A realistic view of the big 3.

[InyaAzz]

LOL

"There must be a disconnect on our Skype Webcam"

[4DAIVI PAI2K5]

fuck free trade and fair trade.

u wanna import something to the usa, fine but im gonna hit u with taxes out the yin yang.

now if u wanna create it here, fine ill give u a tax break.

simple done deal

[Blitzburgh]

The bottom line here is that the big three are bleeding and the Japanese are not.

You work 3 days a week and then tell me the Japanese are not hurting.. Trust me.. We are getting ready to SHUT DOWN for at least a month after going 3 months of only working 3 days a week.. Guess what.... next week we are going from 2700 cars a day to 2100 cars a day and only working 3 days a week. This just the 2 plants in Ohio.

If we had a union we wouldn't have 20% temp workforce.. we wouldn't be working 3 days a week... We would lower production and if need be, lay people off and the rest working 40 hours a week. Hell right now I would be making more money if I was layed off. Trust me it is not all sunshine and green grass in Japanese auto land..

[Tigerpaw]

How bad is their bookkeeping that they tank after a 1-year slump?

[that dude]

wow- im gonna start off by saying this im very proud to be a local 33 union sheetmetal worker, and if it wasnt for the unions the scabs wouldnt get paid what they get now. in my my feild a typical non -union residential hvac guy gets 10-20 an hr, shitty benes if any, shitty 401k, if any..that being said we make 32.51 taxable per hr, have 2 pensions 1 annuity and full benes my contractor pays per hr. our total wage package is about 60 an hr. now i went through 5 years of apprenticeship making 10/hr then 13/hr then 15/hr then 20/hr then 22.51 /hr. during those five years i had to go to school for 40 hrs per month and nightschool at 8hrs a week..got paid half my wage during day school shit at night..what i do very few want or could do, trust me we started off with 30 people and graduated with 12. its not easy and its a skilled trade, and yes i think i deserve what i get paid. we all have a choice in life to choose our profession, i choose mine(3rd generation tinner) and you choose yours. if you dont like what we get paid shut your mouth cause you choose your path. uaw workers dont make 40 or even 50 hr. most make around 18-22 hr taxable.total package is round 45 hr..are you saying the people (unions) that built this f-n country are overpaid, then you are a fucktard. if the government would start taxing the foreigners it and giving tax breaks on companys who build here we would be better off. no we do it the ass backwards way and give you breaks if you outsource..nafta fucked us, our white collar lobbyist ceo's and reps, not the hard working blue collar americans! sorry for the long rant but im sick of people blaming the unions.

[InyaAzz]

I have family that works/has worked for the UAW, and other family that work for GM, but not the UAW.I grew up in Saginaw, MI..right down the street from Delphi's HQ (Steering Gear).I've listened to years of stories about how mR. X was high on crack or drunk, came to work..did it again 3 times within the year, and still has a job. This guy is making your American made car. Yes, these types of stories came from people directly involved with the situation...not Joe Blow on the street. I've also listened to the stories of how management is fucked up, poor planning, poor engineering, etc that the UAW has absolutely nothing to do with. Again, this is straight from the horse's mouth. You don't get much more GM outside of Detroit than Flint and Saginaw.

My point? The unions AND the Big 3 are both to blame. A perfect storm of SHIT. Add to that the government's desire to cradle the balls of foreign investment...and it's a SHIT STORM. It wasn't hard to predict. Let me break it down for ya. Back when big iron was in it's glory, and the UAW was able to get these out of whack benefits for their members, life was good. Yes..out of whack because no one else in the county came close to being able to walk off the street with no skill and make those wages. does it make it wrong? NO. Both parties agreed to it...nothing wrong there. BUT..at the time there were no back end costs (IE retiree benefits) to worry about. Someone probably should have thought about that...but hey, times where good. Fuck it. Let someone 40 years down the road worry about it.

So, this formula works for a while, but then the imports set up shop....locally. And they don't have the back end costs that the big 3 are saddled with. in addition to that, they are paying their employees something a little more realistic in terms of the rest of the population. Again...NOT the UAW's fault they are getting paid what they are. And 'that dude', I'm not sure where you are getting your info, but there are guys on the line in the UAW pulling in 40/hr easily. I talk to one every day.

So now the playing field isn't level (blame the government), BUT...in addition to this, we have the companies mis managing their product lines, shitty engineering, AND the UAW purposely keeping members on their payrolls who would have been FIRED a LONG ASS time ago for some of the stuff they were doing (and rightly so), if they were in any other job. Again, these guys are making your cars, so the quality starts to suffer. Added to that, management is more concerned about #'s and filling parking lots then quality cars..so they aren't trying to stop the line for any reason. Yup..this happens to this day. My family member was moved from Detroit to Stow, OH to run the third shift there. He got there, and said it was worse than Detroit. Quality was NOT Job #1. No one gave a fuck. NOW..they cut him..hired him back..and is moving him BACK to Detroit. Way to save money there GM. If anyone knows about the $$ they get to move to another plant, especially when it comes to selling your house at a loss, then you know what I'm getting at.

Ok..to sum this up..it's EVERYONE INVOLVED's fault. The UAW has priced themselves out of a job. No one is saying that you shouldn't get paid whatever you can, but if your boss (UAW) has created a situation that is NOT sustainable, what do you think is going to happen? The Big 3 are mostly run by idiots, and unless their mentality changes, will do themselves in in short order. Did you not see this coming at any point?! Really? Want to build another assembly plant? Really? And the government..well..I don't know where to begin.

Spread the blame around folks. All parties involved are liable.

[that dude]

im getting my facts from many people who i know personally that are uaw workers- tom our shop repair man retired from gm most he made was about 30 an hr as a machinist. my skiinf buddy works for gm gets paid 21 an hr. not gonna argue someone makes 40 but most do not even come close to that on a taxable hrly rate.

thousands of people come and go to work high drunk coked out etc everyday.i have partied with many white collar workers including our doctors and lawyers" typical sterotype of a contruction worker so to speak. i agree that its everyones fault, including the consumers buying foreign.we as a whole nation have to accept the blame and faults. its not just the uaw or "union guys", like so f-n many like to point out.

[fusion]

Over the years I've known more than a few that work(ed) at the GM plant here that were making 30+ an hour not including things like pensions. About half of those I knew where more concerned about the number of people on the books because it was difficult sometimes to fire a union worker and gaps had to be filled. I also heard a ton of complaints by guys I've known contracting there about only union workers being able to do certain jobs. For example, electrical union workers had to approve and plug in things like desktop computers.

[InyaAzz]

im getting my facts from many people who i know personally that are uaw workers- tom our shop repair man retired from gm most he made was about 30 an hr as a machinist. my skiinf buddy works for gm gets paid 21 an hr. not gonna argue someone makes 40 but most do not even come close to that on a taxable hrly rate.

thousands of people come and go to work high drunk coked out etc everyday.i have partied with many white collar workers including our doctors and lawyers" typical sterotype of a contruction worker so to speak. i agree that its everyones fault, including the consumers buying foreign.we as a whole nation have to accept the blame and faults. its not just the uaw or "union guys", like so f-n many like to point out.

I agree with what you're saying. Yes, people come to work buzzed. BUT if they are caught, most are fired. If I fail a drug test at work..I'm gone. Not so in the UAW. That was my point..I knew of repeat, habitual fuck ups that continued to keep their jobs when there were people (including me) DYING to get into the plant when I was younger, so I didn't have to go to the military. Again, these are the people making our cars, and PART of the reason why quality was an issue years ago (and for some, still an issue).

It's a shame, because the current crop of stuff from Ford, and a few from GM are meeting or beating the imports in quality. But it's almost too little, too late. The image issue, plus the economy, is just a bad situation for all car manufacturers.

And it's not all roses in import land..who was it, Toyota?? that had it's first loss as a company. 1st loss might not sound like a big deal to us..but for them it's HUGE.

So yeah, in one breath I can bash the union, but in another breath I can also point out that they had a LOT of help in this mess. What I judge all parties on, is how the react NOW. What are they doing going forward? Has the UAW given up a lot? Of course they have. And it sucks. BUT if it means keeping your job......maybe it's time to bend over, take it up the ass for a while and when things get better you start negotiating to get your anal lining back. Live to fight another day. The argument that the UAW is fighting for the middle class is BS. No one else makes what they make. They ARE their own class.

Has management given up enough? Probably not. The hourly guys always seem to be the first to go and suffer. Time to put up or shut up. Stop these crazy ass salaries and bonuses for companies that are failing. Stop making cars to fill warehouses and lots and actually give a damn about what you are making. That shit starts from the top. If you don't care, the union won't. Why should they?

If anyone in the UAW or management in the big 3 is reading this, I truly hope you get to keep your job and make it through this. I was out of work for 4 months, 2 years ago, and it wasn't fun.

Edited February 20, 2009 by InyaAzz

[that dude]

trades as a whole are slow..no ones spending the big monies today..i think its gonna be a rough year for most blue collars like myself..in times like these i just bust my ass even more and work as much as possible..it just kills me to see the big three dying, cause most people have not a single f-n clue how catastrphic it would be to the usa if they went under totatlly.

[Disclaimer]

I didn't want to start a new thread for this, so I'll revive this one.

This is a cool interactive chart of "Domestic" autos. It has each of the auto manufacturers, where the transmission is from, where the engine is from, where the vehicle is assembled, and whether or not the shop is unionized.

VERY informative for quick gloss of information

Cars and Trucks "Made in the USA"

http://www.nytimes.com/interactive/2009/06/19/automobiles/20090619-auto-plants-4.html