Conceal Carry Law

[LJ]

i said you need more emotion in your life.... ?

 

 

So what does that have to do with the topic?

 

 

Nothing?

[RedRocket1647545505]

then good for you! im glad you made that desicion... why can't i make mine? i'm not ripping on anyone for carrying! all im saying is... i dont agree with it lol geezus you guys need more EMOTIONS in your life!!

 

k lets just make this even. if you see me getting butt rapped.. please, let him continue. feel better?

 

I'll call the cops for you.

 

and I <3 LJ.

[sciongirl]

im going home now.. pick on me tomorrow.

[sciongirl]

So what does that have to do with the topic?

 

 

Nothing?

exactly.

[RedRocket1647545505]

i said you need more emotion in your life.... ?

 

Emotions are for pussies.

[LJ]

exactly.

 

ummmm, alright then, stick to topic shall we?

[Putty]

And those shots were still a little too close to mother and baby for my likings too

 

 

The baby didn't even flinch or cry.

[Dr. Pomade]

I think you guys are being a little harsh - sciongirl's asking logical (yes, logical) questions and some of you seem like you want to punch her in the face.

 

Some of you have said that CCW is proven to work, or something to that effect. Not that I'm denying that, but can someone - without coming across as intermittently explosive - expatiate on what exactly CCW does? And give me facts, people, not any anectodal shit like, "I feels teh so much safer and bad guyz are done for!" For instance, has it shown to lower the crime rate?

 

Also, I'd like to know who amongst the pro-CCW crowd thinks society at large can be trusted. I mean, when it comes down to it, yes or no, can you trust your fellow man? Hopefully that makes sense; let me know if it doesn't.

 

BTW, there are many people in this thread - Austin and Putty, to name two - that I very much respect, so know that I'm trying to ask my questions in as respectful manner as possible and that I'm genuinely interested in hearing your opinions.

[RedRocket1647545505]

I think you guys are being a little harsh - sciongirl's asking logical (yes, logical) questions and some of you seem like you want to punch her in the face.

 

Some of you have said that CCW is proven to work, or something to that effect. Not that I'm denying that, but can someone - without coming across as intermittently explosive - expatiate on what exactly CCW does? And give me facts, people, not any anectodal shit like, "I feels teh so much safer and bad guyz are done for!" For instance, has it shown to lower the crime rate?

 

Also, I'd like to know who amongst the pro-CCW crowd thinks society at large can be trusted. I mean, when it comes down to it, yes or no, can you trust your fellow man? Hopefully that makes sense; let me know if it doesn't.

 

BTW, there are many people in this thread - Austin and Putty, to name two - that I very much respect, so know that I'm trying to ask my questions in as respectful manner as possible and that I'm genuinely interested in hearing your opinions.

 

I'm on it.

 

BTW, Diana, I don't mean to come across as an asshole, more of a smartass.

 

For the record, I am not a CCW permit holder.

 

Back in a bit with some stats...

[RedRocket1647545505]

http://www.gunfacts.info/pdfs/gun-facts/5.0/GunFacts5-0-screen.pdf

 

with sources. Lots of reading

[LJ]

I think you guys are being a little harsh - sciongirl's asking logical (yes, logical) questions and some of you seem like you want to punch her in the face.

 

Some of you have said that CCW is proven to work, or something to that effect. Not that I'm denying that, but can someone - without coming across as intermittently explosive - expatiate on what exactly CCW does? And give me facts, people, not any anectodal shit like, "I feels teh so much safer and bad guyz are done for!" For instance, has it shown to lower the crime rate?

 

Also, I'd like to know who amongst the pro-CCW crowd thinks society at large can be trusted. I mean, when it comes down to it, yes or no, can you trust your fellow man? Hopefully that makes sense; let me know if it doesn't.

 

BTW, there are many people in this thread - Austin and Putty, to name two - that I very much respect, so know that I'm trying to ask my questions in as respectful manner as possible and that I'm genuinely interested in hearing your opinions.

You don't respect me?

[RedRocket1647545505]

You don't respect me?

 

'SWAT came into my house. Disrespected my whoe famiry.'

[RedRocket1647545505]

For the people that don't care to click my link:

 

 

Myth: Concealed carry laws increase crime

 

Fact: Forty states150, comprising the majority of the American population, are "right-to-carry" states. Statistics show that in these states the crime rate fell (or did not rise) after the right-to-carry law became active (as of July, 2006). Nine states deny or restrict the right to carry.

 

Fact: Crime rates involving gun owners with carry permits have consistently been about 0.02% of all carry permit holders since Florida’s right-to-carry law started in 1988.151

 

Fact: After passing their concealed carry law, Florida's homicide rate fell from 36% above the national average to 4% below, and remains below the national average (as of the last reporting period, 2005).152

 

Fact: In Texas, murder rates fell 50% faster than the national average in the year after their concealed carry law passed. Rape rates fell 93% faster in the first year after enactment, and

 

150At publication time two more states, Kansas and Nebraska, have pass shall-issue legislation, but insufficient data was available to determine how the change has impacted crime rates.

 

151 Florida Department of Justice, 1998

 

152Cramer C and Kopel D. Shall issue: the new wave of concealed handgun permit laws. Golden CO: Independence Institute Issue Paper. October 17, 1994

 

Gun Facts Version 5.0 Page 23 Copyright 2008, Guy Smith www.GunFacts.info All Rights Reserved

 

500% faster in the second153. Assaults fell 250% faster in the second year.154

 

Fact: More to the point, crime is significantly higher in states without right-to-carry laws155:

 

Fact: States that disallow concealed carry have violent crime rates 11% higher than national averages.156

 

Fact: Deaths and injuries from mass public shootings fall dramatically after right-to-carry concealed handgun laws are enacted. Between 1977 and 1995157, the average death rate from mass shootings plummeted by up to 91% after such laws went into effect, and injuries dropped by over 80%.158

 

Type of Crime

 

% Higher in Restrictive States

 

Robbery

 

105%

 

Murder

 

86%

 

Assault

 

82%

 

Violent Crime

 

81%

 

Auto theft

 

60%

 

Rape

 

25%

 

153 Some criminologist believe measuring first year change is shortsighted as it takes more than a year for permits to be issued, reach critical quantities, and for the criminally minded to recognize the new situation and avoid violent confrontations.

 

154 Bureau of Justice Statistics, online database, reviewing Texas and U.S. violent crime from 1995-2001.

 

155 John Lott, David Mustard: This study involved county level crime statistics from all 3,054 counties in the U.S., from 1977 through 1992. During this time ten states adopted right-to-carry laws. It is estimated that if all states had adopted right-to-carry laws, in 1992 the US would have avoided 1,400 murders, 4,200 rapes, 12,000 robberies, 60,000 aggravated assaults – and saved over $5,000,000,000 in victim expenses.

 

156 FBI, Uniform Crime Reports, 2004 - excludes Hawaii and Rhode Island - small populations and geographic isolation create other determinants to violent crime.

 

157 Federal legislation created a nation "gun-free schools" policy, effective in 1996. Some criminologists maintain this created a new dynamic, encouraging mass murder on campus. Thus after 1995 it is increasing difficult to make comparisons based on the effects of CCWs and mass shootings.

 

158 "Multiple Victim Public Shootings, Bombings, and Right-to-Carry Concealed Handgun Laws: Contrasting Private and Public Law Enforcement", John Lott and William Landes, Law School of the University of Chicago, Law & Economics Working Paper No. 73

 

Gun Facts Version 5.0 Page 24 Copyright 2008, Guy Smith www.GunFacts.info All Rights Reserved

 

Myth: People with concealed weapons permits will commit crimes

 

State159

 

Permits issued

 

Revoked permits

 

% Revoked

 

Violent Crime Rate Change160

 

Florida

 

1,327,321161

 

4,129

 

0.3%

 

-30.5%

 

Virginia

 

50,000162

 

0

 

0.0%

 

-21.9%

 

Arizona

 

63,000163

 

50

 

0.9%

 

-28.7%

 

North Carolina

 

59,597164

 

1,274

 

1.2%

 

-26.4%

 

Minnesota

 

46,636165

 

12

 

0.03%

 

16.8%166

 

Michigan

 

155,000167

 

2,178

 

0.1%

 

1.4%

 

Fact: The results for the first 30 states that passed "shall-issue" laws for concealed carry permits are similar.

 

Fact: The general public is:168

 

• 5.7 times more likely to be arrested for violent offenses than CCW permit holders.

 

• 13.5 times more likely to be arrested for non-violent offenses than the than CCW permit holders.

 

Fact: In Texas, the general public is 14 more likely to commit a crime than a CCW permit holder. They are also five times more likely to commit a violent crime.169

 

Fact: Even gun control organizations agree it is a non-problem, as in Texas – "because there haven't been Wild West shootouts in the streets".170

 

Fact: Of 14,000 CCW licensees in Oregon, only 4 (0.03%) were convicted of the criminal (not necessarily violent) use or possession of a firearm.

 

159 Reports were as received. No selection or filtering process was used.

 

160 Violent crime rates are from inception of "shall issue" CCW through 2006, the most recent period available through the Bureau of Justice Statistics online database.

 

161 October 1987 through Jan 2008

 

162 1995 – no follow-up data available

 

163 1994 through 2007

 

164 1995 through 2004

 

165 2002 through 2006

 

166 In 2005 and 2006, Minnesota had an abnormal spike in robbery and aggravated assaults. The first three years of CCW in Minnesota saw violent crime rates being roughly stable.

 

167 2001 through 2007

 

168 "An Analysis of the Arrest Rate of Texas Concealed Carry Handgun License Holders as Compared to the Arrest Rate of the Entire Texas Population", William E. Sturdevant, PE, September 11, 1999

 

169 Texas Department of Public Safety and the U.S. Census Bureau, reported in San Antonio Express-News, September, 2000

 

170 Nina Butts, Texans Against Gun Violence, Dallas Morning News, August 10, 2000

 

Gun Facts Version 5.0 Page 25 Copyright 2008, Guy Smith www.GunFacts.info All Rights Reserved

 

Fact: In Florida, a state that has allowed concealed carry since late 1987, you are twice as likely to be attacked by an alligator as by a person with a concealed carry permit.171

 

Myth: Texas CCW holders are arrested 66% more often

 

Fact: Most arrests cited are not any form of violent crime (includes bounced checks or tax delinquency). 172

 

Fact: The VPC "study" only includes arrests, not convictions.

 

Fact: Many of these arrests in this premature VPC "study" came in the early years of Texas CCWs when the law was not understood by most of the law enforcement community or prosecutors.

 

Fact: Compared to the entire population, Texas CCW holders are about 7.6 times less likely to be arrested for a violent crime. 173The numbers breakdown as follows:

 

• 214,000 CCW holders 174

 

• 526 (0.2%) felony arrests of CCW holders that have been adjudicated

 

• 100 (0.05%) felony convictions

 

Fact: A different study concludes that the four year violent crime arrest rate for CCW holders is 128 per 100,000. For the general population, it is 710 per 100,000. In other words, the general public is 5.5 times more likely to commit a violent crime than a CCW licensee.175

 

171 Florida Department of State, "Concealed Weapons/Firearms License Statistical Report", 1998 – Florida Game and Fresh Water Fish Commission, December 1998

 

172 "Basis For Revocation Or Suspension Of Texas Concealed ", Texas Department of Public Safety, December 1, 1998

 

173 Texas Department of Corrections data, 1996-2000, compiled by the Texas State Rifle Association, www.tsra.com/arrests.htm

 

174 These are year 2000 records. As of 2005, the number of Texas concealed carry permit holders was 248,874.

 

175 "An Analysis Of The Arrest Rate Of Texas Concealed Handgun License Holders As Compared To The Arrest Rate Of The Entire Texas Population", William E. Sturdevant, PE, September 11, 1999 Texas Crime Rates-1,0002,0003,0004,0005,0006,0007,0001996199719981999Per 100,000 populationGeneral PopulationCCW LicenseesSource: Texas Department of Public Safety (1996

[Dr. Pomade]

You don't respect me?

 

I said there were many people in the thread I respect, and I named two that came to mind at that time. Yes, I respect you as well.

[Dr. Pomade]

Austin, thanks for the data. Gimme some time to digest it and I'll respond.

[Putty]

I be nice to Diana...ditto, Tilley.

[SSick06]

God damn, you need some education on this subject. You voted for Obama, didn't you? Hope? Emotions driving your decisions? Yep, you're a naive democrat.

 

Take a step back into reality and realize that this world doesn't run on Hope and heros and that nobody is going to save your ass but YOU. Nobody.

 

Before you continue to throw out your misguided, emotion-driven opinions on the subject, how about you do some research on it first?

 

1. People aren't heros

2. 1 armed criminal would laugh his ass off at 10 unarmed, and dead, 'heros', if they even did step in to save you.

3. Cops WILL NOT be there in a timely manner

4. They aren't even obligated to save your sorry ass.

5. CCW is PROVEN to work. Let me say that again; IT'S PROVEN.

6. CCW holders are trained on the proper use and legal issues.

7. People that have the drive and desire to obtain their CCW do not take the responsibility lightly.

 

AMEN :bangbang:

[copperhead]

Diana -

 

No disrespect intended, but have you ever fired a gun? If not, may I offer you a trip to the shooting range, so you can experience it firsthand?

[Scotty2Hotty]

I miss carrying a rifle (In the open)

http://i228.photobucket.com/albums/ee75/pickupsplus/78320010.jpg

[Scotty2Hotty]

Diana -

 

No disrespect intended, but have you ever fired a gun? If not, may I offer you a trip to the shooting range, so you can experience it firsthand?

She owns guns.

[kenny]

Tilley, some other info you might find interesting,

 

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kennesaw,_Georgia#Gun_law

 

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gun_politics_in_Switzerland

 

Look at it this way, if you're a criminal and you have two identical places to rob, one being a place you can't carry and one being a place you can, the obvious choice is to rob the one with less threat - the one where carry is banned. If the chances of criminals having law abiding citizens shoot back increases, crime will decrease because the criminal might actually act like a logical human and say "hey, something bad might happen if I try this".

[Dr. Pomade]

Austin and Kenny, thanks for the data/information. Good stuff, and interesting to read. Some of it (and maybe most of it?) seems correlational, and we know that has its potential flaws (i.e., that it doesn't necessarily imply causation). Regardless, though, thanks.

 

No one has weighed in yet on my question about trust. Do you trust your fellow human? I'm speaking more globally here - are humans, at heart, trustworthy?

[Putty]

No one has weighed in yet on my question about trust. Do you trust your fellow human? I'm speaking more globally here - are humans, at heart, trustworthy?

 

Globally, not speaking of people i know, personally.....I say, no. In today's world I think people are all about their best interest, regardless if it's hurtful or damaging to someone else, as long as it benefits them or their families. Like relationships, trust is earned and I think people that don't have an immediate connection with someone else can careless of them.

[kenny]

I'm torn on the trust question.

 

One part of me wants to say if some random strangers life was in danger the majority of the world would try to help and the other part wants to agree with what Putty just said.

 

Personally in the US I feel our quality of population (for lack of a better term) has drastically declined since the end of WWII. These days everyone seems to take everything they have for granted, and are only out for themselves. We have the most retarded law suits ever heard of - and yet somehow people win them.

 

So, I dunno. I guess if it comes down to someone maybe saving my life if I needed it, yeah, I'd like to think there would be someone that would help out. But at the same time, that's part of the reason I have a CCW...

[Scotty2Hotty]

No one has weighed in yet on my question about trust. Do you trust your fellow human? I'm speaking more globally here - are humans, at heart, trustworthy?

No, they are not. Go to the middle east, they hate you for being American plain and simple. Most of the world hates Americans and would love to do nothing more than destroy your life. Trust is like respect, it's something to be earned, not automatically granted.