A realistic view of the big 3.

[Dweezel]

I stole this from H.org, and it's to the most accurate thing i've ever read about the American auto industry

Good Evening,

Below is an editorial written this morning concerning the current situation in Washington with the Big Three Domestic Automakers. I couldn't have said it better myself. This Ford dealer is from Pittsburgh . Please take the time to read. Forward to whomever it might make a difference.

Something to post in the waiting room or to give to customers who have in inaccurate perception of what is going on regarding the auto bridge loans the Big Three are requesting.

------------------------------------------

Editor:

As I watched the coverage of the fate of the U.S. auto industry, one alarming and frustrating fact hits me right between the eyes. The fate of our nation's economic survival is in the hands of some congressmen who are completely out of touch and act without knowledge of an industry that affects almost every person in our nation. The same lack of knowledge is shared with many journalists whom are irresponsible when influencing the opinion of millions of viewers.

Sen. Richard Shelby of Alabama has doomed the industry, calling it a dinosaur. No Mr. Shelby, you are the dinosaur, with ideas stuck in the '70s, '80s and '90s. You and the uninformed journalist and senators that hold onto myths that are not relevant in today's world.

When you say that the Big Three build vehicles nobody wants to buy, you must have overlooked that GM outsold Toyota by about 1.2 million vehicles in the U.S. and Ford outsold Honda by 850,000 and Nissan by 1.2 million in the U.S. GM was the world's No. 1 automaker beating Toyota by 3,000 units.

When you claim inferior quality comes from the Big Three, did you realize that Chevy makes the Malibu and Ford makes the Fusion that were both rated over the Camry and Accord by J.D. Power independent survey on initial quality? Did you bother to read the Consumer Report that rated Ford on par with good Japanese automakers.

Did you realize Big Three's gas guzzlers include the 33 mpg Malibu that beats the Accord. And for '09 Ford introduces the Hybrid Fusion whose 39 mpg is the best midsize, beating the Camry Hybrid. Ford's Focus beats the Corolla and Chevy's Cobalt beats the Civic.

When you ask how many times are we going to bail them out you must be referring to 1980. The only Big Three bailout was Chrysler, who paid back $1 billion, plus interest. GM and Ford have never received government aid.

When you criticize the Big Three for building so many pickups, surely you've noticed the attempts Toyota and Nissan have made spending billions to try to get a piece of that pie. Perhaps it bothers you that for 31 straight years Ford's F-Series has been the best selling vehicle. Ford and GM have dominated this market and when you see the new '09 F-150 you'll agree this won't change soon.

Did you realize that both GM and Ford offer more hybrid models than Nissan or Honda. Between 2005 and 2007, Ford alone has invested more than $22 billion in research and development of technologies such as Eco Boost, flex fuel, clean diesel, hybrids, plug in hybrids and hydrogen cars.

It's 2008 and the quality of the vehicles coming out of Detroit are once again the best in the world.

Perhaps Sen. Shelby isn't really that blind. Maybe he realizes the quality shift to American. Maybe it's the fact that his state of Alabama has given so much to land factories from Honda, Hyundai and Mercedes Benz that he is more concerned about their continued growth than he is about the people of our country. Sen. Shelby's disdain for "government subsidies" is very hypocritical. In the early '90s he was the driving force behind a $253 million incentive package to Mercedes. Plus, Alabama agreed to purchase 2,500 vehicles from Mercedes. While the bridge loan the Big Three is requesting will be paid back, Alabama 's $180,000-plus per job was pure incentive. Sen. Shelby, not only are you out of touch, you are a self-serving hypocrite, who is prepared to ruin our nation because of lack of knowledge and lack of due diligence in making your opinions and decisions.

After 9/11, the Detroit Three and Harley Davidson gave $40 million-plus emergency vehicles to the recovery efforts. What was given to the 9/11 relief effort by the Asian and European Auto Manufactures? $0 Nada. Zip!

We live in a world of free trade, world economy and we have not been able to produce products as cost efficiently. While the governments of other auto producing nations subsidize their automakers, our government may be ready to force its demise. While our automakers have paid union wages, benefits and legacy debt, our Asian competitors employ cheap la bor. We are at an extreme disadvantage in production cost. Although many UAW concessions begin in 2010, many lawmakers think it's not enough.

Some point the blame to corporate management. I would like to speak of Ford Motor Co. The company has streamlined by reducing our workforce by 51,000 since 2005, closing 17 plants and cutting expenses. Product and future product is excellent and the company is focused on one Ford. This is a company poised for success. Ford product quality and corporate management have improved light years since the nightmare of Jacques Nasser. Thank you Alan Mulally and the best auto company management team in the business.

The financial collapse caused by the secondary mortgage fiasco and the greed of Wall Street has led to a $700 billion bailout of the industry that created the problem. AIG spent nearly $1 million on three company excursions to lavish resorts and hunting destinations. Paulson is saying no to $250 billion foreclosure relief and the whole thing is a mess. So when the Big Three ask for 4 percent of that of the $700 billion, $25 billion to save the country's largest industry, there is obviously oppositions. But does it make sense to reward the culprits of the problem with $700 billion unconditionally, and ignore the victims?

As a Ford dealer, I feel our portion of the $25 billion will never be touched and is not necessary. Fo rd currently has $29 billion of liquidity. However, the effect of a bankruptcy by GM will hurt the suppliers we all do business with. A Chapter 11 bankruptcy by any manufacture would cost retirees their health care and retirements. Chances are GM would recover from Chapter 11 with a better business plan with much less expense. So who foots the bill if GM or all three go Chapter 11? All that extra health care, unemployment, loss of tax base and some forgiven debt goes back to the taxpayer, us. With no chance of repayment, this would be much worse than a loan with the intent of repayment.

So while it is debatable whether a loan or Chapter 11 is better for the Big Three, a $25 billion loan is definitely better for the taxpayers and the economy of our country.

So I'll end where I began on the quality of the products of Detroit . Before you, Mr. or Ms. Journalist continue to misinform the American public and turn them against one of the great industries that helped build this nation, I must ask you one question. Before you, Mr. or Madam Congressman vote to end health care and retirement benefits for 1 million retirees, eliminate 2.5 million of our nation's jobs, lose the technology that will lead us in the future and create an economic disaster including hundreds of billions of tax dollars lost, I ask this question not in the rhetorical sense. I ask it in the sincere, literal way. Can you tell me, have you driven a Ford lately?

Jim Jackson

Elkins

---------------------------------------------------

[Dweezel]

because their getting killer tax breaks. You seriously need to look into what all they are recieving in the way of breaks, gifts, and free operating costs. they're being paid to be here by more local govt's, be it state or local.

[Moto-Brian]

Sen. Richard Shelby of Alabama has doomed the industry, calling it a dinosaur. No Mr. Shelby, you are the dinosaur, with ideas stuck in the '70s, '80s and '90s. You and the uninformed journalist and senators that hold onto myths that are not relevant in today's world.

It is a dinosaur. The way they manage, the way they utilize unions and the way they pay their employees is antique in practice. It is because of the way they MIS-MANAGED their affairs that has lead to what they are in right now. The way they make cars may not be old school, but many of the things they rest their ideas on are...

When you say that the Big Three build vehicles nobody wants to buy, you must have overlooked that GM outsold Toyota by about 1.2 million vehicles in the U.S. and Ford outsold Honda by 850,000 and Nissan by 1.2 million in the U.S. GM was the world's No. 1 automaker beating Toyota by 3,000 units.

Numbers can be used to make any point. GM sells more cars under that umbrella than any other car manufacturer in the world. That holds GMC, Chevy, Pontiac, Buick, Hummer, Saab, Saturn, etc.,etc. There's a lot of numbers being shuffled to make that point. Same with Ford...

The thing is that the Japanese companies are pulling customers from the Big 3 due to a lot of things. Toyota sells in this country under Lexus and Toyota. Nissan is Nissan and Infiniti. Honda is Acura and Honda.

Ask why the fact that Honda motors are in the Saturn Aura cars...

When you claim inferior quality comes from the Big Three, did you realize that Chevy makes the Malibu and Ford makes the Fusion that were both rated over the Camry and Accord by J.D. Power independent survey on initial quality? Did you bother to read the Consumer Report that rated Ford on par with good Japanese automakers.

Initial quality is somewhat grey in terms of how they judge it. What is their ranking after say, 10 years. Say, after 80k miles... JD Powers is stupid anyways. It is a deal where customers rank their feelings. It can be slanted to work both ways...

Did you realize Big Three's gas guzzlers include the 33 mpg Malibu that beats the Accord. And for '09 Ford introduces the Hybrid Fusion whose 39 mpg is the best midsize, beating the Camry Hybrid. Ford's Focus beats the Corolla and Chevy's Cobalt beats the Civic.

Again, misleading numbers here...

When you criticize the Big Three for building so many pickups, surely you've noticed the attempts Toyota and Nissan have made spending billions to try to get a piece of that pie. Perhaps it bothers you that for 31 straight years Ford's F-Series has been the best selling vehicle. Ford and GM have dominated this market and when you see the new '09 F-150 you'll agree this won't change soon.

What was being said was that they tend to favor building trucks. It's no secret that the truck market is out of control. People buying trucks for everyday use when they were initially built for working. The market for trucks is at a point where the truck I bought was almost $50k. Know what kind of luxury car I could have bought with that coin?

The Japanese see this as a market they would like to be in and build towards. Where they are now allows them to expand. It isn't because they think it is a dumb category to be in - they view it as a way to expand their foot print in the market... This guy is twisting words...

Did you realize that both GM and Ford offer more hybrid models than Nissan or Honda. Between 2005 and 2007, Ford alone has invested more than $22 billion in research and development of technologies such as Eco Boost, flex fuel, clean diesel, hybrids, plug in hybrids and hydrogen cars.

While true, they do not offer as many overall fuel efficient cars. Who cares if they offer a Hybrid Escalade? The new Volt (Or whatever it is called) is going to be a flop. A $40k electric car? Are you serious? They are going to get this car out AFTER the Japanese get something better out first. And cheaper... Watch out for the Hydrogen based Honda that is already in the production steps...

I think what Chevy is doing with E85 is great. I think it is the right step and a noble one. However, overall, I think GM is too late to the party and need to focus on what really matters...

After 9/11, the Detroit Three and Harley Davidson gave $40 million-plus emergency vehicles to the recovery efforts. What was given to the 9/11 relief effort by the Asian and European Auto Manufactures? $0 Nada. Zip!

So, because they donated and gave money in that time, it is why we should buy from them? This was an American based attack and the American based companies gave to the cause. That's cool. While I think of Toyota and Honda as more American in the fact that they employ a LOT of Americans and build American cars here, I am not pissed that they didn't give. If that is really true...

We live in a world of free trade, world economy and we have not been able to produce products as cost efficiently. While the governments of other auto producing nations subsidize their automakers, our government may be ready to force its demise. While our automakers have paid union wages, benefits and legacy debt, our Asian competitors employ cheap labor. We are at an extreme disadvantage in production cost. Although many UAW concessions begin in 2010, many lawmakers think it's not enough.

They enjoy cheap labor because they DON'T have unions. Unions are going to be the reasoning behind the fall of these car companies right now. I'm all for getting as much money as you can, but when has it EVER made sense to pay a car guy twice as much as what he is worth? For a skill that will help them only within the car assembly industry. What happens when that person goes into the real world work force and has no education or trade skills that will assist in what is needed outside their current industry?

Some point the blame to corporate management. I would like to speak of Ford Motor Co. The company has streamlined by reducing our workforce by 51,000 since 2005, closing 17 plants and cutting expenses. Product and future product is excellent and the company is focused on one Ford. This is a company poised for success. Ford product quality and corporate management have improved light years since the nightmare of Jacques Nasser. Thank you Alan Mulally and the best auto company management team in the business.

Streamline? Sure. However, I have a personal friend who is double dipping. A common thing from GM and other employees. He was from GM. He is making over $50k from Chevy after he has retired. He is currently working at another factory making over $50k there. Does that make any sense to you?

How about the fact that these packages often termed "cradle to the grave" that are WAY over what is sensible. The Government asking them to make cuts and for these people to take a little less is only fair. But, they feel they earned it and it is what they were told they would get. Many factory workers are pissed that there are kids coming into the factories and getting $14 to do the same job they did for $40 plus. They feel betrayed and upset that they are losing out to these wages. Why?

The financial collapse caused by the secondary mortgage fiasco and the greed of Wall Street has led to a $700 billion bailout of the industry that created the problem. AIG spent nearly $1 million on three company excursions to lavish resorts and hunting destinations. Paulson is saying no to $250 billion foreclosure relief and the whole thing is a mess. So when the Big Three ask for 4 percent of that of the $700 billion, $25 billion to save the country's largest industry, there is obviously oppositions. But does it make sense to reward the culprits of the problem with $700 billion unconditionally, and ignore the victims?

The financial issues are alot to do with the fact that people over extended themselves and couldn't pay for what they borrowed. The banks take a hit. The amounts of people who have foreclosed on their mortgages is staggering. Why not blame stupid people for the problems? The banks have been hit hard. Sure, it is some of their own doing. Maybe they need to make financing and loan applications stronger and more strick. I think you will see these happen. They have already. Banks are not approving loans like they used to for items like cars, houses, etc. They have been making changes... It's easy for the car people to be pissed and make up reasons why they are deserving. They don't see what the problem is.

A lot of my family is in the factory end of things. They work at GM in a few towns around here. Some are in factories reliant on the car industry and are looking at a big question mark as to their future. It pains me. Hell, my brother is sitting right now wondering if he'll have a job in 2009. However, he has an education from a college in Findlay and can HOPEFULLY fall back on that. However, the wages he has made over the years isn't going to be adequate for what he has or how he lives.

I think the deal is simple. American car companies need to make changes. BIG changes. Quit bitching as to how they compete against the Japanese. Hell, the Koreans are making a damn hard push with companies like Hyundai, etc. All in all, if they don't make the needed changes and cannot look at it with open minds, they are going to die off.

I think they will sell off parts. GM may sell off Cadillac, etc. Whatever. But, I think changes are going to happen and maybe they will see the light and go forward and get stronger... I hope so.

Edited December 15, 2008 by Desmo-Brian

[Moto-Brian]

because their getting killer tax breaks. You seriously need to look into what all they are recieving in the way of breaks, gifts, and free operating costs. they're being paid to be here by more local govt's, be it state or local.

Again, the Japanese don't do unions like we have in the American sector. That alone is a big issue. Care to explain why it has got to the point it has?

The big 3 are also building a SHIT pile of stuff outside the US to relieve costs. They still are bleeding. Hell, I heard the amount was near $2k for every car sold that goes into the pension funds for GM... That's ridiculous...

[Disclaimer]

Everyone keeps blaming the unions... ALL this stuff was collectively bargained "in good faith". So, why is it the unions fault that GM, Ford, and DCM can't make the promises they've agreed to? I don't know why everyone wants to punish the blue collar people during the famine when they don't share in the feast.

If you were promised a pension, and you're relying on it, why is it your fault? How pissed would you be if you contributed to your 401k and the gov't decides we need to pay down debt and uses SS money and taps into your personal 401k you're relying on to do it?

And the wage thing - UAW members don't make $40/hr, they don't even make $30/hr (unless you want to factor in overtime and shift premiums). A common misconception that is totally untrue.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Wzd8p7HzDjg

Edited December 15, 2008 by JRMMiii

[f4isvt]

the amazing thing about toyota almost beating out gm is toyota has 3 brands toyota lexus and scion. Gm has multiple brands pontiac, chevy, hummer, gmc, saab, buick, cadillac, and saturn.

[Moto-Brian]

Everyone keeps blaming the unions... ALL this stuff was collectively bargained "in good faith". So, why is it the unions fault that GM, Ford, and DCM can't make the promises they've agreed to? I don't know why everyone wants to punish the blue collar people during the famine when they don't share in the feast.

If you were promised a pension, and you're relying on it, why is it your fault? How pissed would you be if you contributed to your 401k and the gov't decides we need to pay down debt and uses SS money and taps into your personal 401k you're relying on to do it?

And the wage thing - UAW members don't make $40/hr, they don't even make $30/hr (unless you want to factor in overtime and shift premiums). A common misconception that is totally untrue.

I can show you where a guy makes $40 plus. When you factor in benefits and such, it's a boat load...

The unions are what fight for the wages and the pensions and such. If they were gone, it would be a deal like the Japanese have and you work for a set amount and if it sucks to you, go elsewhere.

I understand being promised something and expecting it, but be realistic here. You have to understand it is something that is so far out of hand it isn't ever going to be corrected.

What happens if they file for bancruptcy? Will that make it better? The bottom line is that the change needs to occur. How it happens is something that needs drawn out, but everyone is going to have to take a hit.

That guy I know getting $50k isn't going to be too hurt if he gets $40k... Get my meaning?

[Moto-Brian]

the amazing thing about toyota almost beating out gm is toyota has 3 brands toyota lexus and scion. Gm has multiple brands pontiac, chevy, hummer, gmc, saab, buick, cadillac, and saturn.

Exactly what I posted in my response to the first post. The thing is that numbers can be used to ANYONE's advantage. The bottom line here is that the big three are bleeding and the Japanese are not. There's got to be a way to solve it.

The fact is that the unions can stay if so desired, but in today's age, they really aren't needed...

[f4isvt]

Toyota and Honda are still the most american cars on the road. I dont know why everyone insits on calling them japanese. My f150 was made in canada thats real American there. Tundra's are produced in texas and I believe kentucky.

[Disclaimer]

Let’s start with the numbers. The $73-an-hour figure comes from the car companies themselves. As part of their public relations strategy during labor negotiations, the companies put out various charts and reports explaining what they paid their workers. Wall Street analysts have done similar calculations. The calculations show, accurately enough, that for every hour a unionized worker puts in, one of the Big Three really does spend about $73 on compensation. So the number isn’t made up. But it is the combination of three very different categories.

The first category is simply cash payments, which is what many people imagine when they hear the word “compensation.” It includes wages, overtime and vacation pay, and comes to about $40 an hour. (The numbers vary a bit by company and year. That’s why $73 is sometimes $70 or $77.)

The second category is fringe benefits, like health insurance and pensions. These benefits have real value, even if they don’t show up on a weekly paycheck. At the Big Three, the benefits amount to $15 an hour or so.

Add the two together, and you get the true hourly compensation of Detroit’s unionized work force: roughly $55 an hour. It’s a little more than twice as much as the typical American worker makes, benefits included. The more relevant comparison, though, is probably to Honda’s or Toyota’s (nonunionized) workers. They make in the neighborhood of $45 an hour, and most of the gap stems from their less generous benefits.

The third category is the cost of benefits for retirees. These are essentially fixed costs that have no relation to how many vehicles the companies make. But they are a real cost, so the companies add them into the mix — dividing those costs by the total hours of the current work force, to get a figure of $15 or so — and end up at roughly $70 an hour.

That was from the NY Times http://www.nytimes.com/2008/12/10/business/economy/10leonhardt.html?adxnnl=1&adxnnlx=1229362877-hlPijqLd3O+5BlRHhaXyTA - though I don't really agree with the premise of the article, some of the figures seem accurate.

That guy I know getting $50k isn't going to be too hurt if he gets $40k... Get my meaning?

And while I understand where you're coming from there... WHY does the burden fall on the $50k/yr worker, and not the $500k/yr executive pulling the strings? The guy making $500k/yr wouldn't be too hurt if he's only getting $400k/yr - get my meaning?

[Disclaimer]

Doesn't matter WHERE they're built - unless you want to talk about the tax breaks the foreign automakers get.

If you compare the tax breaks Alabama gave to foreign auto makers to located there, it accounts for around $175k per job that it costs the state. The bailout proposal is no where NEAR that figure per job - it's much less to save much more. I'm looking for the article now and I'll post it when I find it.

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/motoring/news/3511250/US-big-three-car-makers-get-trade-union-support.html

Edited December 15, 2008 by JRMMiii

[Dweezel]

GM has allot more than that. That appears to be just what they own on the US side of things, don't forget Opal, Holden, Daewoo, Volvo, and about a dozen other companies, not to mention a controling stake in Subaru, and a few other car companies. If GM fails, there is a large chunk of the world that stands to fall.

also, I'm not going to piece edit like Lizzy did, I don't have the time. But a mechanic, someone who's father has owned a garage, and someone who only buys American cars any more. I'm like that for a reason. My family has owned many a GM cars with over 200k on them. Hell my cousin has sold, and resold my mothers old Bonnie that the last time he took it in on trade had over 340k on it, and he SOLD IT AGAIN it ran so damn good. My dad has a 94 Yukon with 320k on it, he finaly retired it because the transmission FINALLY gave up the ghost, and would cost more to fix/replace than the truck is worth, and he doesn't want to pay to fix the exhaust. Cars are what you make of them, if you take care of them, yes they'll last forever. hell my old man is horrible with preventive maintance. that 94 is lucky if it gets an oil change ever 10k miles, and is still on the origial GM trans fluid. still runs impressively strong, uses no oil (well we had to do valve seals at 280k) and I'd have no quarrals about driving it to cali (sans transmission...)

Yes their management is old, and so is the rest of the countries. there is no reason for anyone to make 14mil a year, yet we have idiots playing baseball that make more than that. THAT is the problem, and if you'd read, it's being addressed in these loans (except AIG) and that is what they are, LOANS.

GM buys engines from Honda, they've used Izuzu transmissions for years, Honda uses GM's OnStar, and XM Radio, Mazda simply rebadges the whole damn ranger and sells it as their own, Pontiac sells the Matrix as a Vibe, I fail to see your point other than GM is buying a part from a supplyer. It's not that GM can't build a clean motor, hell the LSx motor has won numerous quality, design awards, and will pass a cali smog test without a cat. Hell the whole engine has no emissions controls other than what the Govt REQUIRES. and if you think they can't build small engines, I invite you too look at the sky/solstice power plant, also the new cobalt SS engine they are above and beyond anything Honda/Toyota/whoever the hell makes.

[f4isvt]

I think ford owns volvo. Gm does own one of the most bad ass car compaines in Vauxhall. Not saying chevy can't build a good small motor but those americanized vauxhalls blow turbos up like no bodys business. I can say my 94 s10 has less issues then my 06 f150.

[Disclaimer]

@ Dweez mentioning the Vibe and Matrix. I laugh because the Matrix gets rave reviews because it's Toyota, but magazines and reviewers rip the Vibe apart, yet they're BUILT ON THE SAME LINE!

This is how stupid people are: http://answers.yahoo.com/question/index?qid=20070221143240AAYzxrd

and I'm not so much ragging on the lady for her question, as I am the bold sentence...

Toyota Matrix vs. Pontiac Vibe?

Does this car last as long or work as well as a Toyota Camry? Would you think it is better than the Pontiac Vibe? Do you think it would last longer than the Vibe? I've read that both companies designed their cars very similar. My husband thinks I should choose the Matrix because it's a Toyota and he thinks it would run better and last longer than a Vibe. Do you think this is true?

[Moto-Brian]

And while I understand where you're coming from there... WHY does the burden fall on the $50k/yr worker, and not the $500k/yr executive pulling the strings? The guy making $500k/yr wouldn't be too hurt if he's only getting $400k/yr - get my meaning?

You can take your pick. I just know the $50k guy who was getting more than $50k a year, by the way - it is his pension set-up that's a measly $50k...

But, whatever way you want to fold it - hit them all. I actually think the Gov't is asking this to happen to everyone - big or small within the system...

[Dweezel]

Active brands

The following GM brands were being produced in July 2008:

• Buick
  
• Cadillac
  
• Chevrolet
  
• Daewoo
  
• GMC
  
• Holden
  
• Hummer
  
• Opel
  
• Pontiac
  
• Saab
  
• Saturn
  
• Vauxhall
  

[edit] Defunct brands

• Acadian (1962-1971, Canada)
  
• Asüna (1993, Canada)
  
• Beaumont (1966-1969, Canada)
  
• Bedford Vehicles (1930–1987, UK)
  
• Elmore (1909-1912)
  
• Envoy (1960-1970, Canada)
  
• Geo (1989–1997)
  
• LaSalle (1927–1940)
  
• Marquette (1930)
  
• Oakland (1907–1931)
  
• Oldsmobile (1897-2004)
  
• Rapid Truck (1909–1912)
  
• Reliance Truck (1909–1912)
  
• Statesman (1971–1984, Australia)
  
• Viking (1929–1931)
  
• General Motors Diesel Division
  

[edit] Spin-off

• GM Defense 1950-2003 was once part of General Motors Diesel Division and as General Dynamics Land Systems division of General Dynamics
  

• Electro Motive Division of General Motors was also once part of General Motors Diesel Division and now known as Electro-Motive Diesel
  

• Detroit Diesel sold to Penske Corporation; broken up and portion sold to the former Daimler-Chrysler AG (now Daimler AG); now part of Daimler AG
  

• transit division was sold to Motor Coach Industries and Transportation Manufacturing Corporation
  
  • RTS and Classic bus rights owned by MCI And TMC were sold off to Nova Bus; now produced by Millennium Transit Services
    

• Diesel Division of General Motors of Canada Limited spun off and later acquired by General Motors Canada as Diesel Division of General Motors of Canada Limited
  

• EDS - Electronic Data Systems
  

• Hughes Electronics(Now The DirecTV Group((Liberty Media)))
  

• 1999 GM spun off it parts making operations as Delphi
  

[edit] Subsidiaries

• AC Delco
  
• Adam Opel GmbH
  
• Allison Transmission All assets except the Allison plant in Baltimore were divested in early 2007. GM-Allison hybrid-powered buses.
  
• General Motors Acceptance Corporation 51% stake sold to Cerberus Capital management for 14.7 billion in late 2006.
  
• General Motors Canada
  
• General Motors do Brasil
  
• General Motors India
  
• Global Hybrid Cooperation
  
• General Motors South Africa
  
• GM-AvtoVAZ
  
• GM Daewoo (50.9%)
  
• GM Defense
  
• GM Europe
  
• GM Holden Ltd
  
• GM Performance Division
  
• GM Powertrain Europe
  
• OnStar
  
• Saab Automobile
  
• Shanghai GM (50%)
  
• Vauxhall Motors
  
• SAIC-GM-Wuling Automobile Joint venture in China.
  

[Moto-Brian]

GM has allot more than that. That appears to be just what they own on the US side of things, don't forget Opal, Holden, Daewoo, Volvo, and about a dozen other companies, not to mention a controling stake in Subaru, and a few other car companies. If GM fails, there is a large chunk of the world that stands to fall.

also, I'm not going to piece edit like Lizzy did, I don't have the time. But a mechanic, someone who's father has owned a garage, and someone who only buys American cars any more. I'm like that for a reason. My family has owned many a GM cars with over 200k on them. Hell my cousin has sold, and resold my mothers old Bonnie that the last time he took it in on trade had over 340k on it, and he SOLD IT AGAIN it ran so damn good. My dad has a 94 Yukon with 320k on it, he finaly retired it because the transmission FINALLY gave up the ghost, and would cost more to fix/replace than the truck is worth, and he doesn't want to pay to fix the exhaust. Cars are what you make of them, if you take care of them, yes they'll last forever. hell my old man is horrible with preventive maintance. that 94 is lucky if it gets an oil change ever 10k miles, and is still on the origial GM trans fluid. still runs impressively strong, uses no oil (well we had to do valve seals at 280k) and I'd have no quarrals about driving it to cali (sans transmission...)

Yes their management is old, and so is the rest of the countries. there is no reason for anyone to make 14mil a year, yet we have idiots playing baseball that make more than that. THAT is the problem, and if you'd read, it's being addressed in these loans (except AIG) and that is what they are, LOANS.

GM buys engines from Honda, they've used Izuzu transmissions for years, Honda uses GM's OnStar, and XM Radio, Mazda simply rebadges the whole damn ranger and sells it as their own, Pontiac sells the Matrix as a Vibe, I fail to see your point other than GM is buying a part from a supplyer. It's not that GM can't build a clean motor, hell the LSx motor has won numerous quality, design awards, and will pass a cali smog test without a cat. Hell the whole engine has no emissions controls other than what the Govt REQUIRES. and if you think they can't build small engines, I invite you too look at the sky/solstice power plant, also the new cobalt SS engine they are above and beyond anything Honda/Toyota/whoever the hell makes.

Problem is that the sports guys getting $14 million a year is a result of ticket sales and spectators. If you are against it, stop paying the fees assciated with going to watch a sporting event. That directly helps in paying those salaries. Not a fair comparo at all...

As far as the examples of long miles and long term positive experience, like I stated, for every good experience, one can find a bad one or even two. Hell, I own an F350 and LOVE it. Of course, my family was HARD core US cars. Up until my parents went German in their car choices. But, up until about 2000, my dad would NEVER have bought a foreign car. Now, he has no idea why he didn't sooner.

I had a buddy with an 07 truck that lost the water pump, had the injectors go bad. I also had a friend with a Malibu (07) that lost the tranny and the body panels are so damn inconsistent that you wonder if it had been wrecked before...

Point is that your opinions are based on your experience and from what I can tell, it seems a LOT of Americans prefer Japanese over US cars companies. Why? Call it creative marketing. Call it whatever you wish to satisfy your beliefs, but in the end, numbers don't lie and even though the numbers can be turned around and manipulated however needed, the Japanese sell a shit load of cars and have more repeat buyers that will continue to buy foreign makes.

That alone should tell GM and others something...

[f4isvt]

How can anyone say the vibe is better or worse than a matrix? Are people really that dumb? The air filter in a vibe says toyota denso. Its a toyota motor and trans. I am amazed that people are that fucking stupid. Thats like saying a ranger is better than a mazda b2000.

Edited December 15, 2008 by f4isvt

[Moto-Brian]

@ Dweez mentioning the Vibe and Matrix. I laugh because the Matrix gets rave reviews because it's Toyota, but magazines and reviewers rip the Vibe apart, yet they're BUILT ON THE SAME LINE!

This is how stupid people are: http://answers.yahoo.com/question/index?qid=20070221143240AAYzxrd

and I'm not so much ragging on the lady for her question, as I am the bold sentence...

But, the interiors are somewhat different and the body panels and such are different. The Pontiac looks less friendly and even though it is the same platform, tell me why America loves the Cavalier more than the Sunfire? It's the same...

Point is that subtle differences can mean a lot. The new Vibe got better reviews, by the way...

It's a platform - not rolled out of the same factory...

[Dweezel]

But, the interiors are somewhat different and the body panels and such are different. The Pontiac looks less friendly and even though it is the same platform, tell me why America loves the Cavalier more than the Sunfire? It's the same...

Point is that subtle differences can mean a lot. The new Vibe got better reviews, by the way...

It's a platform - not rolled out of the same factory...

the entire car was designed and built by Toyota, all GM did was sign on the dotted line.

[jarvismb]

just for shits, I thought I'd throw this into the "who owns what" debate. It's a little dated by now, but it's only like 2 years old, and it's interesting to look at if nothing else....

[Disclaimer]

Yea, that is a little dated... GM just recently dumped the 3% stake in Suzuki. That was the most notable to me...and they've dropped their stake in Subaru last year (i think last year) too. I love the WRX.

[jarvismb]

yea, a lot can happen in 2 years, but it's still cool to look at, and I can't find one that anyone has properly updated.

[Moto-Brian]

the entire car was designed and built by Toyota, all GM did was sign on the dotted line.

If I am not mistaken, the Vibe is assembled in a GM facility... I might be wrong and then you can say it really makes no sense, but again, the PLATFORM is a Matrix and was designed by Toyota, but the Vibe exterior and such were designed and used by Pontiac, no?

Again, I very well may be wrong...

[Disclaimer]

MAYOR VIRG BERNERO OF LANSING MICHIGAN TEARS INTO FOX ANCHOR - HILARIOUS!!!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=a-nLS6FJtSM