Dviant Image business model is bunk

[MattKatz]

I think the photographer is a Fool....and the Todd guy is a Tool.

Thats all I got after reading through 80 God damn posts about some pictures.

[vw151]

I think the photographer is a Fool....and the Todd guy is a Tool.

Thats all I got after reading through 80 God damn posts about some pictures.

Haha,

that about sums it up. It's funny how everyone likes to speculate on the finer details of his business model and what they think would be the best practice. Personally I don't care what he does. I just thought his original model was idiotic. He can MBA his carefully thought out business plans up and down the street.

[tomin40]

I'm just playing Devil's advocate because I understand and appreciate both sides of the discussion.

Only Dviant Image will know the results of this change for better or worse.

Agreed, he only knows what may work for him or not.

Yeah, discussing both sides is interesting, its good to see other ideas.

[tomin40]

I think the photographer is a Fool....and the Todd guy is a Tool.

Thats all I got after reading through 80 God damn posts about some pictures.

:lol:

[chris@motorcyclewishlist]

Goddamn Joe, don't you have something better to do than spread this all over the internet. Aren't you suppossed to be working? You need a hobby!

[Artmageddon]

I did freelance photography for several years and I had big long message about this, but I hit back and lost it so fuck it.

Basically it said the photographer is a tool, not because of his business model, but because of his attitude. Anyone that has to mention he got an MBA in every conversation is a douche. That doesn't impress me, good photos do if you are a photographer.

His model is similiar to a wedding photographer, you agree to pay for what you get no matter what. Do I agree with it in this situation, no. He should probably go with the amusement park route, take a bunch pics, display them, and people will buy them.

Not too many people hire a photographer ahead of time, just in case they do something cool. The only people that do shit like that are those skanks from "The Hills" or something.

I haven't looked at his photos so I can't judge his work. My impression is that he thinks he is way better than he is, and overcharges. The OP had every right to negotiate, but at the same time the photographer has his right not to budge.

About anyone being able to take good pictures, well, that is wrong. Sure, buying a good digital camera will help you get some good snapshots, but that doesn't make you a pro. It's the same as if you soup an Acura; that doesn't make yo ready for NASCAR.

While the photos are good, there are many technical things that I see can be improved. I'm not a sports photographer, but there are also techniques like panning, etc., that would really make the images pop. Not saying only a pro can do this, but they are more like to know how and get better results.

Good gear can produce great images, but know how is way more important. Saying that anyone can be a photographer just because they have an SLR is like saying anyone can be a mechanic just because they have a ton of tools.

[John]

I mean, I'd LOVE to go buy a brand spanking new Ferrari for the same price as a Chevy Cobalt, but I'm not going to spend six days emailing Italy about how their "business model" sucks, or how its soooooo unfair that they charge so much more than Chevy for a car.he second email.

worst.

analogy.

ever.

[vw151]

I did freelance photography for several years and I had big long message about this, but I hit back and lost it so fuck it.

Basically it said the photographer is a tool, not because of his business model, but because of his attitude. Anyone that has to mention he got an MBA in every conversation is a douche. That doesn't impress me, good photos do if you are a photographer.

His model is similar to a wedding photographer, you agree to pay for what you get no matter what. Do I agree with it in this situation, no. He should probably go with the amusement park route, take a bunch pics, display them, and people will buy them.

Not too many people hire a photographer ahead of time, just in case they do something cool. The only people that do shit like that are those skanks from "The Hills" or something.

I haven't looked at his photos so I can't judge his work. My impression is that he thinks he is way better than he is, and overcharges. The OP had every right to negotiate, but at the same time the photographer has his right not to budge.

About anyone being able to take good pictures, well, that is wrong. Sure, buying a good digital camera will help you get some good snapshots, but that doesn't make you a pro. It's the same as if you soup an Acura; that doesn't make yo ready for NASCAR.

While the photos are good, there are many technical things that I see can be improved. I'm not a sports photographer, but there are also techniques like panning, etc., that would really make the images pop. Not saying only a pro can do this, but they are more like to know how and get better results.

Good gear can produce great images, but know how is way more important. Saying that anyone can be a photographer just because they have an SLR is like saying anyone can be a mechanic just because they have a ton of tools.

I have done some professional photography as well but got out of it early on and started working in IT. IT has been much more lucrative for me. One of my old roommates and very good friends continued down the photography business road and has developed a very good wedding and portrait business. Over the years he's shot many events of the track day type, I still help out occasionally. So I'm relatively familiar with the show up to a generic event where there are enthusiasts showing off their hobby, photograph it, and attempt to sell them pictures. In fact, you can not only show the subjects the pictures of themselves, with the proper equiptment you can print 8x10s or something on the spot and sell them like hot cakes. Instant gratification!!!! Think of the buzz you create if you shoot a picture of Joe Schmoe in intermediate session 1 and at lunch time Joe Schmoe is walking around the paddock with an 8x10 of himself dragging a knee. I guarantee after lunch between sessions you're gonna have more demand than supply and those that didn't get their 8x10 that day will be ordering something to get in the mail, whether it's digital images or prints of various sizes. Not to mention they get to experience your stellar attitude and willingness to provide an excellent product. Hell, they not only get to see the image they get to see the quality of your work start to finish so now they know exactly what they are getting even if they don't get it that day. I think it's fairly obvious that trying to sell them site unseen is a bad idea. There are many other ways to approach it that solve that problem. Personally, I'd love to get my buddy to shoot a track day. He'd love it. Already has tons of equiptment and a website and ordering system in place and I think he'd blow jokers like Kirk out of the water in terms of quality because he is most definitely a photographer first and a businessman second and he has a great attitude and wouldn't try and get in a pissing match with a customer. Wouldn't you rather buy a photographer's photos than a businessman's. Beyond that, you are exactly right about Kirk's attitude. It's junk and further I think he's lazy. His whole CD scheme reaks of him being too good for the racers and too lazy to be bothered with making people CDs. Nick, my old roommate, is one of the nicest and most personable people you'll ever meet and honestly, as skilled as he is at photography I think his attitude plays at least as big a part as his skills in his success.

Real quick.... the wedding model is similar to what Kirk was doing but I have to reiterate what you were saying about hiring the photographer as well. Although you are buying a wedding photographers pics site unseen since you hire them ahead of time you still get to see their work first and it's also a wedding so you know what you'll be doing in the pics. Track photography is funny. You don't know where the photographer is at during the day and what he caught you doing.

I may not have been clear earlier about the photography statement and I figured it might have upset some fellow photographers when I said it. I agree that someone that has a good working professional knowledge of photography is going to produce better pics through panning and just general manipulation of shutter speed, focal length and aperture to achieve a desired effect. However, at these sorts of events there is 1 photographer and the riders are at the mercy of his skills and I feel that his skills are a smaller part of the equation here than say in a wedding or portrait session. The most important thing in any of the pics is "ME" and what "ME" is doing. The people buying the pics are after quality pics of "ME" looking cool, dragging a knee, or passing a buddy or whatever else. I don't disagree that if said photographer is skilled and able to do the more advanced techniques he will sell more pictures because there will be more cool one's to choose from but ultimately a very green photographer with very expensive equiptment can make the required pictures to make money at this type of venue. That is just my opinion. Hand your buddy a Nikon D3X and a Nikkor 300mm F2.8 VR lens and adjust the ISO to something that gets the shutter speed high and set it to auto or aperture priority and leave it at F2.8 and he will make all kinds of great sharp pictures of the guys on the bikes where the guy is sharp and the background is blurred and the exposure is spot on every time. I guess maybe I should iterate that the person with the camera might need a little coaching or at least need the camera set up for them but it's gonna produce good results. I even think with some coaching the right person could even be taught to pan pretty quickly. Nice thing about digital cameras is you can see your results immediately so if your shutter speed is too fast or slow for the panning affect you can adjust it right there and try again. Do a couple of events and take notes and you got it down pat pretty quick. So a newb photographer may not be as good as the pro but the margin in quality won't be 1000% different if their equiptment is relatively equal. Maybe what I'm saying in summary is shooting a track day is kind of like making cookies, as long as you have an oven, a cookie sheet and the proper ingredients you just follow the recipe and you should be able to end up with a cookie about as good as anyone else. Take nothing away from the skills of a photographer, track day photography is just simpler in my opinion than many other aspects of the art. If you scroll through the pics on any track day photographers website you'll see what I mean. It's turn 5 and every rider in the same spot for a few laps, then it's turn 10 same deal and so on. Maybe sprinkle in a few where he was experimenting with something artsy and that is pretty much it. The art of photography requires a lot more skill and craft, where as making cookies is just that, kind of a staple with which the photographer can make some money. Something say.... an MBA could pick up with out too much training. And honestly if the photographer is good enough at his craft to make pictures that demand 1000% more money I think at that point he is trying to sell caviar to people that were just looking for a cheeseburger. A few people will buy but it won't apeal to a large crowd. If a really highly skilled photographer was working track days I think it would be analogous to taking Iron chef and making him a fry cook at Mcdonalds. No offense to any of you track day photographers out there but I don't think you guys quite qualify as Ansel Adams if you know what I mean and if you do then I hope you get your big break soon.

Having made that point, any of the track photographers at these events likely have a decent working knowledge of photography which means most of the photograhers are going to be around the same caliber which means the pricing really has no reason to be terribly different which brings me back to the point about having a consistent STT product. I completely agree with you in the point that Kirk of Dviant image is really just an arrogant prick who feels his work is far superior to anyone else's and thinks he deserves a huge premium compared to the other track photographers. Meanwhile he tells his customer that he has an MBA and is a businessman first. I still don't understand why me knowing about his business practices would encourage me to support his business where he is selling art.... or cookies.

Anyway..... I guess that's all I'm trying to say.

BTW, this is my buddies website. He kicks ass. I'd love to get him to shoot an event.

If nothing else call him if you are thinking of getting married.

http://www.808photos.com/page/page/364723.htm

Edited April 9, 2009 by vw151

[V4junkie]

worst.

Analogy.

Ever.

qft

[fusion]

BTW, this is my buddies website. He kicks ass. I'd love to get him to shoot an event.

If nothing else call him if you are thinking of getting married.

http://www.808photos.com/page/page/364723.htm

He's got some great work and a Dayton guy too. If he ever needs someone to hang around his studio and annoy the piss out of him let me know.

[vw151]

He's got some great work and a Dayton guy too. If he ever needs someone to hang around his studio and annoy the piss out of him let me know.

Do you know Nick? I'm sure he'd love to hang around and talk shop with you. I believe his studio address is on the site. I'd stop in on him.

[fusion]

Nah I don't know him. I just checked out his site and saw his work and where he was at.

[vw151]

Nah I don't know him. I just checked out his site and saw his work and where he was at.

Right on. If you are ever over on Shroyer near Carmels stop in on him and tell him I was talking him up on the forum. He's a bit of a gear head too, not into bikes but just a good guy that like horsepower as much as the rest of us.

[thomez]

I have done some professional photography as well but got out of it early on and started working in IT. IT has been much more lucrative for me. One of my old roommates and very good friends continued down the photography business road and has developed a very good wedding and portrait business. Over the years he's shot many events of the track day type, I still help out occasionally. So I'm relatively familiar with the show up to a generic event where there are enthusiasts showing off their hobby, photograph it, and attempt to sell them pictures. In fact, you can not only show the subjects the pictures of themselves, with the proper equiptment you can print 8x10s or something on the spot and sell them like hot cakes. Instant gratification!!!! Think of the buzz you create if you shoot a picture of Joe Schmoe in intermediate session 1 and at lunch time Joe Schmoe is walking around the paddock with an 8x10 of himself dragging a knee. I guarantee after lunch between sessions you're gonna have more demand than supply and those that didn't get their 8x10 that day will be ordering something to get in the mail, whether it's digital images or prints of various sizes. Not to mention they get to experience your stellar attitude and willingness to provide an excellent product. Hell, they not only get to see the image they get to see the quality of your work start to finish so now they know exactly what they are getting even if they don't get it that day. I think it's fairly obvious that trying to sell them site unseen is a bad idea. There are many other ways to approach it that solve that problem. Personally, I'd love to get my buddy to shoot a track day. He'd love it. Already has tons of equiptment and a website and ordering system in place and I think he'd blow jokers like Kirk out of the water in terms of quality because he is most definitely a photographer first and a businessman second and he has a great attitude and wouldn't try and get in a pissing match with a customer. Wouldn't you rather buy a photographer's photos than a businessman's. Beyond that, you are exactly right about Kirk's attitude. It's junk and further I think he's lazy. His whole CD scheme reaks of him being too good for the racers and too lazy to be bothered with making people CDs. Nick, my old roommate, is one of the nicest and most personable people you'll ever meet and honestly, as skilled as he is at photography I think his attitude plays at least as big a part as his skills in his success.

Real quick.... the wedding model is similar to what Kirk was doing but I have to reiterate what you were saying about hiring the photographer as well. Although you are buying a wedding photographers pics site unseen since you hire them ahead of time you still get to see their work first and it's also a wedding so you know what you'll be doing in the pics. Track photography is funny. You don't know where the photographer is at during the day and what he caught you doing.

I may not have been clear earlier about the photography statement and I figured it might have upset some fellow photographers when I said it. I agree that someone that has a good working professional knowledge of photography is going to produce better pics through panning and just general manipulation of shutter speed, focal length and aperture to achieve a desired effect. However, at these sorts of events there is 1 photographer and the riders are at the mercy of his skills and I feel that his skills are a smaller part of the equation here than say in a wedding or portrait session. The most important thing in any of the pics is "ME" and what "ME" is doing. The people buying the pics are after quality pics of "ME" looking cool, dragging a knee, or passing a buddy or whatever else. I don't disagree that if said photographer is skilled and able to do the more advanced techniques he will sell more pictures because there will be more cool one's to choose from but ultimately a very green photographer with very expensive equiptment can make the required pictures to make money at this type of venue. That is just my opinion. Hand your buddy a Nikon D3X and a Nikkor 300mm F2.8 VR lens and adjust the ISO to something that gets the shutter speed high and set it to auto or aperture priority and leave it at F2.8 and he will make all kinds of great sharp pictures of the guys on the bikes where the guy is sharp and the background is blurred and the exposure is spot on every time. I guess maybe I should iterate that the person with the camera might need a little coaching or at least need the camera set up for them but it's gonna produce good results. I even think with some coaching the right person could even be taught to pan pretty quickly. Nice thing about digital cameras is you can see your results immediately so if your shutter speed is too fast or slow for the panning affect you can adjust it right there and try again. Do a couple of events and take notes and you got it down pat pretty quick. So a newb photographer may not be as good as the pro but the margin in quality won't be 1000% different if their equiptment is relatively equal. Maybe what I'm saying in summary is shooting a track day is kind of like making cookies, as long as you have an oven, a cookie sheet and the proper ingredients you just follow the recipe and you should be able to end up with a cookie about as good as anyone else. Take nothing away from the skills of a photographer, track day photography is just simpler in my opinion than many other aspects of the art. If you scroll through the pics on any track day photographers website you'll see what I mean. It's turn 5 and every rider in the same spot for a few laps, then it's turn 10 same deal and so on. Maybe sprinkle in a few where he was experimenting with something artsy and that is pretty much it. The art of photography requires a lot more skill and craft, where as making cookies is just that, kind of a staple with which the photographer can make some money. Something say.... an MBA could pick up with out too much training. And honestly if the photographer is good enough at his craft to make pictures that demand 1000% more money I think at that point he is trying to sell caviar to people that were just looking for a cheeseburger. A few people will buy but it won't apeal to a large crowd. If a really highly skilled photographer was working track days I think it would be analogous to taking Iron chef and making him a fry cook at Mcdonalds. No offense to any of you track day photographers out there but I don't think you guys quite qualify as Ansel Adams if you know what I mean and if you do then I hope you get your big break soon.

Having made that point, any of the track photographers at these events likely have a decent working knowledge of photography which means most of the photograhers are going to be around the same caliber which means the pricing really has no reason to be terribly different which brings me back to the point about having a consistent STT product. I completely agree with you in the point that Kirk of Dviant image is really just an arrogant prick who feels his work is far superior to anyone else's and thinks he deserves a huge premium compared to the other track photographers. Meanwhile he tells his customer that he has an MBA and is a businessman first. I still don't understand why me knowing about his business practices would encourage me to support his business where he is selling art.... or cookies.

Anyway..... I guess that's all I'm trying to say.

BTW, this is my buddies website. He kicks ass. I'd love to get him to shoot an event.

If nothing else call him if you are thinking of getting married.

http://www.808photos.com/page/page/364723.htm

tl;dr

:grin:

[vw151]

tl;dr

:grin:

haha

[yotaman88210]

Joe, you type too much. Jesus that was a lot to read!

Kirk is not the sharpest tool in the shed.... but he is indeed a tool. Thats all I want to add

[vw151]

Joe, you type too much. Jesus that was a lot to read!

Kirk is not the sharpest tool in the shed.... but he is indeed a tool. Thats all I want to add

Sometimes I get a little fired up. I think I got especially fired up on this subject since it pertains to something I've always loved and have some knowledge about. Yes Kirk is a douche bag, so is that Todd guy. What happened to him. People started calling him a douche and he stopped posting in this thread. I was really enjoying the banter between him and I and everyone else.

[Todd#43]

Yes Kirk is a douche bag, so is that Todd guy. What happened to him. People started calling him a douche and he stopped posting in this thread. I was really enjoying the banter between him and I and everyone else.

Sorry you missed me. Some of us have work to do from time to time. Personally, I don't get to sit in front of a computer all day long.

Once you reduced your comments to sophomoric name calling, I was pretty much done anyway.

[vw151]

Sorry you missed me. Some of us have work to do from time to time. Personally, I don't get to sit in front of a computer all day long.

Once you reduced your comments to sophomoric name calling, I was pretty much done anyway.

OMFG you said sophomoric! After the comments you made I'd hardly call my name calling anything less than brilliant.

I did actually miss you. It was a strange sensation. First I felt it in my toe, then it moved up my leg and into the groin area. At that point I ignored it and distracted myself by doing something else and forgot about it. I wasn't really sure what this new feeling was and I was scared to find out. Was it love? I don't know... time will tell. Oh my the suspense and anticipation.

You're back now though and I feel this strange warm comfort. It's like a virtual blanket keeping me safe and at home. I'm glad your back Todd. I'll never mock you again. Not after what we have been through. When can we meet? I'll never be complete if we can't be together.

Edited April 10, 2009 by vw151

[Disclaimer]

You had me at sophomoric

[Cdubyah]

You had me at hello....

[yotaman88210]

Wow. I can feel the vibe of man love... VW151... you may want to get your toe and leg checked out!

[vw151]

Wow. I can feel the vibe of man love... VW151... you may want to get your toe and leg checked out!

I'm trying to up my game to juniorific in hopes of penetrating his brazen exterior. His fantastic diction swept me off my feet and now I can't stop thinking about him.

He is so sophisticated and refined.

[Disclaimer]

... you said diction

Ha!

[vw151]

... you said diction

Ha!

It means word choice you perve!