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PRO Gun Show - Westland Mall - Dec 29-30

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RedRocket1647545505 Newbie

RedRocket1647545505

Posted
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yeah I'm worried it's going to knock me on my ass.... i only have 125lbs to keep me straight and i tried the buckshot once.... i had to have someone standing behind me

 

 

Bring your shotgun and a case of buckshot to the range when you go. Take someone along who can critique your shooting habits. 125lb isn't going to be your downfall when shooting. If your stance is good, and your technique is ok, so shall you be.

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Scotty2Hotty Rookie

Scotty2Hotty

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yeah I'm worried it's going to knock me on my ass.... i only have 125lbs to keep me straight and i tried the buckshot once.... i had to have someone standing behind me

There's no mercy with my mossberg 500 Tactical, fucker gave me a nice bruise after running 40 rounds of 3in Remington 00 Buckshot through it. I like staying new, but some used firearms are really a great price, and are well worth it too. You can save almost $200+ dollars by going used if you want. I like buying new because I know how many rounds I've shot, how I clean it, how much I clean it, and the basic care I give it. Don't be shocked to pay over $500 for a nice automatic handgun that's new. A revolver will be in the same range, but a little cheaper.

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copperhead Rookie

copperhead

Posted
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a 20 guage running low brass would be very easy to shoot

 

As for a handgun, I'm going to quote what I said in the thread that Scott linked:

 

To the threadstarter:

 

For a starter gun, especially for a lady, there are some things to keep in mind.

 

First off, if she is completely inaccurate, she can be easily discouraged. This means you want to get something that doesn't have much recoil. Heavier guns minimize felt recoil, as the gun itself takes some of the shock. Small and/or lightweight guns (such as polymer and compacts) are harder on the hands and make it more likely to be off target. Larger calibers also add to the recoil. I would recommend nothing larger than a 9mm to start, .22LR would be ideal. This also makes it cheaper to shoot.

 

There are .22 revolvers out there, you can't get much more reliable than that. For a semi-auto, there's the Walther p22 (the older ones weren't so reliable, new ones are great). The Rugers are also suppose to be pretty good, but I don't have any experiance with them.

 

There are some .380's out there that are good, not super common though. Try out the Bersa Thunder for that caliber.

 

As for 9mm, there are a million semi-auto's out there. So long as you don't get something cheap like a hi-point you will probably be fine.

 

Now, there are a million different opinions on what is good. Mine is that the best gun is the one that is the most comfortable for YOU (or in this case your wife). Go to Blackwing and rent rent rent until she finds out what she likes best, and stick with it. Just try to stick with fullsize, she will do better with that than a compact.

 

 

Now, for home defense you don't want to go with .22

.22 is a great way to learn though. Something to think about. I still suggest the Bersa Thunder. Beyond that, there are a zillion 9mm handguns out there, and for the most part they are all decent guns. Go to black wing sometime and rent everything till you find what's comfortable.

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RedRocket1647545505 Newbie

RedRocket1647545505

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a 20 guage running low brass would be very easy to shoot

 

As for a handgun, I'm going to quote what I said in the thread that Scott linked:

 

 

 

 

Now, for home defense you don't want to go with .22

.22 is a great way to learn though. Something to think about. I still suggest the Bersa Thunder. Beyond that, there are a zillion 9mm handguns out there, and for the most part they are all decent guns. Go to black wing sometime and rent everything till you find what's comfortable.

 

I was going to suggest this. I love mine, though, for being a .380, it's a snappy little S.O.B. That or possibly a KelTec P3AT

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Scotty2Hotty Rookie

Scotty2Hotty

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Compact 1911. Sure the .45 is a decent sized round, but it gets the point across.

Scott, dragknee, up for a trip to the powder room? I love the buzz I get from the spent powder displacing the atmosphere.

I have a good chunk of .45 to burn.

Come to a nice range, and go to Blackwing with me. I'm probably going on sunday after I take a trip to the gun show. Gimme a call.

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Jelloman4571647545499 Newbie

Jelloman4571647545499

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I went today, actually just got back from it. I will be going back again tomorrow.

 

In my opinion a Shotgun is not the ideal home defense weapon for a female. Too much bulk to try to get up and shoot some one with. A .38 or even a .22 would be just fine.

 

This is true to a sense. AS IN ALL SITUATIONS, it completely depends on the female shooting. My mother for example could easily use a shot gun. Hell after she left the military after 23 years I put a bet she could out shoot most of us.

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Nate1647545505 Newbie

Nate1647545505

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This is true to a sense. AS IN ALL SITUATIONS, it completely depends on the female shooting. My mother for example could easily use a shot gun. Hell after she left the military after 23 years I put a bet she could out shoot most of us.

 

Most self defense shotguns are made for CQB though.

 

9mm or .22 I would use if I were in close quarters (apartment, condo) for self defense. There is such thing as over penetration......you don't have to be black from the waist down, either!

 

I decided to go .45, as I found out there are routine escapes from the Wabash (Mental) Hospital.

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LJ Newbie

LJ

Posted
Posted
The guys I shoot with laugh at your guys for thinking they can shoot.

 

 

Doubtful... I shoot with a bunch of pro shooters, they're all my dad's friends. Plus I used to shoot pro junior class sporting clays

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Boost-n-Juice Newbie

Boost-n-Juice

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"IF YOU HAVE TO CHOOSE ONLY ONE WEAPON FOR HOME DEFENSE.....

 

Pepper sprays and slingshots will work just fine to infuriate an enemy...might as well build a catapult and hurl your stored food, and when that runs out, fling them your wife and kids. So ultimately, we’re talking guns for home defense.

 

(NOTE: What I am going to say about firearms is for defensive use, not offensive use, and within the narrow view of Home Defense only. This is not to say that other weapons would not be very useful for other purposes, or that other weapons could not be used for Home Defense! For those who do NOT already own firearms, and only wish one (1) weapon for Home Defense only. Personally, I believe the more, the merrier. The lowly .22 Long Rifle is incredibly useful for survival, as are the newer spring-powered air rifles that can attain 1000 fps in .17 caliber. But "survival" is not the same as "defense.")

 

The primary object in home defense is to hit the target while avoiding such power and penetration that unintended victims are not hit. Obviously, if you are familiar with and have firearms, you are going to use what you have. But if you don’t have a firearm and are going to buy one (1) for home defense, I recommend a shotgun. But not just any shotgun. Most common shotguns are 12 gauge waterfowl guns with long, full choke barrels. They are unwieldy in confined spaces, more powerful than required, overly noisy in confined spaces, and "kick" too much for novice shooters.

 

A 12 gauge "riot" shotgun fired in a house produces an incredibly deafening blast!

http://www.endtimesreport.com/pictures/riot_shotgun.jpg

 

Twelve gauge "riot" shotguns with folding stocks are a particular problem with the stock unfolded. The hard synthetic stock is straight or slightly raised toward the front, not sloped downward toward the action. When the shotgun is fired, the shotgun raises in recoil, and the hard synthetic stock seems to jump straight up into your cheekbone with a teeth rattling jolt. A softer cheek piece is needed, and it should be black or dark grey to match the stock and sturdy closed cell foam, so it will not hold water. The answer? Water pipe insulation tubing! The tubing is 3/8" thick foam, so it is thin enough to allow the stock to fold in the normal manner, yet thick enough to provide some cushioning from the brutal recoil when used unfolded.

 

Below is a 4" long piece of 3/4" pipe insulation glued to the top of the folding butt stock using "Household Goop." A channel was cut out of the round pipe insulation (as shown) for a good fit. The 3/8" insulation makes a soft cheek piece, the shotgun can be fired without the feeling your teeth are going to rattle loose, and the stock still folds up tight against the action.

http://www.endtimesreport.com/pictures/riot_shotgun2.jpg

 

As women and older children could be using this home defense shotgun, bulk, weight, recoil and noise are definitely factors to consider. Thus, a .410 bore shotgun is a great choice. A 3 inch .410 shot shell fires 3/4 ounce of shot at 1100 feet per second, resulting in approximately 800 foot pounds of energy at the muzzle, and a 2 ½" .410 with ½ ounce of shot produces approximately 600 foot pounds at the muzzle. The delivered energy at the defense ranges considered here are greater than a .357 Magnum revolver cartridge, but the longer barrel and greater weight of the shotgun results in less than half the noise and recoil. More important, the shot pattern is about 8 inches in diameter at 20 feet (full choke), and does not generally penetrate a wall, whereas a .357 Mag bullet pierces walls easily...and unintended victims on the other side.

 

In the close confines of home defense, a small dot laser light has limited usefulness. I mounted a 1" tube light with 8 super-bright LED's and a tail button switch. In the dark, the LED light is more than enough...if the target is lit up, it will be hit. The nice wide, non-marring clamp is model #SMC-1100 from http://www.allenslaw.com .

http://www.endtimesreport.com/pictures/HS410_light.jpg

 

(There are those who will claim that the lowly .410 shot shell is too underpowered, even less than a .357 Magnum revolver. They are making their judgment based on recoil - comparing a .357 Magnum revolver versus a .410 shotgun. Bad comparison, as a full length shotgun is heavier and held by two hands. I've got a .45 Colt/.410 derringer: recoil with a 2 1/2" .410 is extremely heavy, far worse than with a .357 Magnum derringer, and stronger than with the .45 Colt; recoil with a full length 3" Magnum .410 shot shell is fearsome enough to make just hanging onto the derringer extremely difficult. That recoil is easily tamed by the weight and length of a .410 shotgun.)

 

Of course home defense means more than defense against two legged creature. In any breakdown of civilization, a weapon like a shotgun becomes critical. Pet dogs are abandoned, join in packs and quickly become feral. The can, and do, attack domestic animals, pets, and are even a danger to children. Raccoons can get into a chicken coop and kill a flock very quickly. Rabid dogs are not uncommon in a societal disaster. These must be dispatched quickly, yet they are a moving target and hard to hit. This is where a shotgun really shines, as the pattern of shot is easier to put on target than a single bullet fired by someone shaking under extreme anxiety and stress, and repeat shots are more likely to put additional pellets into the target zone. A .410 bore, 3" magnum with #4 pellets is up to the task -- at reasonable ranges. Don't think these are 100 yard range weapons!

 

Hunting for food may well be necessary in the future. Small birds such as quail can be taken with a 2 ½" .410, larger birds with a 3" magnum, and game up to deer (at fairly close ranges) taken with a .410 slug load.

 

THE BEST HOME DEFENSE .410 SHOTGUN?

http://www.endtimesreport.com/pictures/HS410.jpg

One excellent .410 bore shotgun for home defense was actually designed specifically for that task...wonder of wonders. The Mossberg HS410 (the "HS" an acronym for "Home Security", model #50359) is a 6 shot pump action shotgun with an 18 ½" barrel having a spreader choke, ideal for close action shooting in home defense situations. The stock is synthetic and the right length of pull for women and older children (but still works with large men), the action extremely rugged and reliable, and the short length makes it very handy in confined spaces. The price? About $360.00

 

Now there is another excellent .410 bore shotgun on the market which may well be as good as or better than the Mossberg HS410 - the SAIGA .410 SHOTGUN. The cost of the Saiga is only about $270.00 - delivered, in 2005. It is an adaptation of the Kalashnikov designed AK-47 designed to fire .410 Magnum shot shells, has a semi-automatic action, and it comes with two magazines. With its 19" barrel, it would be handy in confined places, and it also comes with two choke tubes, increasing its versatility. The rate of fire would be better than with the Mossberg, and reliability is reportedly extremely high, but as with everything there are other factors to consider: A semi-auto action is less tolerant of loads than a slide action such as the Mossberg, so reloading for the Saiga requires more care and testing to be certain of reliable feeding. More information on the Saiga .410 shotgun can be found at http://www.weareguns.com/saiga.html

 

http://www.endtimesreport.com/pictures/saiga410-1.jpg

An additional .410 shotgun which some may want to consider is the Winchester lever action 9410, a variation of the venerable Winchester 94 lever action first introduced on January 1, 1895. In some variations, it holds 9 rounds of 2 1/2" shells in a very long tubular magazine, but the overall length is not conducive to easy handling in a home as compared with the overall length of either the Saiga or the Mossberg HS410. The 9410 is not chambered for the 3" Magnum .410 shell. Loading a tubular magazine is slower than simply changing magazines as with the Saiga, and it costs more than the Saiga. Nevertheless, there are those who love lever actions, and this is the only one of which I am aware that is chambered for .410 shotshells. http://www.cdnnsports.com has both the Saiga semi-auto and Winchester 9410 lever action at very competitive prices.

 

One lonely .410 shotgun will not suffice as complete home defense against a determined band armed with 7.62 x 39 mm AK-47's. But that is not the issue here. Either the Mossberg HS410 or the Saiga .410 will provide deterrence against such attacks, and time is always on your side in any conflict: given resistance, most attackers will give up and go on to easier pickings. Against a lesser attack, either shotgun should be equal to the task at hand, and far better than nothing at all.

 

If you already have a good selection of home defense weapons, make sure you can reload for all of them. Ammo will make great barter stock in the future. The Book "Survival Reloading," includes reloading data for just about any cartridge (not shot shells) you would ever encounter, using hand tools or bench tools, and with only three different smokeless powders, so you can stockpile and be covered with whatever comes your way.

 

 

.410 BORE SHOT SHELL AMMO

 

Surprisingly, 3" .410 bore shot shells cost twice as much as the much larger and more common 12 gauge shotgun shells, being priced at about $8 per box of 25. For the purpose of home defense, one does not need to have an armory full of ammo, though. I would recommend at least four (4) boxes of 3" .410's and four (4) boxes of 2 ½" .410 shells at a minimum, all with #4 shot. Those who are smart would also have a simple reloading kit for .410 and some reloading components as well.

 

Remember that I wrote above that one advantage of the .410 is a lack of penetration? That can also be a disadvantage if you don’t know where to aim. Number 4 shot is definitely not going to penetrate body armor, and many intruders now wear such readily available equipment. One advantage of a shotgun that can be used to offset that factor, however, is the very pattern that makes precise aiming not so critical: shoot at the face. It is unprotected, and even a visor won’t help much. At longer ranges even a few pellets in the cheeks will discourage a determined opponent, ‘cause it hurts, and they will know you are as intent on hurting them as they are intent on hurting you. Turnabout is fair play! "Aim" with a shotgun means looking down the barrel and seeing the front sight...there usually isn’t a rear sight. The target is placed on top of the sight for the pellet pattern to strike correctly on bird sized game. On larger game, such as a feral dog, aim at the bottom of the body and the shot pattern should be in the chest area. If shooting at longer ranges, remember that small sized shot lacks mass and being circular has a poor ballistic coefficient, so it drops about 8 inches from line of sight at about 50 yards, so aim a little higher on the target.

 

HANDGUNS FOR SELF DEFENSE

 

The great debate regarding handguns for self defense usually comes down to the subjective issue of "stopping power." I used the word "subjective" deliberately. There are those who cite military experiments (Gen. Hatcher) as "proving" that only .45 caliber handgun bullets as having acceptable stopping power usually do not mention that the bullets used were "hardball," non expanding round nose bullets conforming to the Geneva Convention guidelines. A 185 grain, .452" round nose bullet fired from a 1911 Colt in .45 ACP does not "cut" a .45" hole in the "target," but rather punctures a .45" hole because of the round nose. And in many cases that non expanding bullet has too much penetration for home defense, so it does not transfer all of its energy to the first "target." Often there is sufficient penetration to go through a wall behind the first target and endanger an innocent. The trick, then, is to obtain at least .45" expansion with full transfer of deliverable energy within the body of the first "target," with no excessive penetration."

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Boost-n-Juice Newbie

Boost-n-Juice

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"http://www.endtimesreport.com/pictures/exp_38HBWC.jpg

Sufficient "stopping power" for home defense can be obtained with a 0.357" bullet if it is properly chosen and reloaded to acceptable velocities. The photo above shows the results of tests using a Speer .357" hollow base wadcutter - loaded backwards - with the full huge hollowpoint exposed. At the extreme left above is a .38 S&W cartridge with a Speer 38 HBWC loaded backwards, and at right is a .38 Special with the same bullet. The load was 3.0 grains of Red Dot, for a "real world" velocity of over 820 fps in a 3" barrel. Recoil was extremely mild and the load is suitable even for old top-break .38 S&W's.

 

Bullet #1 was loaded with the hollow base down, as normal. Penetration was far too great and there was no expansion. This loading is unacceptable for home defense.

 

Bullet #2 was loaded backward, but the bullet hit solid bone. There was no "fluid" to effect an opening of the hollow cavity, so the cavity collapsed and the bullet nose "self forged" into a spire point. Expansion was to 0.625" with very sharp cutting edges, and penetration was not excessive.

 

Bullet #3 was loaded backward and fired into fluid with no solid object hit (a "gut shot"). Hydraulic effect in the hollow cavity resulted in expansion to 0.694", and penetration was 6". The hydrostatic shock of this bullet is incredible, and there was full transfer of 200 ft. lbs of energy within 6" of bullet impact travel.

 

Bullet #4 was loaded backward and first hit soft tissue and fluid, then hit hard bone. The hydraulic effect opened the hollow cavity which was then further expanded by contact with a hard object. Expansion was to 0.800" with sharp cutting edges. This is almost twice the diameter of a .45 ACP bullet - and the sharp edges combined with the rotational aspect imparted by the rifling had a cutting power not possible with a non expanding round nose 0.452" bullet at the same velocity.

 

Properly loaded, even an ancient top break .38 S&W has adequate "stopping power" for home defense. "Properly loaded" includes overall cartridge length. There is no ogive on the full-diameter hollow base wadcutter loaded backwards, but revolver chambers have a "step" in the forward portion of the cylinder for the bullet. The bullets must be seated deeply enough to slightly enter the chamber fully without resistance. As individual handguns have different specifications for chamber dimensions, the loaded cartridges must be tried in each chamber to obtain the correct seating depth. That is why the seating depth of the bullets in the cartridges shown above is not the same.

 

Loaded into a .38 Special case to velocities exceeding 950 fps, expansion of the backwards-loaded hollow base wadcutter is spectacular, often resulting in considerable bullet fragmentation. For home defense, however, the higher velocity is not needed, as it results in considerably higher recoil and noise, neither of which is desirable when fired from a small handgun fired in the confines of a closed room."

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