in a hotel, and the person sharing the room with me was twenty one, so there were empty beer bottles in the room. We were being kinda loud, laughing and what not, because we were playing Halo. The hotel security guard came to our door, and once he saw the beer bottles, he called the police. When they got there, they asked who had been drinking. The guy who was over twenty one said he had, and everyone else said they hadnt. The cops then asked everyone for IDs, and I told them my name, date of birth, and address, which is the only thing Im required to give in that situation by law. I also asked for a breathalizer test to prove that I wasnt drinking, and thats when they got angry. They slammed me into a wall and cuffed me, yelling some shit about how I was "Some sort of lawyer smart-ass punk kid." They walked me out through the hotel lobby where about a hundred halo people were congregating, threw me in the car, and took me down to the station. Once they got me there and chained me to a bench in a holding cell, they tried to scare the crap out of me by telling me they could keep me in there for three days without a phone call or anything. Once they finally figured out that I knew my rights, hadn't been drinking, and wasn't going to "succumb to fear," they wrote me a bullshit "local ordinance violation" and took seventy five bucks in cash from my wallet. My court date was set for a few weeks later, when I would be back in ohio. I called about a week prior to my court date and asked the guy what would happen if I didnt show up. He told me that not showing up would be an admittance of guilt, that it wouldnt even go on any records outside of Rosemont, and that all they would do is keep my seventy five dollars.

 

 

If you're completely okay with this story and see no reason why people shouldnt do whatever police officers tell them, you're completely out of your fucking mind.

[Mattsn2o281]

If you're completely okay with this story and see no reason why people shouldnt do whatever police officers tell them, you're completely out of your fucking mind.

 

Amen.

[TTQ B4U]

I think it's been pretty clear that the bag search is voluntary. I'll let those here that are Police Officers chime in if they read this, but given the fact that the guy called in via the Emergency 911 phone system gives the cop clear rights to verify the identity of those involved in this emergency call.

 

There clearly "reasonable suspicion" that this guy may have been engaged in criminal activity otherwise he wouldn't have had been detained by store security and the situation blown to the proportion it was. The cop doesn't have to just take it at face value that he is telling him a real name. He was within the law to hold him either there on the spot or bring downtown until his identity has been verified.

 

He did state that he gave the receipt and bag over to the cop to search, which does constitute a personal search. A personal search that was requested by the officer in order to disclose evidence of criminal activity....which in itself is the beginning of an investigation that translates into Official Business....again, to which this guy agreed through his own actions of allowing the bag to be searched. :nutkick: :grin2:

 

In the end, sure the guy doesn't have to do shit...he can stand there like a mummy...but in the end, he attempted to delay the performance of the officer involved in official business, so he was charged accordingly. He wasn't arrested for not providing a DL....so stop beating that dead horse...he was charged with Obstruction. He purposely delayed clarifying his identity while in possession of the means to do so. So everyone can stand behind the fact that he doesn't have to provide his DL, but that doesn't prevent the officer from charging him as he did for purposely delaying an investigation.

 

The cop was trying to do his job. He's not going to try this guys case in a parking lot. Instead he chose get him off the streets into a controlled and safe environment, let CC get back to business and have the D/A and system do their thing......Smart move on the cops part. It's very, very unlikely due to the legal protections for both the office and the department that either will be prosecuted for anything.

 

Let's not forget we're only hearing his side of the story too.....a story from a guy who admits he's been in situations like this on several occasions....which is pretty strange in itself. Don't take this guys blog and actions to drum up internet support as gospel. I'm sure the cop asked the CC guys a question we're not hearing nor the associated answer.

 

I'm also pretty sure CC will have some type of video or at the very least employee testimony that provide "reasonable suspicion" and that's all they need to do what they did. I also believe given this guys background of being involve in these types of situations on a number of occasions, that CC and the Loss Prevention guys will be in the clear too.

 

-------------

The true reality of it is, the whole thing will never get to trial. So this guy can so-called "fight" all he wants for rights of the people, blah, blah, blah..... Unless the case makes it to trial and he wins, he's not really standing up for anyones rights or accomplishing anything beneficial to all those that are cheering him on. :doh:

 

Nothing official in the way of a victory will go on the books, thus he's just waisting the courts time and costing the taxpayers money as they are the ones to have to pay to defend the police/officials. So to all his supporters, thanks for spending the tax dollars of all the residents of Cuyahoga County :thumbdown Maybe he should apply his own "ethics", since he's an Ethical Hacker, to how he lives his life and not waste everyone's time.

 

 

Look man, i don't know how to make this any clearer, do this. go to a best buy, buy something and then as youre leaving they will ask to see your receipt and the contents of the bag. it's fucking annoying as hell, and i dont like the vibe i get from them while they do it. You can tell them to fuck off, and unless they have fucking proof that you in fact did steal something, they had best keep their mouth shut. If you wanna submit to it go for it, i always ask why, and they always say have a nice day.

 

I'm always the first to ask a cop why and what for he needs my id. you need to read the post applying to the orc about when and why you are compelled to provide your id. unless you are under investigation for a crime, or have basicly witnessed a crime, you do not have to disclose your identity, PERIOD. Even then, UNLESS YOU ARE OPERATING A MOTOR VEHICLE, YOU DONT HAVE TO SHOW YOUR LICENSE!!!!!!!

And the cop has to see evidene of a crime FIRST, before he can say that you are under an investigation. there was no crime commited, circut city had ZERO proof of a crime having been commited, and no reason to suspect there had been one. if had stolen something the dam door alarm would set it off. they have closed circut tv's all over every fucking inch of those stores, so to try and say he had removed something from the wrapper and removed the security devices is horseshit, and it probably wouldnt be in a bag anyway.

 

What this boils down to is a few powe hungry dickheads not knowing their role, and they got called on it hard. Again, there was no crime commited in the first place to even cause an investigation, just a bunch of piss poor assumptions. i glad to see someone stand up to this shit.

[thorne]

Here is the big deal. Thge big deal is I have rights provided to me to protect me. I am not freely going to just give those rights away. Why should I. If I have done nothing wrong then why am iu being treated like a crimnal. The more and more you surcumb to the powers at be when you are not required to the more and more they will expect from citizens.

 

Would you like a cop to anal search you because eh thinks you have drugs? Would you like to have your day delayed because some tool of a clerk fucked up. Why should i have to let him go threw my bag. What If I got a prescription for HIV shit or anything else in there thats private? Jo Blo shopping boy by the door can blow me. Its my business if I have not done anything wrong I'm going to give them shit.

 

I've walked away from so mnay of those buzzzing alarms its not funny. I had a manger follow me to the lot @ best buy when I bought my TV place his hand on me and tell me I had stolen some kinda of cable that I did not even have.

 

I had picked it up in the store laughed at the price and placed it back. The only thing extra I had in my bag was a couple of dvds I bought.

 

I let the manage know in a polite but stern tone he would not be searching me and if he laid a hand on me again I would take it as a act of agression and be forced to defend myself.

 

He turned around and walked away.

 

This was almost 5 years ago + when HD tv's were just starting to become big.

 

 

for you and Mensan...why would I give my Drivers License (DL) to the cop? Because I approach situations like this by asking myself some pretty basic questions.

 

Why would I not want to cooperate with a police officer that I called and simply give him my Drivers License? I mean, so I have a right to say no, doesn't mean it's going to get me anywhere. Why be afraid? Who gives a shit? What's going to happen to me? Why do you think doing so shows fear? What's to be afraid of? Obviously this kid and some here fear authority for some reason.

 

Let him do his job. It's not like holding it back from him is going to protect me from anything. My "rights" aren't in jeopardy, he's not a threat to me by taking it and using the information. Shit, the information you are stating to just give verbally is the same shit....unless you're out to hide something. I have nothing to hide by not giving him my DL. The cop was just trying to get a handle on the situation and who this guy in the car is and what the situation is about.

 

Please explain to me the big deal outside you just wanting to not do it for the sake of being difficult and hiding behind a "right" not to give it to him. Hell, he called the cops in the first place! I tend to approach things like this by being a bit more cooperative and find that helping the cops actually gets me what I want. It certainly didn't do him any favors to argue now did it? Perhaps if just simply helped the cop help him, he would be on with life.

 

Bottom line is I don't need any more drama in my life and know that putting up a fight, arguing and being resistant to things like this tends to not help. I'd rather achieve the goal than argue a point for the sake of an argument. Especially to a cop that I called.

 

I didn't have problem letting the cops run the s/n on my gun when I called them a few weeks back (when I thought my house was broken into) or running my DL in the system. No big deal and quite understandable really...and guess what...I had nothing to hide, they figured that out, know that now and my life has been smooth since. Case closed. Nice thing is my credibility is still high with them and should I see the two cops on the street on or off duty, then may perhaps remember me in a good light.

 

Re-reading the posters situation I laughed at his quote:

"Not being able to find the law in the books that states that a citizen must provide a driver’s license while walking through a parking lot, Officer Arroyo had to settle for “obstructing official business."

 

"He explained that I had been arrested for failure to produce my driver’s license. I asked him what would happen if I never learned to drive and didn’t have a driver’s license. After all, at the time that he arrested me I was standing on a sidewalk outside a Circuit City. I wasn’t driving a car, and even when I was seated in the Buick I was a back seat passenger. The officer never gave me a satisfactory answer to this question, but promised to explain the law to me after I was booked."

 

It doesn't take a rocket scientist to figure out the cop was being a bit sarcastic and to the point by stating layman's terms that he was being arrested for not showing his drivers license. It's very likely he was pissed that this stupid kid was being uncooperative for no real valid reason other than to give him a hard time. Again, give me a valid reason other than some "rights" bullshit. A common sense reason that is....it was pretty obvious that the kid was being uncooperative and "obstructing" the cop in his investigation right from the get-go. :gay:

 

Put yourself in the cops shoes...what would you do? You get called out to a situation which was created initially by the store employees who suspected a shoplifter....who have no reason to make shit up and give this kid a hard time....then when you get there (which likely isn't your first time), the kid in question, who called you out, gives you a hard time right from the very first question you have....geesh! :doh:

 

Just put his ass in the car, take him downtown and sort it out there. No sense in arguing on the street in an uncontrolled environment, disrupting everyone else's lives. Again, any fifth grader who's seen two episodes of COPS is going to tell you what's coming next.

 

 

 

 

The kid wasn't arrested or harassed without reason. He is innocent until proven guilty, but not cooperating with a cop like this wasn't going to net him anything other than a ride downtown and night with some of the finest citizens in the area He obviously doesn't mind either as he states he knows all about why the event didn't go down smoothly. He also seems to have some fucked up fear-of-authority for some reason. Perhaps he lacks control and power in his life and fears it from others. Who knows....sounds to me he got exactly what he was looking to get.

[Venture Guy]

my opinion:

 

who the hell cares. and who knows what REALLY happened here...and if he didnt steal anything..why fight...let them check your bag and go on with your life....

[TTQ B4U]

No one is asking you to give up your rights. By law if the store has Reasonable Suspicion, they can request to search your bags and even detain you until the police arrive. Unless you actually change the law, your actions aren't doing anything to support your cause. They are simply wasting time and money. :thumbdown

 

That's my big beef here...the guy is trying to fight a crusade not for the sake of changing the laws and actually doing any good, he's doing so because he got busted for Obstruction; plain and simple. :gay: I also believe based on the past history he outlined, that he has a chip on his shoulder for some reason. I mean that part is pretty clear.

 

Guys like that who go looking for trouble usually find it. Too bad he isn't going about things in a more productive manner. :doh: He's being a silly Drama Lama on the internet......and that's not going to build him any credibility as time goes on....but hey, it's his life and his business.

 

Here is the big deal. Thge big deal is I have rights provided to me to protect me. I am not freely going to just give those rights away. Why should I. If I have done nothing wrong then why am iu being treated like a crimnal. The more and more you surcumb to the powers at be when you are not required to the more and more they will expect from citizens.

 

You don't have to let them go through your bag. That's been made clear. If they don't have reasonable suspicion, then you're on your way and they won't bother you. This guys situation was very likely a little different.

 

Why should i have to let him go threw my bag. What If I got a prescription for HIV shit or anything else in there thats private? Jo Blo shopping boy by the door can blow me. Its my business if I have not done anything wrong I'm going to give them shit.

 

Sounds like the BB guy needs to study up on how to handle such a situation. I would have done the same thing.

 

I've walked away from so mnay of those buzzzing alarms its not funny. I had a manger follow me to the lot @ best buy when I bought my TV place his hand on me and tell me I had stolen some kinda of cable that I did not even have.

 

I had picked it up in the store laughed at the price and placed it back. The only thing extra I had in my bag was a couple of dvds I bought.

 

I let the manage know in a polite but stern tone he would not be searching me and if he laid a hand on me again I would take it as a act of agression and be forced to defend myself. He turned around and walked away.

[thorne]

Yeah this manager was a n00b you could tell.

[TTQ B4U]

that's not entirely true, even if you are arrested illegally, if you have warrants or other reasons to be charged further or held in custody, they can be legally acted upon in spite of the illegal arrest.

 

In ohio, the only information that holds up in court is what the officer knew at the time of the arrest. If he arrested you without cause and then found out a bunch of shit afterwards, none of it can be used.

[Cougar1647545494]

What I was told while working at CC, legally, we are not allowed to chase the customer outside the doors. We weren't even legally allowed to accuse anyone of stealing. We could ask to check their bags, but if they kept on walking. Well. The person kept on walking and that was pretty much it.

 

CC deserves to go in the dump.