Arazona guns in bars law

[LJ]

I dont think the laws have been out long enough for an issue to come up. Like someone said earlier, once it does, then the ban will be put back on.

What?

 

Gee isn't that what was said about Concealed Carry when it was first introduced? You should check the statistics on that.

[CRed05]

To everyone making the argument for NOT being allowed to carry in a bar, you realize this makes Arizona the 39th state in the U.S. to allow this? That means that 78% of the states in the union allow bar carry. Tell me, where are these shootouts you speak of? Surely if what you say is true, with 78% of the states allowing this, the evidence should be right there for you to gather.

 

Until then, STFU with your stupid rhetoric.

 

Sorry I must have missed it, and I'm assuming this is the question you're talking about.

 

Fucking Texas of all places do not allow them in bars, which says quite a bit.

 

http://cbs2chicago.com/local/bar.fight.shooting.2.698588.html

http://www.woio.com/global/story.asp?s=10607452

http://www.orangeleader.com/local/local_story_150171957.html

http://www.wdsu.com/news/18222989/detail.html

http://www.elpasotimes.com/ci_12663215?source=most_viewed

 

There are hundreds of examples.

[RangerTurbo]

I would love to use the example of putting the same type of restrictions on excersizing your other rights. But 100% of the time anyone arguing against some form of carry always makes the statement that the other rights have nothing to do with guns and what not. And it's always because their depth of reasoning on the situation don't let them see past the "guns are bad" mentality and take a look at what that type of thinking does to the Constitution, the Bill of Rights, and the Freedoms that we take for granted daily.

 

Which one of you guys would like to have to have a license to post on here which must be approved by a Government body after you go through extensive training and a backround check?

 

I know I know, what does writing have to do with guns, right?

[oh8sti]

I've already covered the type of person who uses this type of reasoning. It's like I'm psychic and knew someone would say that EXACT line. Or maybe it's just typical closet anti gun speek?

 

Trust me, i exercise my right to buy guns! I started when i was 18. I bought an AR-15, but when i walked out to put it in my car i thought to myself, holy fuck there are alot of 18 year old kids i would never trust with a gun. Same issue goes for 21 year olds. Go to vances on saturdays, tell me is you think 50% of those guys in there are buying Glocks and AK's (with a clean record somehow) for safe recreational use. Most have there CCW i would imagine. Cause if you pass to get a handgun, you can get your CCW.

 

Ranger, you have friends here, no one is trying to say your wrong. I am simply stating my point.

[LJ]

Sorry I must have missed it, and I'm assuming this is the question you're talking about.

 

Fucking Texas of all places do not allow them in bars, which says quite a bit.

 

http://cbs2chicago.com/local/bar.fight.shooting.2.698588.html

http://www.woio.com/global/story.asp?s=10607452

http://www.orangeleader.com/local/local_story_150171957.html

http://www.wdsu.com/news/18222989/detail.html

http://www.elpasotimes.com/ci_12663215?source=most_viewed

 

There are hundreds of examples.

 

You're an idiot.

 

#1 Texas has more liquor license classifications than most states. They allow carry where <51% of sales is from alcohol. That means BW3's, you could carry.

 

#2 You posted examples of shootings ALL in states where bar carry is illegal. You haven't pointed out shit. Post examples of CCW holders turning bars into the wild west where they are legally allowed to carry.

[CRed05]

You haven't shown one shred of evidence for your claims. How would you like me to show you all the ways crimes have been stopped due to carrying?

 

Now how many times has that happened in a bar, where a person has been drinking compared to how many times it was the cause of an incident?

[LJ]

Trust me, i exercise my right to buy guns! I started when i was 18. I bought an AR-15, but when i walked out to put it in my car i thought to myself, holy fuck there are alot of 18 year old kids i would never trust with a gun. Same issue goes for 21 year olds. Go to vances on saturdays, tell me is you think 50% of those guys in there are buying Glocks and AK's (with a clean record somehow) for safe recreational use. Most have there CCW i would imagine. Cause if you pass to get a handgun, you can get your CCW.

 

Ranger, you have friends here, no one is trying to say your wrong. I am simply stating my point.

 

Getting your CHL is not the same as buying a handgun.

 

You have to take a class, you go through a local, state and fed background check. All kinds of stuff.

[oh8sti]

I would love to use the example of putting the same type of restrictions on excersizing your other rights. But 100% of the time anyone arguing against some form of carry always makes the statement that the other rights have nothing to do with guns and what not. And it's always because their depth of reasoning on the situation don't let them see past the "guns are bad" mentality and take a look at what that type of thinking does to the Constitution, the Bill of Rights, and the Freedoms that we take for granted daily.

 

Which one of you guys would like to have to have a license to post on here which must be approved by a Government body after you go through extensive training and a backround check?

 

I know I know, what does writing have to do with guns, right?

 

You already answered the question for me. You cannot compare the 2 situations. Guns are not toys, guns are not things to be taken lightly and when you do they tend to remind you not to. You need to have responsibility when you have a gun, you need to respect its power and lastly you need to respect the fact that YOU make the decision. I dont worry about people like you Ranger, because i believe you have common sense. But not everyone that has a CCW should have one.

[RangerTurbo]

Trust me, i exercise my right to buy guns! I started when i was 18. I bought an AR-15, but when i walked out to put it in my car i thought to myself, holy fuck there are alot of 18 year old kids i would never trust with a gun. Same issue goes for 21 year olds. Go to vances on saturdays, tell me is you think 50% of those guys in there are buying Glocks and AK's (with a clean record somehow) for safe recreational use. Most have there CCW i would imagine. Cause if you pass to get a handgun, you can get your CCW.

 

Ranger, you have friends here, no one is trying to say your wrong. I am simply stating my point.

 

I know, I see those people too. Does it worry me? Yah. Do I change my thinking, reasoning, and beliefs just so I can curtail their Rights? Hell NO.

 

I am a die hard Constitutionalist. But the 2nd Amendment is not about the right to buy guns. I support each and every Amendment to the Bill of Rights. I don't let my own personal opinions and fears dictate how certain rights should be treated. Basing judgment on how to restrict a person's Rights simply because you or I might think they aren't with good intentions is how Rights become privileges, and those privileges quickly become restricted.

 

Maybe those guys in Vances are just buying them for recreational use. Maybe they are buying them for the fear of dramatic times that may lie ahead. I didn't buy all mine because I like to shoot paper targets. Some are for fun, others are bought for the purpose of thwarting off home invaders, would be muggers, or a .gov gone tyrannical.

Edited July 2, 2009 by RangerTurbo
added "not"

[CRed05]

You're an idiot.

 

#1 Texas has more liquor license classifications than most states. They allow carry where <51% of sales is from alcohol. That means BW3's, you could carry.

 

#2 You posted examples of shootings ALL in states where bar carry is illegal. You haven't pointed out shit. Post examples of CCW holders turning bars into the wild west where they are legally allowed to carry.

 

And I also said, BW3 is a restaurant, and not a full on bar. Does it really matter if its legal in that state or not? In none of the articles did I see anything saying that those people were not CCW holders. If those are all states where you are not allowed to carry at all in the entire state, then I will see if I can find other examples. But it proves that guns and alcohol doesnt mix.

[RangerTurbo]

Now how many times has that happened in a bar, where a person has been drinking compared to how many times it was the cause of an incident?

 

YOU tell ME. It's your point to prove how guns in bars = bad news. Not my point to prove how many times a crime never happened because of carry.

[CRed05]

I don't let my own personal opinions and fears dictate how certain rights should be treated. Basing judgment on how to restrict a person's Rights simply because you or I might think they aren't with good intentions is how Rights become privileges, and those privileges quickly become restricted.

 

Holy fuck, well said.

[CRed05]

YOU tell ME. It's your point to prove how guns in bars = bad news. Not my point to prove how many times a crime never happened because of carry.

 

Reply to post #85 of mine.

[RangerTurbo]

Gotta run to lunch, then have a heavy work load coming up. Will continue on when I can. Keep on posting guys

[verse]

And I also said, BW3 is a restaurant, and not a full on bar. Does it really matter if its legal in that state or not? In none of the articles did I see anything saying that those people were not CCW holders. If those are all states where you are not allowed to carry at all in the entire state, then I will see if I can find other examples. But it proves that guns and alcohol doesnt mix.

 

Do you not comprehend common sense? You just posted several articles, in states where bar carry is illegal, and CRIMINALS are shooting up bars. If they were CCW holders, it would be in the article the media is 90% anti-gun. So everything you just posted was for pro-bar carry, places where they ban it and people are shooting it up. Those people who shot up are criminals, CCW holders are not. If they wanted to carry a gun they wouldn't fork out the $200-300 for a class and registration so it was legal. It'd be much easier to just carry. Not to mention the full FEDERAL background check you must go through before getting your license.

[CRed05]

Do you not comprehend common sense? You just posted several articles, in states where bar carry is illegal, and CRIMINALS are shooting up bars. If they were CCW holders, it would be in the article the media is 90% anti-gun. So everything you just posted was for pro-bar carry, places where they ban it and people are shooting it up. Those people who shot up are criminals, CCW holders are not. If they wanted to carry a gun they wouldn't fork out the $200-300 for a class and registration so it was legal. It'd be much easier to just carry. Not to mention the full FEDERAL background check you must go through before getting your license.

 

You don't know that they weren't.

[verse]

You don't know that they weren't.

 

Yes I do... b/c they were in states that don't allow bar carry. Therefore are criminals, not law abiding citizens. Not to mention it would say in the article due to media being anti-gun. They'd take any chance to try to make CHL holders look bad.

[CRed05]

Yes I do... b/c they were in states that don't allow bar carry. Therefore are criminals, not law abiding citizens.

 

Fair enough.

[RangerTurbo]

You don't know that they weren't.

 

But it doesn't say they were either. You're assuming that they were (or might have been) and then making your judgment call that CCW'rs aren't law abiding. Thats a gross misjudgment.

 

You're making the correlation that everyone is criminal until proven innocent by assuming those criminals were CCW holders. That's an unsound way to pass verdict, very disturbing.

 

You can't criminalize everyone to attempt to stop violence. There are already laws out there forbidding criminals and felons from obtaining deadly weapons. Yet they still do. Enacting laws that forbids EVERYONE from doing such will only leave the criminals with the deadly weapons. The law abiding will obediently follow the law, the criminal will continue not to.

[verse]

I do believe in my 2nd amendment BUT there needs to be stricter laws on obtaining firearms. Im sorry, but plenty on shootings occur with legally bought guns. I honestly think there needs to be a psychiatric evaluation in order to buy a gun. Nowadays with so many people on prescription meds and shit. Im not trying to say i have the answers for all your questions. If i changed my fundamental thinking on this situation than maybe i would have them.

 

Okay, so a crazy person then can't buy a gun. That's fine, b/c felons already can't. Although, somehow they abtain a gun which means a crazy person can get one just as easy. There is no way to stop a criminal from getting a gun, stricter firearm laws aren't going to change how criminals get guns. That's plain and simple.

[CRed05]

But it doesn't say they were either. You're assuming that they were (or might have been) and then making your judgment call that CCW'rs aren't law abiding. Thats a gross misjudgment.

 

You're making the correlation that everyone is criminal until proven innocent by assuming those criminals were CCW holders. That's an unsound way to pass verdict, very disturbing.

 

You can't criminalize everyone to attempt to stop violence. There are already laws out there forbidding criminals and felons from obtaining deadly weapons. Yet they still do. Enacting laws that forbids EVERYONE from doing such will only leave the criminals with the deadly weapons. The law abiding will obediently follow the law, the criminal will continue not to.

 

Not at all. I'm saying people are people. Someone is not a criminal until he commits a crime. So someone could be a law biding citizen, who has been carrying for 50 years. It just takes that one stupid mistake, which alcohol certainly doesn't help prevent, to turn that person into a criminal. Background checks and psych tests cant predict the future.

 

Its illegal to carry while intoxicated, why give people the opportunity to do so? If we can trust everyone who carries, who decides to go into a bar, to not drink at all, resist the friend that goes "dude just do one", then there shouldnt be any problems. I just dont see that happening. I wonder how many cc people here, have gone to a bar, drank, and then drove home that night when they probably shouldnt have.

[LJ]

Not at all. I'm saying people are people. Someone is not a criminal until he commits a crime. So someone could be a law biding citizen, who has been carrying for 50 years. It just takes that one stupid mistake, which alcohol certainly doesn't help prevent, to turn that person into a criminal. Background checks and psych tests cant predict the future.

 

Its illegal to carry while intoxicated, why give people the opportunity to do so? If we can trust everyone who carries, who decides to go into a bar, to not drink at all, resist the friend that goes "dude just do one", then there shouldnt be any problems. I just dont see that happening. I wonder how many cc people here, have gone to a bar, drank, and then drove home that night when they probably shouldnt have.

 

The statistics are against you my friend. Numbers don't have agendas. CHL holders are proven to be better citizens than the average american.

[verse]

I wonder how many cc people here, have gone to a bar, drank, and then drove home that night when they probably shouldnt have.

 

So your agruement is going back to drinking and driving? Then ban alcohol all together, we've seen where that's gone before. I don't drive if I'm drinking and won't let my friends drive if they are shitfaced. If it's 2-3 beers within a 2 hour period, that's fine, but if you want to get shitfaced then don't drive. I don't.

 

I really don't care about carrying in a bar, but it should be our right if we are within the law. I don't go to bars, I just want to be able to go to a decent restaurant and still have the ability to protect my family and myself.

[LJ]

I have also asked you to PROVE that ALLOWING CHL in bars will INCREASE crime. You have not done so, all you have shown is that criminals will be criminals.

[verse]

I have also asked you to PROVE that ALLOWING CHL in bars will INCREASE crime. You have not done so, all you have shown is that criminals will be criminals.

 

Here's some for you.

 

http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/f-chat/2021752/posts

http://www.policelink.com/news_feeds/visit?uri=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.recordonline.com%2Fapps%2Fpbcs.dll%2Farticle%3FAID%3D%2F20090518%2FNEWS%2F90518024%2F-1%2FNEWS

 

Oh that's the complete opposite, sorry about that.

 

You won't win this argument, and the anti-gunners haven't in 39 other states. There's no evidence that this won't do anything but lower crime in bars as criminals will think twice before coming in a bar that says "We welcome CCW holders" on their front door.