The death of car guys

[Forrest Gump 9]

http://news.boldride.com/2015/04/gm-wants-to-make-working-on-your-own-car-illegal/76702/

 

Long live old cars.

 

But I think the real issues is can't have autonomous driving cars if people fiddle **** with the electronics..

[Geeto67]

What the OEMs are really trying to solve for in short term are:

 

1) warranty repairs related to tampering that can't be proved

2) control over the people who make parts for their cars without paying their licensing fees

 

Long term might be autonomous cars and other things but really I see this as a heavy handed approach to solving two areas where the OEMS have some money leakage and reputational risk exposures and potential liability.

 

There will always be people who want to tinker, and there will always be racing including grass roots. It just might take a different shape.

[Draco-REX]

What the OEMs are really trying to solve for in short term are:

 

1) warranty repairs related to tampering that can't be proved

2) control over the people who make parts for their cars without paying their licensing fees

 

You missed one:

3) Collecting licensing fees for all diagnostic equipment.

 

If the greedy chuckle-headed luddites let this go, it will give OEMs the ability to dip into the pockets of every small shop owner. As cars get more and more complex and the on board computers get more and more integrated into everything, it'll be EASY for an OEM to claim that the level of diagnostics needed will expose their "trade secrets" and require strictly controlled (and licensed) diagnostic equipment.

 

Those <$100 scanners at Autozone become useless. The $1500 scanner a Mom & Pop Shop needs to stay competitive suddenly requires a monthly subscription fee. And then, with some lobbying money and slick lawyer-speak, all the work that was done in the 90s to keep the OEMs from requiring customers to come to dealerships for work will suddenly disappear. "How can the OEMs be expected to expose the inner workings of their highly proprietary hybrid and EV powertrain control units?" And suddenly, the only place you can get your car worked on is a dealership and the local shops are relegated to working on older and older heaps until they are no longer profitable.

 

This shit needs to DIAF.

[Mallard]

You missed one:

3) Collecting licensing fees for all diagnostic equipment.

 

If the greedy chuckle-headed luddites let this go, it will give OEMs the ability to dip into the pockets of every small shop owner. As cars get more and more complex and the on board computers get more and more integrated into everything, it'll be EASY for an OEM to claim that the level of diagnostics needed will expose their "trade secrets" and require strictly controlled (and licensed) diagnostic equipment.

 

Those <$100 scanners at Autozone become useless. The $1500 scanner a Mom & Pop Shop needs to stay competitive suddenly requires a monthly subscription fee. And then, with some lobbying money and slick lawyer-speak, all the work that was done in the 90s to keep the OEMs from requiring customers to come to dealerships for work will suddenly disappear. "How can the OEMs be expected to expose the inner workings of their highly proprietary hybrid and EV powertrain control units?" And suddenly, the only place you can get your car worked on is a dealership and the local shops are relegated to working on older and older heaps until they are no longer profitable.

 

This shit needs to DIAF.

OBD II is a standard that everyone has to follow. Scan tools are not violating copyright law. However, tuning software, like HPTuners, that decodes and allows you to modify the stock ECU code is what's being challenged.

[zeitgeist57]

I chop my catalytic converters off.

 

eBay/Harbor Freight supplies my tools and parts.

 

I have no front plates.

 

I shrug off window tint laws.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Since I can't stop any legislation plans, I'll let the market dictate how I can still own my own fucking car and still work on it.

[Crossle]

OBD II is a standard that everyone has to follow. Scan tools are not violating copyright law. However, tuning software, like HPTuners, that decodes and allows you to modify the stock ECU code is what's being challenged.

 

I'd just like to chime in and say that the standard data that OBDII covers is laughable IMO in today's automotive world. I agree 100% with what Draco had to say, and I see perhaps the potential for manufacturers to find a way to tighten their hold on their information depending on how this bill is interpreted if it were to pass.

[bdhill]

I think the car industry killed a generation of car guys with horrible cars for much of the 70s, the 80s and the much of the 90s. It seems few of the Gen Y group or millennials care much about cars. And fewer care about antique cars, of English sports cars for instance. Clearly, people on this site have a passion for cars of most types. But we are the minority. Shocking how few people can change a tire, their oil, of drive a manual gearbox. There will always be a few of us who work on cars, or have worked on cars. But we are clearly the minority. The odd thing is...some of the best cars ever made are out now. You can buy a z06 that outperforms an indycar from the early 1980s...crazy world

[bdhill]

sorry gen y and millennials don't care much about cars

[Mr. Jones]

sorry gen y and millennials don't care much about cars

 

Seems to be a growing trend, especially in the "super urban" atmosphere.

Cars are a 20th century invention that was an old necessity to them, owning a car seems absurd when public transportation and bikes are available.

 

Damn Hippies.

[Draco-REX]

OBD II is a standard that everyone has to follow. Scan tools are not violating copyright law. However, tuning software, like HPTuners, that decodes and allows you to modify the stock ECU code is what's being challenged.

Now, yes. But OBD-II is already an old and obsolete standard. There are already manufacturer specific codes; something that wasn't supposed to happen with the original plan. And cars have more than one computer now. Your average car now has an ECU, TCM, BCM, ABS Module, and EPS Module. Your off-the-shelf OBDII scanner *might* be able to scan the ABS module, but you're SOL if you have an issue with the rest. That means NO diagnostics on the other computers. Hyundai already has a Campaign requiring an update for the EPS Module. Forget repairing, the Mom and pops already can't even tell you what's wrong.

 

Hybrid and EV powertrains are THE thing that will make or break an OEM in the near future. They are spending Millions, maybe BILLIONS, on developing them in order to hit ever rising Fleet MPG standards. They won't want anyone so much as looking sideways at one of their powertrain computers. The OEMs will Lobby and Bribe and throw as much legalese around as they can afford to convince every government official that they are victims and that their EV R&D investments are breaking their backs and they need to be protected from mean ol' competitors who will steal their tech and make them go bankrupt (ignoring the fact that their competitors are in the room with them making the same arguments.)

 

Very few M&P shops are capable of of working on hybrid cars. That will quickly become ZERO.

 

Seems to be a growing trend, especially in the "super urban" atmosphere.

Cars are a 20th century invention that was an old necessity to them, owning a car seems absurd when public transportation and bikes are available.

 

Damn Hippies.

To be fair, car use in the heart of the big cities is kinda pointless anyways.

 

But I do admit that when I roll through a suburban neighborhood in a sporty car and I see young kids that don't even bother to look up, it kinda worries me.

[Rally Pat]

"Turns Out Millennials Buy More Cars Than Generation X-ers"

 

http://carbuying.jalopnik.com/turns-out-millennials-buy-more-cars-than-generation-x-e-1614724175

[Geeto67]

I'd just like to chime in and say that the standard data that OBDII covers is laughable IMO in today's automotive world. I agree 100% with what Draco had to say, and I see perhaps the potential for manufacturers to find a way to tighten their hold on their information depending on how this bill is interpreted if it were to pass.

 

I hadn't considered this, because like mallard I thought OBDII standards covered it, even though as the owner of a VAG product I have had first hand expirence with borrowing a VAGCOM to read what scanners won't. The OEMs blow when it comes to DIY working on their products, up until recently the factory service manual alone for the audi was $600 which to me is highly unreasonable.

 

I think the car industry killed a generation of car guys with horrible cars for much of the 70s, the 80s and the much of the 90s. It seems few of the Gen Y group or millennials care much about cars. And fewer care about antique cars, of English sports cars for instance. Clearly, people on this site have a passion for cars of most types. But we are the minority. Shocking how few people can change a tire, their oil, of drive a manual gearbox. There will always be a few of us who work on cars, or have worked on cars. But we are clearly the minority. The odd thing is...some of the best cars ever made are out now. You can buy a z06 that outperforms an indycar from the early 1980s...crazy world

 

I lived through that time period, or at least the 80's and 90's portion of it, and I can tell you that's bullshit. What died was the enthuasist car culture being dominated by domestic cars in that time period and the rise of Honda, Subaru, Mitsubishi, and nissan as legitimate enthuasist cars. If you are looking for someone to blame that kids aren't into 60's english cars or old cars in general, blame rust as most of that old junk requires bodywork that is out if the skill set of most enthuasists period. What isn't shocking is how many people can't change a tire or their oil today in an era of run flat tires and 5000 oil changes, it's how many people couldn't back then when it was more if a necessity. I am a 100% and old car fanatic and a member of generation x, but even I know fixing minor rust is beyond my skills and I've done full drivetrain swaps on a car in less than a day. We live in the golden age of performance now because there is more of a market for it than has ever existed before. Even people who are not traditionally considered "car people" are excited about rwd v8 sedans and AWD manual trans wagons. That's huge.

 

If you want to complain about people not being into old cars bitch about how spoiled we have all gotten because of new cars. Having an old car is almost an exquisite form of torture reserved for only the most hardcore of Luddites - remember anything made before 1978 is likely not going to have air conditioning, power windows, disc brakes, fm radio, electronic ignition, rims bigger than 15", well designed suspension, sound deadening, sealed interior without wind leaks, crumple zones, shoulder harnesses, safety of any kind really, diagnostic gauges, and comfortable ergonomically designed interiors with pleasing to the touch materials (anybody remember vinyl seat burns?). You have to find sweating and smelling gasoline fumes and opening the hood once a day in public places an enjoyable expirence to drive an old car on a regular basis, and even in this crowd there aren't many willing to put up with that.

[Geeesammy]

But OBD-II is already an old and obsolete standard.

 

No, just no.

 

"ob·so·lete

ˌäbsəˈlēt/Submit

adjective

1.

no longer produced or used; out of date."

 

At last check every car/truck sold in America new in 2015 had OBDII. What replaced OBDII overnight that I wasn't aware of?

[caseyctsv]

I had to take my wife's Volvo to MAG for a 200.00 "software update" as the computer for the top was not shutting down as intended. There were no options. For me it was a glimpse into the future. I don't do my own work anymore but loathe taking my car to a dealership. It will suck if changes like this make businesses that I use like Dozzers Garage and IPS unviable for the long term. Though this would be REALLY long term because there are people like Clay

[Mallard]

Now, yes. But OBD-II is already an old and obsolete standard. There are already manufacturer specific codes; something that wasn't supposed to happen with the original plan. And cars have more than one computer now. Your average car now has an ECU, TCM, BCM, ABS Module, and EPS Module. Your off-the-shelf OBDII scanner *might* be able to scan the ABS module, but you're SOL if you have an issue with the rest. That means NO diagnostics on the other computers. Hyundai already has a Campaign requiring an update for the EPS Module. Forget repairing, the Mom and pops already can't even tell you what's wrong.

 

Hybrid and EV powertrains are THE thing that will make or break an OEM in the near future. They are spending Millions, maybe BILLIONS, on developing them in order to hit ever rising Fleet MPG standards. They won't want anyone so much as looking sideways at one of their powertrain computers. The OEMs will Lobby and Bribe and throw as much legalese around as they can afford to convince every government official that they are victims and that their EV R&D investments are breaking their backs and they need to be protected from mean ol' competitors who will steal their tech and make them go bankrupt (ignoring the fact that their competitors are in the room with them making the same arguments.)

 

Very few M&P shops are capable of of working on hybrid cars. That will quickly become ZERO.

 

 

To be fair, car use in the heart of the big cities is kinda pointless anyways.

 

But I do admit that when I roll through a suburban neighborhood in a sporty car and I see young kids that don't even bother to look up, it kinda worries me.

I still don't believe diagnostics are what they care about. Things weren't defined in the spec, new functions were added, and each OEM solved the problem differently. Bring everyone togther, define a new standard, problem solved.

 

As far as protecting their technology, like hybrids and EV's from mom and pop shops, I also disagree. I don't believe copyright laws will prevent anyone from reading faults/codes/etc., just as I'm not prevented from reading a copyrighted book. I can use copyrighted material for my own personal use (i.e. I rip a CD to my computer, or build an exact copy of a Lamborghini in my basement), but I cannot copy, distribute, and sell someone else's work (upload that CD to the Internet for anyone to download, start selling faux Lamborghini's).

 

So this would not stop Ford from buying a Chrysler and decompiling all the code in the car to benchmark what we are doing, and I don't believe any fault codes being read. However, it's a direct assault on companies like HPTuners that decompile, modify, and sell other people's code. For example, for their Hellcat tuning they have to open up the ECU, connect directly to the board, and modify the bootloader. Then they decompile the code and sell it without paying any licensing fee.

[Draco-REX]

No, just no.

 

"ob·so·lete

ˌäbsəˈlēt/Submit

adjective

1.

no longer produced or used; out of date."

 

At last check every car/truck sold in America new in 2015 had OBDII. What replaced OBDII overnight that I wasn't aware of?

People are still born with an appendix...

 

It's certainly out of date if it no longer does what it is supposed to do. OBDII isn't just a plug.

 

I still don't believe diagnostics are what they care about. Things weren't defined in the spec, new functions were added, and each OEM solved the problem differently. Bring everyone togther, define a new standard, problem solved.

 

As far as protecting their technology, like hybrids and EV's from mom and pop shops, I also disagree. I don't believe copyright laws will prevent anyone from reading faults/codes/etc., just as I'm not prevented from reading a copyrighted book. I can use copyrighted material for my own personal use (i.e. I rip a CD to my computer, or build an exact copy of a Lamborghini in my basement), but I cannot copy, distribute, and sell someone else's work (upload that CD to the Internet for anyone to download, start selling faux Lamborghini's).

 

So this would not stop Ford from buying a Chrysler and decompiling all the code in the car to benchmark what we are doing, and I don't believe any fault codes being read. However, it's a direct assault on companies like HPTuners that decompile, modify, and sell other people's code. For example, for their Hellcat tuning they have to open up the ECU, connect directly to the board, and modify the bootloader. Then they decompile the code and sell it without paying any licensing fee.

The DMCA was written to stop software and movie piracy, and now we're talking about cars. It most certainly can and will be used for more than just stopping tuners.

 

Oh, and the DMCA makes overcoming encryption and copy protections illegal. So copying your movies on disc, even for your own use, is actually illegal due to the DMCA. The DMCA overrides the Fair Use Act.

[Mallard]

People are still born with an appendix...

 

It's certainly out of date if it no longer does what it is supposed to do. OBDII isn't just a plug.

 

 

The DMCA was written to stop software and movie piracy, and now we're talking about cars. It most certainly can and will be used for more than just stopping tuners.

 

Oh, and the DMCA makes overcoming encryption and copy protections illegal. So copying your movies on disc, even for your own use, is actually illegal due to the DMCA. The DMCA overrides the Fair Use Act.

Ok then use the example of buying it on iTunes once, then using on multiple devices that I own. Or recording a song off the radio on a cassette.

 

Do you think someone should be able to decompile someone else's code and make money off of it?

[ShoMeSomeFun]

You missed one:

3) Collecting licensing fees for all diagnostic equipment.

 

If the greedy chuckle-headed luddites let this go, it will give OEMs the ability to dip into the pockets of every small shop owner. As cars get more and more complex and the on board computers get more and more integrated into everything, it'll be EASY for an OEM to claim that the level of diagnostics needed will expose their "trade secrets" and require strictly controlled (and licensed) diagnostic equipment.

 

Those <$100 scanners at Autozone become useless. The $1500 scanner a Mom & Pop Shop needs to stay competitive suddenly requires a monthly subscription fee. And then, with some lobbying money and slick lawyer-speak, all the work that was done in the 90s to keep the OEMs from requiring customers to come to dealerships for work will suddenly disappear. "How can the OEMs be expected to expose the inner workings of their highly proprietary hybrid and EV powertrain control units?" And suddenly, the only place you can get your car worked on is a dealership and the local shops are relegated to working on older and older heaps until they are no longer profitable.

 

This shit needs to DIAF.

 

Hit it on the head here, I help run my familys body shop (Keens) and we just bought a 6000 dollar scanner 3 months ago, and it still requires a 150 dollar a month subscription to keep up with the new cars. Also we have to pay 2k a year for frame information and then we also have to pay another 1800 a year for information on all vehicle electronic information and their locations, and proper removal procedures. Not to mention the estimating systems cost another couple grand per year. Tack on taxes, business overhead ie electricity, payroll, and number 1 taxes and its a hard business to keep up in.

 

Also new cars use high strength steel and require more stringent welding methods. I just went through the I-Car high strength steel welding class and it was just 11 hours of hell making perfect welds. Those classes are 500 a piece and insurance companies require them if your going to fix their customer cars.

[Draco-REX]

Ok then use the example of buying it on iTunes once, then using on multiple devices that I own. Or recording a song off the radio on a cassette.

You gain a separate license for use each time you put that song on another device. You get these additional licenses free only because the RIAA realized that they'd triple piracy if they did charge you.

 

Recording from the radio falls under Fair Use because there's no encryption or copy protection being circumvented.

 

Do you think someone should be able to decompile someone else's code and make money off of it?

Reselling someone else's code? No. That should be illegal.

 

Modifying? That should be legal.