40mpg six-speed turbo sedan for $19k?

[flippy1974]

i like it and would buy one in a heartbeat !

[Ry_Trapp01647545522]

don't like it, fawkin ugly! that, and it's a GM. i was really pulling for them for a while, but i realize more and more as time goes on that they are being ran by completely incompetent jackasses and will more than likely continue to make a shit product(first hand experience with a '99 monte carlo 3.1l and current '02 sunfire[AKA, the cavalier with the "make it shittier" package]). now i feel like a moron for supporting the bailout.

if i were in the market for a car this size, and i did like the cruze, i would still wait for the redesigned ford focus. it's bound to be a much better car, even though the cruze will beat it in sales(because americans actually are stupid).

Honestly, I think you'll see HCCI and ethanol injection before you see widespread passenger car diesel applications.

it sure seems like a 'race to last place' between the 2. it doesn't seem like any automaker is really putting forth a whole lot of effort to get diesels cars over here or to develop a production worthy HCCI engine. i've read about numerous manufacturers having HCCI prototypes(ford had an HCCI explorer in the late 90's for example), but it always seemed like they treated more as 'toys' rather than future development.

[Mallard]

don't like it, fawkin ugly! that, and it's a GM. i was really pulling for them for a while, but i realize more and more as time goes on that they are being ran by completely incompetent jackasses and will more than likely continue to make a shit product(first hand experience with a '99 monte carlo 3.1l and current '02 sunfire[AKA, the cavalier with the "make it shittier" package]). now i feel like a moron for supporting the bailout.

if i were in the market for a car this size, and i did like the cruze, i would still wait for the redesigned ford focus. it's bound to be a much better car, even though the cruze will beat it in sales(because americans actually are stupid).

So you lost hope for a GM turn around because of your 99 Monte Carlo and 02 Sunfire? Honestly, go drive a new Equinox, Regal, Lacrosse, CTS, and maybe a few other's I'm forgetting.

 

it sure seems like a 'race to last place' between the 2. it doesn't seem like any automaker is really putting forth a whole lot of effort to get diesels cars over here or to develop a production worthy HCCI engine. i've read about numerous manufacturers having HCCI prototypes(ford had an HCCI explorer in the late 90's for example), but it always seemed like they treated more as 'toys' rather than future development.

 

I think they're pretty serious about HCCI. GM has had a Saturn Aura with a production based HCCI engine in it for at least 2-3 years. They have been refining the control and and calibration and now it runs on a very wide speed range. There may have been HCCI prototypes in the 1990's, but I don't think the engine technology was there to support it. Remember, there were DI prototypes in the 1980's and that's just reached production recently. Also, Fiat had been working on MultiAir for something like 15 years, and that's just coming out. ECU's and sensors are becoming increasingly complex to be able to handle the calibrations necessary to control these technologies properly, which wasn't available in the 1990's.

 

The problem with diesels is the emmission control systems are complex and expensive. With HCCI you could get similar efficiency without adding ~$4k to the sticker price.

[FyrhzrdGT]

Mercedes Benz is making good progress with the Blutec, "adblue" additive (urea injection). They are putting it on highway Semi-Trucks in europe. The cost of the additive is coming down as well. It's mental expensive from the MB dealer but you can buy it from the VW dealer for 1/4 the price and buy it from Shell online for even less.

 

I wasn't under the impression multiair is for HCCI, it is just similar to BMWs valvetronic.

 

Lotus has a really cool HCCI engine simulator online, let me find it.

 

edit: http://www.grouplotus.com/manageshowcase/uploadpassthru/8628.swf

enjoy

[Mallard]

I wasn't under the impression multiair is for HCCI, it is just similar to BMWs valvetronic.

 

Multi-Air is not specifically for HCCI, although being able to control valve lift and duration sounds like a necessity for HCCI. Multi-Air is a variable valve lift and duration system, and IMO it's much more advanced than Valvetronic. It allows variable lift and duration, but it can also alter the cam profile, which Valvetronic can't do. Multi-air is one small step from going camless.

 

I brought it up because it's been in development for 15 years and it's just now reaching production. I thought it's a good comparisonto you saying there were HCCI prototypes in the late '90's.

[Orion]

I love it when threads get smart. Bravo Mallard and Jonesy.

[Ry_Trapp01647545522]

So you lost hope for a GM turn around because of your 99 Monte Carlo and 02 Sunfire? Honestly, go drive a new Equinox, Regal, Lacrosse, CTS, and maybe a few other's I'm forgetting.

 

 

 

I think they're pretty serious about HCCI. GM has had a Saturn Aura with a production based HCCI engine in it for at least 2-3 years. They have been refining the control and and calibration and now it runs on a very wide speed range. There may have been HCCI prototypes in the 1990's, but I don't think the engine technology was there to support it. Remember, there were DI prototypes in the 1980's and that's just reached production recently. Also, Fiat had been working on MultiAir for something like 15 years, and that's just coming out. ECU's and sensors are becoming increasingly complex to be able to handle the calibrations necessary to control these technologies properly, which wasn't available in the 1990's.

 

The problem with diesels is the emmission control systems are complex and expensive. With HCCI you could get similar efficiency without adding ~$4k to the sticker price.

no, i lost hope when i came to the realization that all of their vehicles are mediocre at best. even their top vehicles are nothing more than 'average' vs their competition. i mean, both the aveo and cobalt are crap, the malibu is middle of the pack, the impala is crap, and both the new camaro and the corvette have a reputation for their subpar interiors. the lacrosse and lucerne are mediocre, and the enclave is crap. the STS is still a 2004 model that was mediocre when it first came out, the DTS is junk, the SRX is mediocre, the escalade has always been mediocre(as if rappers cared about interior quality).

GMs great cars are great cars - for GM. vs the competition how ever, they are mediocre at best(cadillac still has a ways to go to match BMW, audi, and MB, even with the CTS). who knows, maybe the cruze will be a class leader for once, but i'm certainly not getting my hopes up.

 

 

good to know that there is still some working going on with HCCI, haven't look into it in a while. i think that OEMs were just being lazy with DI too, considering how long diesels have used it.

[Fubar231]

I dont know, i wouldnt buy the car caus its not my style but its definitely a step in the right direction.

 

And how come everyone thinks its turbo'd it needs to be wycked tyte mad jdm fast.

 

Using a small displacement engine for the gas milage with a turbo to get it enough oomph to get on the freeway makes plenty on sense, unless the cars just that big of a turd you have to stay in boost to drive 65. But it makes sense to me.

[FyrhzrdGT]

Multi-Air is not specifically for HCCI, although being able to control valve lift and duration sounds like a necessity for HCCI. Multi-Air is a variable valve lift and duration system, and IMO it's much more advanced than Valvetronic. It allows variable lift and duration, but it can also alter the cam profile, which Valvetronic can't do. Multi-air is one small step from going camless.

 

I brought it up because it's been in development for 15 years and it's just now reaching production. I thought it's a good comparisonto you saying there were HCCI prototypes in the late '90's.

 

Going camless will be a great day. I look forward to it, I believe Fiat showed a Multi-Air motor at Detroit. VVT is for pusses, infinitely variable lift and timing will be awesome. I'm waiting for the inevitable "it'll be so expensive to fix" post from someone on here that has worked on a few too many SBCs lol.

 

Valvetronic is less advanced, but has been in production for the past decade so BMW has been getting pretty good at using it. I think the new N55 will be the first turbo motor to use the technology. I'll be interested to see where BMW takes Valvetronic and how successful Multi-Air is initially. Fiat seems to have done more homework, but bmw is out there using the technology in thousands of cars.

 

Click my lotus link, its very cool.

[Mallard]

Going camless will be a great day. I look forward to it, I believe Fiat showed a Multi-Air motor at Detroit. VVT is for pusses, infinitely variable lift and timing will be awesome. I'm waiting for the inevitable "it'll be so expensive to fix" post from someone on here that has worked on a few too many SBCs lol.

Multi-Air is not quite infinitely variable, but it allows a very large range of variation. It's maximum lift and duration is limited to the lobe of the camshaft, but it can do almost anything in-between (plus you could use a cam phaser to widen the range a little).

 

FWIW, the best man in my wedding has been working on camless engines for the last ~3 years. The technology is getting close.

 

Click my lotus link, its very cool.

 

Yeah, the Omnivore is pretty cool!

[FyrhzrdGT]

I cut that paragraph up, the infinitely variable comment refers to going completely camless. I understand systems like multiair and valvetronic still have a physical camshaft.

[byhi]

MPG's are the only rewarding aspect of this car. Luckily they put in a decent price range. Everything else is garbage. Why won't people realize that a 6 speed (now NOT uncommon) and a turbo (seriously 1.4 liter?) don't make it an instant awsome car. I mean Chevy knows it's not a performance model, why doesn't every other living being on the planet realize that too? Edited June 8, 2010 by byhi