Help?! Bike not running

[ousley99]

Ok, so heres the deal.

Last weekend the bike wouldn't start. I put a new battery in it and it started right up. Cool. Then I put the Octane Booster in it with very little gas in the tank. Rode to the gas station 3 miles away and filled up. Pulling out of the gas station my bike stalled, and barely restarted (low battery). Rode 3 more miles to the dyno day and bike sat for about 2 hours before my turn in line. Bike started up and pulled it in the garage. Go to start it to put it on the dyno and battery is dead again. So we jump it and put it on the dyno anyway. While on the dyno the red light comes on with the Fi code. Bike was running super rich with BLACK smoke all morning. Get the bike off the dyno and keep it running while I get ready to ride it straight home. The electronics shut off, then bike shuts off again.

Soo, I take the new battery back and get my old one back. charge the origanal battery to 100%. i drained the gas out of the tank and put it in my car(run jus fine btw). put new shell v93 in it and put the charged battery back in it. bike starts right up and seems to run fine. red light and Fi code are gone so i assume the bike is fixed.

Today the bike starts right up and seems to run fine. i take it up 270 all the way to sawmill exit. while deacceleration to the stop light, the bike stalls out. i pull over and bike barely starts up. the low end throttle response is terrible, but when i get back on 270 south towards the house, WOT seems completly fine. when i get to the roberts rd exit and slow to a stop bike wants to die again in low rpm. get about a mile from the house and the bike just shut off. i walk home and get the trailer... take the battery out and battery has 12.3 volts but wont start the bike without the charger on it.

Does anyone have a code reader capable for my bike?

Does anyone have anyother suggestions?

I know its probably something small, but damnit!

[SWing'R]

Sounds like you've angered the motor gremlins. No seriously, I have no idea but maybe someone will.

[ReconRat]

Charge and check voltage in both batteries. Use the new one, most likely. Must have 12.5 to 14.5 volts to be usable. At 12.5 and lower, I would think one cell was going dead. Even a new battery can do that occasionally. I've had to take one or two back for that. I would like to see 13.5 to 14.5 in a battery, for it to be trustworthy.

If battery still runs down, there is a charging problem somewhere. Long list of trouble shooting to find the exact cause. Also possible short circuit somewhere, draining battery.

(New batteries put out 2.45 volts per cell (6 cells), for a total of 14.7 max. Charging system puts 13.5 to 14.5 into the battery. Nice shiny new batteries should have 14.5 volts.)

argh, wait... you said the new battery went back. Well, if the one you have doesn't have enough voltage after charging, you'll have to check it further, or buy another battery.

Edited April 13, 2009 by ReconRat
oops

[zukigsxr1000]

First off, how much octane booster did you put in your tank? Most products like that are supposed to treat like 20gallons of gas and not recomended to use on just a couple gallons.

Have you checked your spark plugs yet?

As far as codes, try doing a search on google, i dont know for your bike but for mine i simple had to use a paper clip to put the bike into "dealer" mode which allows you to read the codes

[ReconRat]

It does seem strange that it shuts down. Even a bad battery will make it home. When the charging system is operating, the plugs should still fire ok. Even if there is a short circuit or something. But yeah, this is electrical gremlins.

[ousley99]

Charge and check voltage in both batteries. Use the new one, most likely. Must have 12.5 to 14.5 volts to be usable. At 12.5 and lower, I would think one cell was going dead. Even a new battery can do that occasionally. I've had to take one or two back for that. I would like to see 13.5 to 14.5 in a battery, for it to be trustworthy.

If battery still runs down, there is a charging problem somewhere. Long list of trouble shooting to find the exact cause. Also possible short circuit somewhere, draining battery.

(New batteries put out 2.45 volts per cell (6 cells), for a total of 14.7 max. Charging system puts 13.5 to 14.5 into the battery. Nice shiny new batteries should have 14.5 volts.)

argh, wait... you said the new battery went back. Well, if the one you have doesn't have enough voltage after charging, you'll have to check it further, or buy another battery.

hmm ok.. i didnt think the mc batteries had tha much.. I'm def going back and buying a new battery. im charging the old one back up to take and have it tested too..

[gixxie750]

deff sounds like a dead stator to me!

[ousley99]

First off, how much octane booster did you put in your tank? Most products like that are supposed to treat like 20gallons of gas and not recomended to use on just a couple gallons.

Have you checked your spark plugs yet?

As far as codes, try doing a search on google, i dont know for your bike but for mine i simple had to use a paper clip to put the bike into "dealer" mode which allows you to read the codes

I def put too much octane boost in it. i usually only use a 1/3 of a bottle of lucas, and i wasnt paying attention probably 3/4 of the bottle went in.

How did you do that with the paper clip? where? and will it read stored codes even if the lights not on anymore?

[NinjaNick]

WTF...why would you put Octane booster in your zx10?

If it's because of octane booster that's your own fault.

You don't need octane booster in these bikes.

Edited April 13, 2009 by NinjaNick

[ousley99]

deff sounds like a dead stator to me!

how does my dumbass check the stator? bike was running great for the last 6weeks and of course dyno day decides to f up.

all of the fuses are good, and there appears to be no damage to any wiring anywhere. actually nothing had been touched prior to the battery dying in the first place.

do stators jus die for no reason? do bikes run like cars when comparing the charging systems? ie alternator and battery?

[420gsxr1000]

...1/3 bottle octane boost didnt do shit to my 1000 gixx.....and the paper clip methoid for code retreival is different on all bikes....but it does work to an extent

good luck..no ideas here

[ReconRat]

deff sounds like a dead stator to me!

Yes, strong possibility if this battery or another goes down again. But still, needs checked out before spending that much cash. I would wonder about the output from the voltage regulator also.

[ReconRat]

hmm ok.. i didnt think the mc batteries had tha much.. I'm def going back and buying a new battery. im charging the old one back up to take and have it tested too..

Yeah, it sounds a bit odd that a 12 volt battery would have 14.5. But this is true for cars, planes, motorcycles. Basic 6 wet cell battery. Typical voltage regulator sends 14.5 volts to the battery.

[ousley99]

...1/3 bottle octane boost didnt do shit to my 1000 gixx.....and the paper clip methoid for code retreival is different on all bikes....but it does work to an extent

good luck..no ideas here

I usually jus use it as a safety incase i get bad gas or something.. I know i dont need it, but in the event it makes me feel better knowing or at least gives me a lil peace of mind that it would help the gas stay above 89 octane and not fry my engine..

[zukigsxr1000]

did a little searchin....

click here and look at the last post, it talks about reading your bikes codes

http://www.zxforums.com/forums/mechanical-technical/13702-f-i-light-how-do-i-get-codes.html

[ReconRat]

Lots of Hondas had poorly designed or manufactured stators back in the 80s. So it can happen to even a new bike. You'd have to go through the testing list in the service manual. There's no avoiding that, to really find the problem. Well, there is throw money at it, and buy parts till it works again. There is that. I try to avoid buying parts I don't need. But sometimes it's ok. Your bike is too new to be doing that.

It is the right time of year to blame a battery. Yes, cars and bikes work on the same principles. But the parts and testing procedures can vary. Downloading service manual. Or trying to, anyway.

[Disclaimer]

deff sounds like a dead stator to me!

Ding, i think we have a winnar winnar chicken dinnar.

Either the stator is bad, the rectifier is bad, or (as was the case when my bike exhibited similar symptoms) you could have a broken/burnt wire between the two.

Turned out, my bike was only running on 2 of the 3 wires from the stator - I had fried one of the wires, just completely burnt it up... so it was only charging 2/3 of the designed capacity. My bike would run fine with a new charged battery, and at high RPMs because it was able to keep up with the electrical requirements, but once I reached where ever I was going - battery was too weak to run it alone at low RPMs.

Yours being fuel injected, it probably didn't have enough juice to run the injectors properly and threw a code. Check the wiring, rectifier, and stator in that order.

[SWing'R]

My bike would run fine with a new charged battery, and at high RPMs because it was able to keep up with the electrical requirements, but once I reached where ever I was going - battery was too weak to run it alone at low RPMs.

Isn't a bike like a car in regards to the battery, I mean doesn't a car battery only assist in starting the car but once its running the battery is not used right? Which is why you can "jump" a dead battery. Doesn't the same apply with bikes? I guess what I'm asking is why would it matter whether you were running at high or low rpm's so long as the bike was running?

[ReconRat]

Isn't a bike like a car in regards to the battery' date=' I mean doesn't a car battery only assist in starting the car but once its running the battery is not used right? Which is why you can "jump" a dead battery. Doesn't the same apply with bikes? I guess what I'm asking is why would it matter whether you were running at high or low rpm's so long as the bike was running?[/quote']

The alternator output varies per RPM. At a certain minimum RPM, it's output is maximum. The battery cannot be removed from the circuit. Not without substituting other parts to eliminate it. Same with cars.

[Disclaimer]

Isn't a bike like a car in regards to the battery' date=' I mean doesn't a car battery only assist in starting the car but once its running the battery is not used right? Which is why you can "jump" a dead battery. Doesn't the same apply with bikes? I guess what I'm asking is why would it matter whether you were running at high or low rpm's so long as the bike was running?[/quote']

Stator output is based on RPM because electrical current is generated in relation to the change in the B-field (magnetic field)... the quicker the change, the more electricity is generated. So, higher RPMs = more electricity. At least in newer cars/bikes, the alternator/stator should fulfill the electrical requirements - who's job is to run all the lights,injectors,plugs, etc, but also keep the battery charged to ~14.7V. If all requirements are satisfied - the excess electricity is sent to a huge heat sink and basically wasted as heat, usually on the regulator/rectifier. When there's not enough juice coming from the stator, the battery picks up the slack and will be recharged by the system once in normally designed operation.. You can see this when you let off the throttle at night and your headlamp dims slightly.

For example, my Hurricane was rated at 350W @ 5000rpm according to my service manual. I don't know what Honda would design it for, but I would assume near idle conditions (~1500-2000rpm) the stator would be able to fulfill the requirements, but less than that, it relies on the battery.

At least that's how I understand it and per the wiring I've dug into on a few bikes/cars.

[ReconRat]

per service manual:

to check battery, disconnect the battery terminals. Measure the battery terminal voltage. (wait 30 minutes if just charged) If less than 12.8 volts, charge battery. Lower than 12.0 volts, unserviceable, replace battery.

Troubleshooting list says:

if Poor Running at Low Speed:

-Spark weak

-Fuel/air mixture incorrect

-Compression low

-Other

The low compression can probably be ignored, that's not it. And it does start and run for a while, so it's not likely the Fuel/air mixture unless it's happening after it warms up and changes the F/A per the computer.

Spark weak:

-Battery voltage low

-Spark plug dirty, broken, or maladjusted

-Stick coil wiring trouble (Stick? wut? maybe means stock... dang translations...)

-Stick coil not in good contact

-Spark plug incorrect

-IC igniter in ECU trouble

-Camshaft position sensor trouble

-Crankshaft sensor trouble

-Stick coil trouble

-Immobilizer system trouble

Fuel/air mixture incorrect:

-bypass screw maladjusted

-Air passage clogged

-Air bleed pipe bleed holes clogged

-Pilot passage clogged

-Air cleaner clogged, poorly sealed, or missing

-Fuel tank air vent obstructed

-Fuel pump trouble

-Throttle body assy holder loose

-Air cleaner duct loose

stator testing:

Resistance between any two of the three black wires from the stator should be one to two ohms. Shorts and opens are a bad stator. Take a minimum of three readings, different wire pairs.

Voltage between one black lead and another black lead should read 60 volts on the 250 V AC scale, at 4000 RPM. Do not put your hands or fingers down there near the connections. Big shock. Much higher or lower voltage is a bad stator. Take a minimum of three readings, different wire pairs.

Even if it isn't compression, a loose spark plug can cause the low speed problems.

[ReconRat]

Checking the Regulator/Rectifier is a bit difficult to explain. There's a chart in the manual that shows what resistance should be seen when testing the 5 connections. 5 by 5, that is 20 measurements.

I got the manual from http://www.kawasakitalk.com/f129/2006-2007-zx10-service-manual-261.html

[skulls]

Didnt read all the post on your bike but here is what happened to my o6 zx 10

The kick stand relay got water in it and corroded the points in the relay . bike would run sweet till i hit a bump or pulled the front end up and i would start to have the same problems you are having . bike would shut down or run like shit . it takes about 5 minutes to check . just pull the relay aprt at the kick stand and check the contacks on the back of the board .. Hope you figure the problem out man , goodluck

[shittygsxr]

you can buy a multimeter from harbor freight for about $3 then you can check your stator or rectifier(I bet rectifier).

[flounder]

Stator or Rectifier..

And just remember people that just because your battery is putting out the correct voltage, that doesnt mean that it has enough amps to start the bike.