LEO kills wrong man after knocking on the wrong door

[sol740]

I don't see it in the same light as you do. They didn't creep in like a burglar, nor kick in the door guns blazing like a robbery. If the man came at the officers brandishing a weapon, they had the right to defend themselves also and this is where I have the issue. Everyone is quick to place full blame on the officers. I am not saying they are 100% in the right, but I don't accept that they are 100% at fault either. BOTH parties are to blame in this situation.

 

I completely agree that both parties share blame, however in this case one of the parties is dead, so whatever mistake he made, he paid with his life. The police involved must be punished for causing the situation.

[87GT]

gillbot why did you avoid my answering my question?

[copperhead]

There's always the possibility the cops went in with a shoot first, ask questions later mentality, then added the victim's gun to the scene after the fact (throw down gun). This story doesn't really add up.

[Green Bastard]

just my .02, the cops should have verified that's where the suspect was, that or announce from cover who they were. even though it was an accident they should still be charged, just like if you were in a car accident that killed someone, (if you were at fault) you would most likely be charged with involuntary manslaughter. on the flip side, the guy should not have answered the door with the gun directly visable, and if he were in fact pointing the gun at the officers, then it would have been self defence. but maybe they shouldn't have chosen to shoot to kill.

[Otis Nice]

defence

 

http://onemillionlyrics.com/images/d/d-fence--img-m27cd37fbd693ed60fa75b4378d1863fb.jpg

[KennyFKINPowerz]

I completely agree that both parties share blame, however in this case one of the parties is dead, so whatever mistake he made, he paid with his life. The police involved must be punished for causing the situation.

 

Agreed

[gillbot]

gillbot why did you avoid my answering my question?

Either I didn't care enough to bother, or I didn't care enough to single it out to be answered.

just my .02, the cops should have verified that's where the suspect was, that or announce from cover who they were. even though it was an accident they should still be charged, just like if you were in a car accident that killed someone, (if you were at fault) you would most likely be charged with involuntary manslaughter. on the flip side, the guy should not have answered the door with the gun directly visable, and if he were in fact pointing the gun at the officers, then it would have been self defence. but maybe they shouldn't have chosen to shoot to kill.

But why is the blame on the officers? Did they generate the paperwork with the address? They were likely going to the address they were TOLD to go to.

[oh8sti]

Either I didn't care enough to bother, or I didn't care enough to single it out to be answered.

 

But why is the blame on the officers? Did they generate the paperwork with the address? They were likely going to the address they were TOLD to go to.

ITS THIER FUCKING JOB TO MAKE SURE THEY ARE AT THE RIGHT ADDRESS.

[Green Bastard]

Either I didn't care enough to bother, or I didn't care enough to single it out to be answered.

 

But why is the blame on the officers? Did they generate the paperwork with the address? They were likely going to the address they were TOLD to go to.

 

did you miss the part where I said there was some blame on the other guy too? what if it weren't cops and they still shot the guy for they're own protection? any normal guy would have been facing charges for it even if it was self defense. why should it be any different if someone is wearing a badge? they weren't wrong for defending themselves, they should have just shot to put him down imo.

[TTQ B4U]

Honestly what would the officers have done had he not answered the door with a gun pointed at them?

 

Fixed because it's valid question.

[gillbot]

ITS THIER FUCKING JOB TO MAKE SURE THEY ARE AT THE RIGHT ADDRESS.

Typing in all caps, really? I mean really? It really gets your point across so much better.

 

If the officers were told by their supers or whomever that the address was correct, what should they do? Call ahead and ask if Mr. Suspect is available for arresting?

 

If that's the last known good address on file for the suspect, they have to believe it's valid and proceed. However, since we don't have all the facts I am not holding them at fault. They responded to the situation that was presented to them and unfortunately that ended in a loss of life. So many things COULD have happened differently, but they didn't.

did you miss the part where I said there was some blame on the other guy too? what if it weren't cops and they still shot the guy for they're own protection? any normal guy would have been facing charges for it even if it was self defense. why should it be any different if someone is wearing a badge? they weren't wrong for defending themselves, they should have just shot to put him down imo.

What?

Fixed because it's valid question.

If he didn't answer the door with a gun, he may not have been shot. The point is, everyone wants to completely lynch the officers without having all the facts. A guy goes guns blazing in a pizza shop is a hero yet these officers are being lynched for performing their JOB?

[Green Bastard]

I was trying to say if it were a regular person in that situation was knocking on a door at 1:30 am and they shot the guy for pulling a gun that the regular person would be facing charges, even if it was self defense. why should a cop be treated any different? and you said something about the last known address on file, but to read the original post, it kind of makes it sound like they assumed it was his address based on the suspect's motorcycle being parked where it was, I could be wrong, but that's how the op makes it sound.

[oh8sti]

lol sorry, i was on my phone and for some reason it was stuck on caps. Im not that worked up.

 

At any rate, just because they "thought" it was the right address doesn't make them NOT liable for killing this man. They were wrong not matter what. They need to know that. Its the reason we pay them, to be right, not to "think that maybe" the suspect lived there. It was sloppy police work. end of story.

[copperhead]

If the officers were told by their supers or whomever that the address was correct, what should they do? Call ahead and ask if Mr. Suspect is available for arresting?

 

If that's the last known good address on file for the suspect, they have to believe it's valid and proceed. However, since we don't have all the facts I am not holding them at fault. They responded to the situation that was presented to them and unfortunately that ended in a loss of life. So many things COULD have happened differently, but they didn't.

 

From the article:

 

Deputies thought they were confronting Jonathan Brown, a man accused of attempted murder. Brown was spotted at the Blueberry Hills Apartment complex and his motorcycle was parked across from Andrew Scott's front door.

 

sounds like they spotted the guys bike and ASSUMED he was in whatever place it was parked in front of. Because apparently its not possible to walk somewhere else.

 

I think if I were wanted for murder and trying to hide I wouldn't have vehicles registered to me anywhere near where I'm hiding, sitting out in plain sight.

[Otis Nice]

Typing in all caps, really? I mean really? It really gets your point across so much better.

 

I PUNCHED A DESK!

[Green Bastard]

I PUNCHED A DESK!

 

I PUNCHED A LEO!!

[TTQ B4U]

I was trying to say if it were a regular person in that situation was knocking on a door at 1:30 am and they shot the guy for pulling a gun that the regular person would be facing charges, even if it was self defense. why should a cop be treated any different? and you said something about the last known address on file, but to read the original post, it kind of makes it sound like they assumed it was his address based on the suspect's motorcycle being parked where it was, I could be wrong, but that's how the op makes it sound.

 

Citizens and cops in simliar situations aren't treated the same. No different than in many vehicular accidents. If a cop is chasing a bad guy and wrecks, no biggie, but if I'm trying to rush my wife to the hospital, I'm in trouble.

[Green Bastard]

I get what your saying, however the point I'm trying to make is that cops can get away with way more than they should. and in a lot of instances they shouldn't be "above the law".

[KennyFKINPowerz]

Plain and simple. They let their big ass ego heads rush themselves up to this door, probably thinking they were gonna get this guy and were all pumped up. Their lack of training and their ego is what got them in trouble and the reason why they killed an innocent man IN HIS HOME. They should be held accountable. I have been around similar situations and to say they were fearful of their lives is BS. Its an excuse that always gets used. In reality most cops can't wait to get in to some crap. They do it for the adrenaline rush. There is a reason why a lot of cops want to work in bad neighborhoods. I have heard the talk from so many cops that its not even funny. I think these guys were no different and their lack of training made this end in tragedy.

 

What I find hilarious is the people that make all these excuses for them just because they sweat cops nutsacks and probably wanted to be one at one point in their lives and could not quite make it. I bet if that were your wife that was murdered by the police, that you would not be saying the same thing. This shit amazes me. No wonder our country is so fucked up. When a percentage of the population thinks shit like this is ok and justifiable. Any normal citizen would be rotting in jail right now for something like this.

[TTQ B4U]

Plain and simple. They let their big ass ego heads rush themselves up to this door, probably thinking they were gonna get this guy and were all pumped up. Their lack of training and their ego is what got them in trouble and the reason why they killed an innocent man IN HIS HOME.

 

In some cases you might be correct, but there's no evidence nor details to make such a statement in this case. Their training teaches them that if you enter a residence and there's a gun pointed at you to not hesitate or you will likely be dead.

 

Think about it, if someone is willing to point a gun at someone on the other side of the door, their intention whether well intended of protecting family or not, is likely to use said weapon. Add to that situation a LEO who is trained to end situations like that with force and it's never going to end well. In this case if I had to pick one person to die, it's going to be the idiot answering a door without checking the window next to it first so that he can actually see who he's about to point a gun at.

 

 

They should be held accountable. I have been around similar situations and to say they were fearful of their lives is BS. Its an excuse that always gets used. In reality most cops can't wait to get in to some crap.

 

Has anyone said they aren't being held accountable in any way? Due process will take it's course. In terms of fearing for life, you are not in a position to answer that as you were not there, don't know them and aren't a LEO who's job it is day in and day out. In reality your statements are just opinions, which are fine but they are not relavant otherwise without facts.

 

I think these guys were no different and their lack of training made this end in tragedy.

 

So what role did the home owner who was killed play in his own tragedy? Isn't he liable for something? Dude has a window and either made a choice not to see who was out there or didn't care or perhaps he knew and made a choice to be billy bad ass. He had a role in it, whether by choice or not isn't relavant to the outcome. I don't plan on being in a tragic situation either but my actions / reactions are still my actions.

 

I bet if that were your wife that was murdered by the police, that you would not be saying the same thing. Any normal citizen would be rotting in jail right now for something like this.

 

You would be wrong. My wife, nor I would answer a door with a gun in hand if I saw the people outside were LEO's. If we were stupid enough to not check the window and verify it, then the outcome would be part of a possible expectation and a risk we would have obviously been willing to take. That or the two of us could just be dumb ass people that eventually had the Darwin Effect happen to.

 

In terms of normal cititzens, yes, and if you or I banged on his door like this and then killed him, we would be guilty and yes, should be rotting in jail. However, we're not LEO's chasing bad guys in the middle of the night and authorized to do what they did in this situation. You can't compare joe citizen doing this to a LEO peforming his duty.

[KennyFKINPowerz]

In some cases you might be correct, but there's no evidence nor details to make such a statement in this case. Their training teaches them that if you enter a residence and there's a gun pointed at you to not hesitate or you will likely be dead.

 

Think about it, if someone is willing to point a gun at someone on the other side of the door, their intention whether well intended of protecting family or not, is likely to use said weapon. Add to that situation a LEO who is trained to end situations like that with force and it's never going to end well. In this case if I had to pick one person to die, it's going to be the idiot answering a door without checking the window next to it first so that he can actually see who he's about to point a gun at.

 

 

 

 

Has anyone said they aren't being held accountable in any way? Due process will take it's course. In terms of fearing for life, you are not in a position to answer that as you were not there, don't know them and aren't a LEO who's job it is day in and day out. In reality your statements are just opinions, which are fine but they are not relavant otherwise without facts.

 

 

 

So what role did the home owner who was killed play in his own tragedy? Isn't he liable for something? Dude has a window and either made a choice not to see who was out there or didn't care or perhaps he knew and made a choice to be billy bad ass. He had a role in it, whether by choice or not isn't relavant to the outcome. I don't plan on being in a tragic situation either but my actions / reactions are still my actions.

 

 

 

You would be wrong. My wife, nor I would answer a door with a gun in hand if I saw the people outside were LEO's. If we were stupid enough to not check the window and verify it, then the outcome would be part of a possible expectation and a risk we would have obviously been willing to take. That or the two of us could just be dumb ass people that eventually had the Darwin Effect happen to.

 

In terms of normal cititzens, yes, and if you or I banged on his door like this and then killed him, we would be guilty and yes, should be rotting in jail. However, we're not LEO's chasing bad guys in the middle of the night and authorized to do what they did in this situation. You can't compare joe citizen doing this to a LEO peforming his duty.

 

Their training teaches them to get cover if that is a perceived threat. Get cover before anything. In my opinion they went there looking for a fight.

 

Your are right, I am not a LEO but I went through the training and I know a lot of them. I know what they train for in situations like this. I also know how many cops really do go in to situations looking for a fight. You are also right and I was not there so these are just opinions.

 

I dont feel the homeowner played any role in his death. Im not saying that he did not answer the door with a gun. What I am saying is that he was in his own home minding his own business when this situation was brought to him. He is allowed to protect himself and answer his door in any manner that he choses. Not saying its a smart decision but nonetheless it is his right and he is not obligated in any way to have to look out a window or peep hole. He is in his own home. Since when did answering your own door come with guidelines? Again maybe not the smartest choice but it is his right.

 

I think you can compare an LEO to Joe Citizen. There is a reason why officers can be personally sued for what they do on the job. They are held to a higher standard and they know the risks of the job.

 

Did the guy contribute to his own death? Sure. Should it have been this way? Absoluetly not. Who is at fault for the situation? The LEO of course. They were in control of the situation and should have exercised better tactics and this man would still be alive. They made rush decisions that were just poor decisions.

[TTQ B4U]

Their training teaches them to get cover if that is a perceived threat. Get cover before anything. In my opinion they went there looking for a fight.

 

I'll let the LEO's on here chime in with their qualified thoughts. IMO though, I don't think an LEO who is in front of a door that opens and sees a gun pointed at them is going to jump aside first. They are going to nuetralize the threat. Jumping takes more time and energy than squeezing a trigger of a firearm already locked and loaded and pointed in the direction of the target.

 

I'll leave it at this, I'm pulling my trigger first and I bet that offers me better protection than not.

[KennyFKINPowerz]

I'll let the LEO's on here chime in with their qualified thoughts. IMO though, I don't think an LEO who is in front of a door that opens and sees a gun pointed at them is going to jump aside first. They are going to nuetralize the threat. Jumping takes more time and energy than squeezing a trigger of a firearm already locked and loaded and pointed in the direction of the target.

 

I'll leave it at this, I'm pulling my trigger first and I bet that offers me better protection than not.

 

I have been through the training. Pulling your trigger does not keep you from getting shot.

[TTQ B4U]

I have been through the training. Pulling your trigger does not keep you from getting shot.

 

If you've been through gun training then you've likely been taught the Deadly Force Triangle and it does not entail pausing to see if there's a fourth reason to shoot your assailant; nor does it require you jump out of the way or pause for any reason. The cops made a mistake but they weren't in the wrong legally as the dead guy put his own life in danger by threatening them first.

 

The bottom line is a person with a gun pointed at you is an absolute threat to your life and just like in my CCW Class, if they bring capability, opportunity and intent, they are going to be made a non-threat through deadly force and the law will be on the side of the police.

 

Capability - The person has a deadly weapon and in this case, it was in hhand

Opportunity - Person is present - in this case he opened the door

Intent - The person pointed weapon police.

 

This gives the officer the o.k. to use deadly force. Again, the dead guy put those factors in motion and is responsible for his being dead, not the cops; not even by them going to the wrong door.

[gillbot]

In some cases you might be correct, but there's no evidence nor details to make such a statement in this case. Their training teaches them that if you enter a residence and there's a gun pointed at you to not hesitate or you will likely be dead.

 

Think about it, if someone is willing to point a gun at someone on the other side of the door, their intention whether well intended of protecting family or not, is likely to use said weapon. Add to that situation a LEO who is trained to end situations like that with force and it's never going to end well. In this case if I had to pick one person to die, it's going to be the idiot answering a door without checking the window next to it first so that he can actually see who he's about to point a gun at.

 

 

 

 

Has anyone said they aren't being held accountable in any way? Due process will take it's course. In terms of fearing for life, you are not in a position to answer that as you were not there, don't know them and aren't a LEO who's job it is day in and day out. In reality your statements are just opinions, which are fine but they are not relavant otherwise without facts.

 

 

 

So what role did the home owner who was killed play in his own tragedy? Isn't he liable for something? Dude has a window and either made a choice not to see who was out there or didn't care or perhaps he knew and made a choice to be billy bad ass. He had a role in it, whether by choice or not isn't relavant to the outcome. I don't plan on being in a tragic situation either but my actions / reactions are still my actions.

 

 

 

You would be wrong. My wife, nor I would answer a door with a gun in hand if I saw the people outside were LEO's. If we were stupid enough to not check the window and verify it, then the outcome would be part of a possible expectation and a risk we would have obviously been willing to take. That or the two of us could just be dumb ass people that eventually had the Darwin Effect happen to.

 

In terms of normal cititzens, yes, and if you or I banged on his door like this and then killed him, we would be guilty and yes, should be rotting in jail. However, we're not LEO's chasing bad guys in the middle of the night and authorized to do what they did in this situation. You can't compare joe citizen doing this to a LEO peforming his duty.

 

You covered it better than I could. Even when I lived in a questionable area, I always looked before opening the door. If I couldn't see or tell who was there, I didn't open the door.

 

Their training teaches them to get cover if that is a perceived threat. Get cover before anything. In my opinion they went there looking for a fight.

 

Your are right, I am not a LEO but I went through the training and I know a lot of them. I know what they train for in situations like this. I also know how many cops really do go in to situations looking for a fight. You are also right and I was not there so these are just opinions.

 

I dont feel the homeowner played any role in his death. Im not saying that he did not answer the door with a gun. What I am saying is that he was in his own home minding his own business when this situation was brought to him. He is allowed to protect himself and answer his door in any manner that he choses. Not saying its a smart decision but nonetheless it is his right and he is not obligated in any way to have to look out a window or peep hole. He is in his own home. Since when did answering your own door come with guidelines? Again maybe not the smartest choice but it is his right.

 

I think you can compare an LEO to Joe Citizen. There is a reason why officers can be personally sued for what they do on the job. They are held to a higher standard and they know the risks of the job.

 

Did the guy contribute to his own death? Sure. Should it have been this way? Absoluetly not. Who is at fault for the situation? The LEO of course. They were in control of the situation and should have exercised better tactics and this man would still be alive. They made rush decisions that were just poor decisions.

 

Would it not still be his fault if the officers were doing a sweep on the area by knocking on all doors and he answered in the same way with gun drawn?