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[Scotty2Hotty]

So, the Army and its infinate wisdom, is bringing the M4A1 to conventional units. In addition to buying new M4A1's, there is going to be a retro-fit kit, the small arms shop will be busy converting M4 Carbines into M4A1's. What this means, is the 3-round burst selection, will be replaced with AUTO. Fully automatic fire is being brought back to the standard rifleman.

http://www.stripes.com/news/army-service-rifles-getting-significant-upgrades-1.123290

 

Upgrades to the M4 include a more resilient barrel, ambidextrous controls and a full-automatic setting. Add better ammunition, and soldiers will have a more lethal weapon to fight insurgents.

My opinion = I like my M4 since it's light and compact enough to get in and out of the vehicles I utilize in my job.(Not to mention I have an M203 that sits underneath) 5.56X45mm is a NATO mistake. Fully automatic fire can be handled by the M249's, M240B's, and M2's. I think there should be a push for a PDW weapon/cartridge like what H&K and Knights Armament has availible. If NATO didn't have the US by the nuts, we'd go back to the old days of .45ACP and 7.62X51mm chambered weapons. Like most things, this is a waste of tax payer money, like the ACU or Army Combat Uniform along with the M1114/M1151 HMMWV (Humvee). Maybe one day, our powers that be upstairs might listen to Joe on the ground.

[unfunnyryan]

are all the M4s being converted to M4A1s or will there be leftover/surplus guns? I guess its doubtful they would make it very far to the civilian market with burst anyways I guess.

[Scotty2Hotty]

are all the M4s being converted to M4A1s or will there be leftover/surplus guns? I guess its doubtful they would make it very far to the civilian market with burst anyways I guess.

 

I think it's going to be one of those, "Army testing" kinda things. Like for instance, the Multicam uniform is being fielded by the units replacing me. The Army likes to give units equipment to test, then they reflect upon their collected data. As they state, 500,000 M4's, will get the M4A1 treatment, but it's a 5 year phase. I would assume if the M4A1 is to be the newest rifle for the Army, units requiring new small arms will have the NSN # to order the M4A1 straight from Colt. The M4A1 has been around for a while, so assuming you had a Class III license, you could get one from Colt. So far the civilian market has been fortuate and reaped all the benefits from the firearms market trying to make Version X of a weapon for the military. Examples like the SCAR, ACR, Benelli M4, and the slew of .45 ACP auto pistols, exist thanks to them trying to score military contracts.

 

PS- There will be plenty of M4 Carbines swimming around the Army supply system/small arms shops for some time. Our stockpiles of M14's aren't 100% gone, but they've been run through.

[carl1647545492]

Cut and paste from full article here on the 5.56 vs 7.62 cartridge http://www.globalsecurity.org/military/library/report/1986/MVT.htm

Fire power is normally equated with maximum "steel" on target, not with

maximum steel in the general direction of the target. Full

automatic fire with the 5.56mm NATO just as wasteful and

Confirming this view is the fact that second generation assault

rifles, such as the U. S. M16A2 and Belgian FN FNC, are not

employing a 3-shot burst control in lieu of a full automatic

capability.24 With this burst control feature, a thirty round

magazine produces only ten bursts. Do we need thirty rounds to

successfully hit and incapacitate ten enemy targets? Even with

3-shot burst control and the lower impulse of the 5.56mm

ammunition, shot dispersion is still too large to be effective.

Perhaps a single well-aimed 147 grain 7.62mm bullet would have

more effect than three rounds of 5.56mm fired in the burst

control mode. As a result, the lower recoil and impulse of the

5.56mm ammuntion does not provide greater fire power since full

automatic fire from an individual assault rifle is largely

ineffective and only wastes ammunition.

[Scotty2Hotty]

Cut and paste from full article here on the 5.56 vs 7.62 cartridge http://www.globalsecurity.org/military/library/report/1986/MVT.htm

Fire power is normally equated with maximum "steel" on target, not with

maximum steel in the general direction of the target. Full

automatic fire with the 5.56mm NATO just as wasteful and

Confirming this view is the fact that second generation assault

rifles, such as the U. S. M16A2 and Belgian FN FNC, are not

employing a 3-shot burst control in lieu of a full automatic

capability.24 With this burst control feature, a thirty round

magazine produces only ten bursts. Do we need thirty rounds to

successfully hit and incapacitate ten enemy targets? Even with

3-shot burst control and the lower impulse of the 5.56mm

ammunition, shot dispersion is still too large to be effective.

Perhaps a single well-aimed 147 grain 7.62mm bullet would have

more effect than three rounds of 5.56mm fired in the burst

control mode. As a result, the lower recoil and impulse of the

5.56mm ammuntion does not provide greater fire power since full

automatic fire from an individual assault rifle is largely

ineffective and only wastes ammunition.

 

:thumbup: Exactly!

The US Army was headed in a great direction when it came up with a Designated Marksman and had a few rifles for the job. Now, they're swaying back to Vietnam era thinking with this "wall of lead" theory. I commend the British Ministry of Defense for purchasing a large amount of 7.62X51mm rifles from LMT in Chicago. They're developing their Designated Marksman program more than anyone has in the past. So far, I hear them and the Ghurkas are tearing up some Taliban.

[unfunnyryan]

:thumbup: Exactly!

The US Army was headed in a great direction when it came up with a Designated Marksman and had a few rifles for the job. Now, they're swaying back to Vietnam era thinking with this "wall of lead" theory. I commend the British Ministry of Defense for purchasing a large amount of 7.62X51mm rifles from LMT in Chicago. They're developing their Designated Marksman program more than anyone has in the past. So far, I hear them and the Ghurkas are tearing up some Taliban.

 

+1, I don't see why you should put anyone on the line at all when you have the capabilities of doing from quite a distance away.

 

Well, what I mean by that, sir, is... if you was to put me and this here sniper rifle anywhere up to and including one mile of Adolf Hitler with a clear line of sight, sir... pack your bags, fellas, war's over. Amen.

[Scotty2Hotty]

+1, I don't see why you should put anyone on the line at all when you have the capabilities of doing from quite a distance away.

 

One way or another, in a combat environment, you're going to have to close in with the enemy/hostile force. There's no way around it, no matter how much thinking and planning go into it. At some point, you'll end up almost an arms distance. With the advent of the Fully Automatic capabilities, the ratios will turn ugly. The US Army has come around in doctorine and thought in a wide spectrum battle field like Iraq/Trashcanistan. Accuracy and shot placement, on top of controlled pairs in close combat showed proof of current procedures. I don't see a problem with the weapons themselves, other than premature barrel wear, firing pin issues, and the ever so popular magazine follower issue. Will a young cherry in his first firefight be selecting targets as rounds crack over head? Doubt it. That M4 will snap to AUTO, and before he knows it, a tradition battle load of 210 rounds is gone in under 5 minutes, with nothing to show.

 

Point being, it's something that is unnecessary to a conventional force. If the bearded boys want automatic fire, let em' have it in their shorty, fire breathing M4's.

[KentStateTsi]

Our unit had A1's waiting for us when we got here. I see the 10th mountain guys wearing the multi-cam and I have mixed feeling about it. I hate all of RC east, i'm home in 3 weeks.

[Scotty2Hotty]

Our unit had A1's waiting for us when we got here. I see the 10th mountain guys wearing the multi-cam and I have mixed feeling about it. I hate all of RC east, i'm home in 3 weeks.

 

We've got the advanced party already here from the unit replacing us in Kabul. It's too bad the Multicam uniform is being built by the same clowns building our ACU's. I've been hearing RC East has been a bit interesting this past year. Boring is an understatement for Kabul, since NATO/Turks/High Brass run this cluster of an AO.

[KentStateTsi]

Thats good man, at least you'll be out soon too. I'd have to say i'm not a fan of the A1 though. Just what we need is a bunch of cherries popping all 210 rounds in a matter of minutes. I'll stick with my 240H for a machine gun.

[Scotty2Hotty]

Thats good man, at least you'll be out soon too. I'd have to say i'm not a fan of the A1 though. Just what we need is a bunch of cherries popping all 210 rounds in a matter of minutes. I'll stick with my 240H for a machine gun.

 

You'll probably start noticing less of the Mountain Deer patches running around. We almost got some 9mm chambered 7" uppers for our PSD mission, but somehow they "disappeared". I have a feeling supply was in on it along with the bearded boys. I'm all for the ACR becoming the new Army battle rifle, thanks to the modularity of it.