Springfield M21 vs Springfield M1A national match: decisions decisions

[EVILGTP98]

Rounding up the cash now but got a tough decision to make, got a hell of a deal on a M21 from a local shop, say 2800 out door for an M21, from my research damn good deal. Originally was obsessed with M1A national match till I came across the M21 so I need some advice on the differences and should I spend the extra for the M21. End goal will be an EBR chassis setup with most likely a leupold mark 4 scope, wanting to get into shooting 1000 yards, not daily but every now and again, basically a distance rifle. Sell me on one or the other, really leaning twards the M21 for rarity as well as its an M21, come on but can I justify the extra???

 

Thanks

[Scotty2Hotty]

I can't remember if the M21 is already set up, but I do remember it has an adjustable stock/cheek pad, bipod, and should come with some glass. The National Match is set up to run out at Camp Perry out of the box. Heavier stock and heavier barrel for increased long distance accuracy. If you are really wanting to do the Sage EBR setup, I'd buy a standard M1A and build it from there. The Sage stock will set you back an easy $700, rifle $1400-$1600, and if you can track down a Leupold Mark 4, that'll be another $1,200+. Almost any standard length M1A has a capability of 1,000 yards with the right ammo. Crazy Horse aka Smith Enterprise was the first company building the M21 EBR set up for the US Military. Check them out if you really want to go EBR. If not, the M21 will be what you need and ready to run out of the box.

[RyM3rC]

Not the best platform for distance shooting, and certainly not even in the top 10 in that price range. If you really really want something like an M14 I can understand that.

 

Have you checked around the webz for used EBR builds? There are usually quit a bit of folks that build these, spend a ton of money, and never shoot them before selling them. In my experience it's not all that difficult to shoot an M1A well, but they are very expensive to build, and fussy to keep going unless it's just a safe-to-bench gun.

[EVILGTP98]

As the day gets closer to having the cash I really do wonder if this is a good way to go, I really like the M1A/M21 setup and really like the EBR setup but I dont want to get into a huge headache keeping it going. Throw up suggestions for a good 308 caliber rifle for similar price. Life is hard, lol.

[stangsn95gt]

Lots of reviews here http://www.snipercentral.com/rifles.htm

[stangsn95gt]

Also are you looking for semi auto only or is a bolt gun ok

[RyM3rC]

If I were spending that kind of money I'd spend some more time looking into platforms. I'd recommend going here: http://lightfighter.net and searching the precision forum.

 

If it were me I'd be looking at the AR platform, like an offering from LaRue, KAC, etc.

 

Here is an example of a search you might want to use: search lf.net

 

You find some of the most authoritative people on that weapons system there, and they're not all that fond of it. I have an M1A and will never let it go. It is not the first thing I pick up for making holes in paper far away.

Edited December 30, 2011 by RyM3rC

[Mowgli1647545497]

M1A. No contest. Own one myself, in a Sage EBR chassis. Fantastic gun. Heavy as fuck though.

[KillJoy]

If you are going to modify it.... get the cheapest and make it what you want. No need to pay more and not use what is included...

 

KillJoy

[Furloaf]

Don't spend that much for an M1A, the money would be better spent getting an M14 with a forged receiver (Smith Enterprises, LRB, Fulton) that is much closer to being in spec than the Springfields and have a higher potential for accuracy. Also if you plan on putting it in a Sage or other chassis/stock system, then it is pointless to pay for the bedded stocks of the NM or M21.

[RyM3rC]

Don't spend that much for an M1A, the money would be better spent getting an M14 with a forged receiver (Smith Enterprises, LRB, Fulton) that is much closer to being in spec than the Springfields and have a higher potential for accuracy. Also if you plan on putting it in a Sage or other chassis/stock system, then it is pointless to pay for the bedded stocks of the NM or M21.

 

LOL! I'd say the high-end M1As (LRB, smith, etc) are a little better than "In Spec" hahahah! More like custom-built, match grade! Way way way better than an "In spec" 4 MOA rack-grade M14 ever was!

[Furloaf]

Yes. My point is that with the NM+ M1A price point you enter into the entry level builds of the LRB, Smiths, Fultons, etc., and have a much better starting platform.

[Scotty2Hotty]

Personally, my M1A is my go to rifle. If you want some other .308/7.62 chambered rifles the LMT308MWS, Larue OBR, Winchester Model 70 (Carlos Hathcock's famous rifle), Savage 10FP, Remington 700, etc etc etc.. If you want a great rifle with a capability of 1,000 meters, the M1A can do it. Past that, you're getting out of the effective range of the .308/7.62 catridge. Anything further, think .30-06 to .300 Win Mag. I'm assuming you're leaning towards a semi-auto rifle. With that said, you'll be tickled pink with an M1A.

[EVILGTP98]

Thanks for all the input guys, I am not set on a semi auto, was leaning twards it but I would settle for a bolt gun as well. I just keep going over it and I really like the m1a ebr setup as far as a long range platform. I aint looking for a 100 percent precision rifle, more just something to shoot 100 to 1000 and can put a couple on target I would be happy. Gonna try out a bolt savage tomarrow and hopefully LWRC Reaper as well see what I think of em.

[Scotty2Hotty]

Since you're not 100% set on the action, I'll kick it up a notch.

 

http://www.surgeonrifles.com/

[Nate1647545505]

Here's my two cents from an EBR owner, and a bolt gun owner (sub MOA).

 

I've spent a fair share of time (and $, sweat, and tears) with both platforms. If you want to drive tacks at 800-1000, go bolt. I shit you not, my bolt (700 series accurized by Tactical Operations) has connected at Thunder Valley's 1000 yd range easily and repetitively (even with me shooting).

 

However, I send it back to Mike yearly for checkups, and cleaning happens often, and usually takes 3-4 hours and sometimes days to measure clearances, check for throat erosion, etc. It's not a weapon you can take out and shoot, run a snake through, and put it away and expect to operate in the sub MOA range. For that reason, it only gets shot a few times a year, and mainly stays in the safe. Its kind like a dyno queen, sips only the finest, but has the hole-on-hole targets to prove its worth.

 

I started with a standard M1A from Springfield and slowly built it up while I was at OCS. From the factory on 147gr the rifle would hold about a 4-5" group. With 168gr BTHP it was around 4", steady. We switched the piston, added Troy's battlerail and did a bedding job and found this dropped the groups down to about 3.5". I'll be honest, I wasn't impressed.

 

The M1/M14/M1A was never supposed to drive tack, it was held to a standard of a 7" group. Before anyone get's defensive, this is a field gun. It can be put through hell and cycle just fine. It's a grease gun, so, it's kind of neat coming from the AR world. Now, you can't deny some of the amazing things the bench rest (NRA, CMP, etc) have accomplished. There are M1/M14/25/1A's out there that can rival bolt guns --at the cost of tightening the clearances that it’s not a field rifle anymore, it's another safe warmer. It's been know that some of the guys will even go as far as making the cases symmetrical as possible, measuring wall thickness, even polishing them. Fulton's done some builds that have a radial clearance (round in chamber) of something like .0007".

 

Quick side tangent: depending on barrel, most M1's like the 168gr+, which becomes subsonic and starts to pitch/yaw past 800 yards. You'll be looking at moving to M118LR or equivalent for a low BC and velocity/integrity to shoot reliably at 1000.

 

Now, this year, we moved to the sage EBR, did a little tweaking on the stock (non match) barrel with the throat, headspace, and timing. We tightened up some of the clearances just a wee bit, not too much. We focused on symmetry and trying to curve barrel vibration and force moment on the barrel's vertical and horizontal plane.

 

We only have about 15 rounds of 147gr M80 through her for sighting purposes, but, we are pleased to see 2.5" groups on this ammo. My brother just did a final inspection and loctite'ed everything down for the 168gr match loads. Hopefully we'll see 1.5-2" steady on the 168.

 

There's a SS DMR barrel for next year, so, it'll be a road to 118LR.

[Scotty2Hotty]

Nate,

Palmetto State Armory usually keeps M118LR in stock. BTW, you start that thing you had spoke of?

[Nate1647545505]

Nate,

Palmetto State Armory usually keeps M118LR in stock. BTW, you start that thing you had spoke of?

 

I'll have to keep that in mind, I just picked up some XM855 from them.

 

We switched around some optics, my brother has the Nikon I ran mounted to a my grandfather's 1908 serive rifle. I wanted to stay sub 1,000$ this year and ended up with a Ziess.

 

Nothing against Vortex, but the Ziess grabbed more light for a 1" tube with a small obj.

[Scotty2Hotty]

Nice! You still thinking about starting a business or doing parts?

 

My next M1A will get the Troy or Sage set up. I got a bit of range time with the Sage, so I'm leaning that way. I'll go standard this time, and keep the Scout the way she is, minus a CCO of some sort.

[Nate1647545505]

My brother has his business license, tax id, yatta yatta. He's been an FFL for a few years but he's been trying to move into Class 2 and Class 3 status. The ATF takes their time, though.

 

He's raising a one year old and working full time right now, we both are working on the side to build a website, stock parts, etc. We both would like to be in a store front and to build a range, but for right now it looks like e-comm and small jobs are the way to start out.

[Scotty2Hotty]

Whenever ya'll get up and running, I'll start buying. I need to finish a couple AR's before my next M1A and the Scout go under the knife.

[EVILGTP98]

Thanks for all the input guys, was at the range all day yesterday and got to shoot a buddies LWRC REPR and I am leaning in this direction. Gun fired excellent, simple operation and I have used AR platforms for years so nothing new as far as manipulation. You can pick up Magpul mags for 15 bucks each and to me just seemed like a better route to go. The M21 seemed like a good option but again, after alot of research it just does not seem to suit the need I really want it to. I like to take my toys out and shoot, come back, clean em up and wait for the next range day. I will keep ya posted on which way I am gonna head as soon as I figure it out.