CRed05 Posted July 2, 2009 Report Share Posted July 2, 2009 So your agruement is going back to drinking and driving? No, my argument there was that cc holders aren't perfect little angels who can do no harm. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RyM3rC Posted July 2, 2009 Report Share Posted July 2, 2009 Chris, shouldn't you be working? slacker. It's amazing this thread has probably doubled your post count too. I would love to be able to carry in bars and restaurants. Not that I would all the time, and not that I'm looking for a fight. But you know, usually the one time you don't have your firearm is the time you're going to say "holy shit, I really should be carrying right now." It has happened to me a few times, and it will happen a few more. You know what, the 2nd amendment is supposed to give us the right to keep and bear arms. Why doesn't the king of England just hole up in a bar and then we can't do shit to overthrow him, because we can't take guns in there. Grrr. I've got more. I'll let Chris get a few in first. Your turn. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RangerTurbo Posted July 2, 2009 Report Share Posted July 2, 2009 Its illegal to carry while intoxicated, why give people the opportunity to do so? The opportunity isn't being presented. It's not a new revelation either. If a guy has been carrying in a bar for the past ten years he's already extorted that opportunity. This guarantee of legality allows the self controlled legal person the opportunity to protect them and theirs should the occasion present its self where deadly force is needed. Ok. Say you're right. Say there is a CCW (sub criminal in same situation) in the bar. He just found out his wife was cheating. She took all his money. Ran away to Poco Rio. Say the law still forbade him from carrying in the bar. This night however he feels he has nothing to live for and feels like going out with a bang. He now has a gun in the bar where no one else is armed. He opens fire trying to take few people out with him before the cops show up and take him out. He kills 10 people because no one was able to fight back. Now, same situation, only this time CCW in the bar is allowed. 5 other guys are CCing. He opens fire. How many does he kill now before he's taken down? One or two? Which situation sounds better for you? Accepting any loss of life though isn't the right answer, any death in that situation is a horrible thought. However, given the absolute that he will kill someone first, I'd rather there be the opportunity for a law abiding citizen to take him down instead of being forced to hide behind the bar for the Cops to show. Create laws that enforce our Rights as law abiders, but help to restrict and deny felons and criminals. Not that it matters though as the felon and criminal will still obtain weapons, it's their definition of character. Outright denial by law for everyone only keeps the law abiding from having a fair chance, for as I said, they will obediently stay lawful, while the criminal will not. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RyM3rC Posted July 2, 2009 Report Share Posted July 2, 2009 I'm certain I could help you out with many international figures clearly showing how restricting firearms leads to an increased crime rate. I do have to get back to work though. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RyM3rC Posted July 2, 2009 Report Share Posted July 2, 2009 Also, has anyone noticed that the title Arizona is spelled wrong? wtf? Please fix it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CRed05 Posted July 2, 2009 Report Share Posted July 2, 2009 All are very good points, that I have always agreed with why ccw is good. But its like you guys are just throwing out the fact that alcohol is involved. I just cant get over that I dont want ANYONE whose been drinking to have a gun on him. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CRed05 Posted July 2, 2009 Report Share Posted July 2, 2009 Also, has anyone noticed that the title Arizona is spelled wrong? wtf? Please fix it. That was noticed in the first response, lol Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Hal Posted July 2, 2009 Report Share Posted July 2, 2009 I dont think the laws have been out long enough for an issue to come up. Like someone said earlier, once it does, then the ban will be put back on. How long have the laws been in place? Which was the earliest? How many incidents have their been? How long do you need to conduct a proper study on how legalization of CC in bars affects safety? How can you say you agree with the 2nd amendment if you think the right should be infringed upon? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LJ Posted July 2, 2009 Report Share Posted July 2, 2009 All are very good points, that I have always agreed with why ccw is good. But its like you guys are just throwing out the fact that alcohol is involved. I just cant get over that I dont want ANYONE whose been drinking to have a gun on him. 78% of the states allow it... irrational fear Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Hal Posted July 2, 2009 Report Share Posted July 2, 2009 All are very good points, that I have always agreed with why ccw is good. But its like you guys are just throwing out the fact that alcohol is involved. I just cant get over that I dont want ANYONE whose been drinking to have a gun on him. I can get drunk a ton of places that aren't bars, alcohol is readily available and yet I do not drink and carry. You're all hung up of the significance of what everyone else is doing in the establishment. You are still assuming that a normal law abiding CCW holder (who passed an FBI background check usually) will just decide to break the law because they enter an establishment that only serves alcohol. Alcohol doesn't seem to have much to do with the laws either: I can get drunk and stand out in a parking lot waving my gun around and only receive a misdemeanor. I can enter an establishment that sells alcohol to be consumed on the premises, never take a sip, and receive a felony. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RyM3rC Posted July 2, 2009 Report Share Posted July 2, 2009 That was noticed in the first response, lol oops, I burned through the first 4 pages so I didn't get caught on CR at work haha. No, alcohol and guns do not mix. I will never let anyone shoot with me if I think their judgement is impaired, nor will I offer them instruction if I think they're otherwise irresponsible. I'm thinking Chris that if CCW is allowed in alcohol serving places, you would still be prohibited if you consume though. Was that mentioned earlier? I though it was...? Seems to make sense except for that little thing you mentioned earlier (that people go to bars with the intent to drink). Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Hal Posted July 2, 2009 Report Share Posted July 2, 2009 oops, I burned through the first 4 pages so I didn't get caught on CR at work haha. No, alcohol and guns do not mix. I will never let anyone shoot with me if I think their judgement is impaired, nor will I offer them instruction if I think they're otherwise irresponsible. I'm thinking Chris that if CCW is allowed in alcohol serving places, you would still be prohibited if you consume though. Was that mentioned earlier? I though it was...? Seems to make sense except for that little thing you mentioned earlier (that people go to bars with the intent to drink). Consumption would be prohibited. People don't always go to bars intending to drink. Some people go to bars intending to drive their friends home. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RyM3rC Posted July 2, 2009 Report Share Posted July 2, 2009 Consumption would be prohibited. People don't always go to bars intending to drink. Some people go to bars intending to drive their friends home. That sounds about right. I can't ever remember having consuming (alcohol) in a bar before. Maybe I should get a super CCW permit! I need to clip my fingernails. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bobby Lee Posted July 2, 2009 Report Share Posted July 2, 2009 But its like you guys are just throwing out the fact that alcohol is involved. You're exactly right. We are throwing it out. Why? Because the law regarding CCW does as well. Carrying and drinking is not allowed, simple as that. Doesn't matter if your at church or a bar, in order to carry legally, you don't drink. Since no one else referenced this, I suppose I will. http://www.gleamingedge.com/mirrors/onsheepwolvesandsheepdogs.html Absolutely perfect outlook on the 2nd Amendment and our right to defend ourselves and others. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CRed05 Posted July 2, 2009 Report Share Posted July 2, 2009 That sounds about right. I can't ever remember having consuming (alcohol) in a bar before. Maybe I should get a super CCW permit! I need to clip my fingernails. In a bar? Youve NEVER had alcohol ever, Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RangerTurbo Posted July 2, 2009 Report Share Posted July 2, 2009 In a bar? Youve NEVER had alcohol ever, So if they've had a drink at the bar before, that means they drink there everytime? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CRed05 Posted July 2, 2009 Report Share Posted July 2, 2009 So if they've had a drink at the bar before, that means they drink there everytime? What? No, Rymer is a friend of mine, and he doesnt drink at all. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
87GT Posted July 2, 2009 Report Share Posted July 2, 2009 No, my argument there was that cc holders aren't perfect little angels who can do no harm. Guess what we changed the laws for driving. If you ever take a sip of alcohol you can't drive until you attend 5 AA meetings. Everyone knows that if you take a sip of alcohol that you become a raging alcoholic. Your logic makes as much sense as my post. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rayman Posted July 3, 2009 Report Share Posted July 3, 2009 http://www.krnv.com/Global/story.asp?s=8379527 "Authorities say three men were killed and two others were injured in a shooting at a bar in Winnemucca early Sunday morning. They say the shooting stemmed from a longstanding feud between several local families. Winnemucca Police Chief Bob Davidson says a man entered Players Bar and Grill and fatally shot two members of a rival family before he was shot and killed by a patron. All three were pronounced dead at the scene. Police identified the deceased shooter as 30-year-old Ernesto Villagomez. Police identified the other two victims were as 20-year-old Jose Torres and his 19-year-old brother, Margarito Torres. All three were from Winnemucca. A 34-year-old man and a 22-year-old woman were listed in stable condition with gunshot wounds at the Winnemucca hospital. Their names weren't immediately released. The 48-year-old patron from Reno who killed the shooter was initially taken into custody as a person of interest, but was later released after Humboldt County District Attorney Russell Smith determined the shooting was justifiable homicide. The shootings are under investigation." From other articles - Reno is a ccw holder. Shot and killed the gunman when the gunman was reloading. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
verse Posted July 3, 2009 Report Share Posted July 3, 2009 http://www.krnv.com/Global/story.asp?s=8379527 "Authorities say three men were killed and two others were injured in a shooting at a bar in Winnemucca early Sunday morning. They say the shooting stemmed from a longstanding feud between several local families. Winnemucca Police Chief Bob Davidson says a man entered Players Bar and Grill and fatally shot two members of a rival family before he was shot and killed by a patron. All three were pronounced dead at the scene. Police identified the deceased shooter as 30-year-old Ernesto Villagomez. Police identified the other two victims were as 20-year-old Jose Torres and his 19-year-old brother, Margarito Torres. All three were from Winnemucca. A 34-year-old man and a 22-year-old woman were listed in stable condition with gunshot wounds at the Winnemucca hospital. Their names weren't immediately released. The 48-year-old patron from Reno who killed the shooter was initially taken into custody as a person of interest, but was later released after Humboldt County District Attorney Russell Smith determined the shooting was justifiable homicide. The shootings are under investigation." From other articles - Reno is a ccw holder. Shot and killed the gunman when the gunman was reloading. Read the thread before you post, I already posted that. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CRed05 Posted July 3, 2009 Report Share Posted July 3, 2009 Yes I do... b/c they were in states that don't allow bar carry. Therefore are criminals, not law abiding citizens. Not to mention it would say in the article due to media being anti-gun. They'd take any chance to try to make CHL holders look bad. I actually take my "fair enough" reply back because it was still proving my point that just because you have a ccw doesnt mean that you arent human and that anyone can still make mistakes, concealed weapon carrier or not. But I digress. I'm not as strongly apposed to it as I originally was. The fact that there is already a law prohibiting being intoxicated and carrying is good enough for me, not perfect, but acceptable. There will be instances proving that ccw in a bar is great, but there will be instances proving it a bad idea. Where my biggest problem was someone carrying while intoxicated, seems to be already covered. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RyM3rC Posted July 3, 2009 Report Share Posted July 3, 2009 (edited) What? No, Rymer is a friend of mine, and he doesnt drink at all. I don't know this guy, don't listen to a word he says. Damn Audi people... No, no alcohol for me, seriously. Tastes like gasoline to me, I must be allergic or something. I don't know. Edited July 3, 2009 by RyM3rC geez, can't I spell? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
verse Posted July 3, 2009 Report Share Posted July 3, 2009 There will be instances proving that ccw in a bar is great, but there will be instances proving it a bad idea. Where my biggest problem was someone carrying while intoxicated, seems to be already covered. But the fact that 39 states already have laws allowing carrying and there has been no instances involving a CCW holder that has not been justified. If you're too naive to think that the media would not put in an article that the shooter had a CCW you're wrong. Whether or not they were anti or pro-gun, a story is a story and the media is going to put it in there. Plus the media has the ability to search certain names to see whether or not they have a CHL. There are no lists, but reporters can check names. (my brother is a deputy in the CCW office at Franklin County) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RangerTurbo Posted July 3, 2009 Report Share Posted July 3, 2009 Where my biggest problem was someone carrying while intoxicated, seems to be already covered. Ah HA! See, thats your biggest problem. You think this allows people to carry in the bar and drink. The flaw is: It's already illegal in Ohio to drink and carry. Being able to carry in the bar doesn't now cancel out the drink/carry law. If someone is going to carry in a bar and drink and break the law, then they're not going to worry about any other laws (for or against carry and drinking). If they are going to do it now, they've already done it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Eye_of_the_Beholder Posted July 3, 2009 Report Share Posted July 3, 2009 (edited) Arizona is a trip. I lived in Apache Junction (wasn't corporated until 1969, I think) last town on 60 eastbound before you head into no man's land, the Superstition Mountains. In AZ it is legal to have farm animals (except hogs) on 1/2 an acre. On friday and saturday nights, drive past the roadhouse and see pick up trucks in the lot and then around the building...horses. All of them saddled up and tethered to hitching posts just like the good old days. They would ACTUALLY get cited for riding while intoxicated, most thought the could just jump on their pony and it would take them home...but some horses are NOT that smart and would end up going for a walkabout....out into the desert. Helicopters with Infrared Heat Detection and people on horseback, ATVs, sheriffs you name it. And THAT isn't even talking about the MethLabs! Edited July 3, 2009 by Eye_of_the_Beholder typo Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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