VW faking emissions tests?

[gillbot]

https://www.yahoo.com/autos/volkswagen-charged-with-hacking-482000-diesels-to-129357726737.html

[unfunnyryan]

Is this why they are the only one selling diesels in cars? Because the other automakers couldn't do it and make it sell, within the EPA requirements?

 

Fuckers

[RyM3rC]

I thought subaru and hyundai got busted doing something like that as well? Wouldn't meet mileage claims, or pollution claims, or some such bullshit?

 

Last year, Hyundai and Kia paid $100 million, and gave up clean-air credits valued at $200 million, for inflating fuel-economy numbers on more than 1 million vehicles.

[gillbot]

To me this is sad, I was onboard with more diesel options becoming available but this is probably the nail in the coffin for diesels.

[Got-Boost?]

Fuck the EPA!

 

Dip shits are doing everything they can to deflect the heat to someone else: http://www.cnn.com/2015/08/09/us/colorado-epa-mine-river-spill/

[SpaceGhost]

Our Ecodiesiel Overland has been awesome. Great purchase.

[spankis]

Fuck the EPA!

 

Dip shits are doing everything they can to deflect the heat to someone else: http://www.cnn.com/2015/08/09/us/colorado-epa-mine-river-spill/

 

Mistakes are made. No organization is perfect... If anything this should highlight why what they do is so important. Getting rid of the epa and hoping everybody "self regulates" would not produce a better batting average.

 

As for the VW situation, I doubt it will be the nail in the coffin for diesels as a whole. It sounds like specifically VW had issues meeting emissions criteria using only a particulate trap or DPF alone (without urea injection which is the standard now), after stricter regulations were forced. Most all current diesels have transitioned to using urea injection after treatment, even semis which adopted the technology almost 10 years ago I think, so there is definitely still a future.

 

Also, I thought i read that it was only an issue in California, as in they cheated only on the stricter California emissions testing. I may have misread that though.

[unfunnyryan]

Also, I thought i read that it was only an issue in California, as in they cheated only on the stricter California emissions testing. I may have misread that though.

 

As I read it, California is doing their own investigation as well and may take separate action.

 

Regardless, California is 12% of the country, and could still be a pretty considerable sum of the vehicles.

[nurkvinny]

Mistakes are made. No organization is perfect...

 

Sorry, we have to hold the EPA to at least as high of a standard as the organizations they've decided they're in charge of.

 

The .gov is definitely ignoring and diverting.

[spankis]

Sorry, we have to hold the EPA to at least as high of a standard as the organizations they've decided they're in charge of.

 

The .gov is definitely ignoring and diverting.

 

I don't disagree at all, and I'm all for a smaller government, but I hear a few Presidential candidates and other politicians suggesting the epa be abolished. I've not really heard it in the context of the river spill or emissions, but more to drill and mine in national parks, allow fracking on all publically owned land etc., etc. There likely need to be changes made certainly, but there needs to be regulation at some level.

 

I think the epa has in some instances been assigned to oversee / regulate some activities and industries that would be better suited for other groups, perhaps at the state level. Emissions is a tough one though, as we all breathe the same air so regulation at the federal level probably does make sense, epa or not.

[Berto]

Mistakes are made. No organization is perfect... If anything this should highlight why what they do is so important. Getting rid of the epa and hoping everybody "self regulates" would not produce a better batting average.

 

As for the VW situation, I doubt it will be the nail in the coffin for diesels as a whole. It sounds like specifically VW had issues meeting emissions criteria using only a particulate trap or DPF alone (without urea injection which is the standard now), after stricter regulations were forced. Most all current diesels have transitioned to using urea injection after treatment, even semis which adopted the technology almost 10 years ago I think, so there is definitely still a future.

 

Also, I thought i read that it was only an issue in California, as in they cheated only on the stricter California emissions testing. I may have misread that though.

 

Urea/DEF became part of the industry for the 2010 product, FYI. (for HD trucks)

 

I know CARB requirements are usually very tight, tighter than EPA. I wouldn't be surprised.

 

This is very interesting indeed. I don't think it will put a nail in the coffin for diesels in cars, in fact it may open up the market. If this venture shows that VW can only meet the emissions regulations with DEF injection, then there are likely many other manufacturers that may be able to get in the market because it is no longer a competitive advantage.

 

If the cars pass cert in 'dyno' mode, there may just be a software change needed in the computer to fix it so the car runs in dyno mode. Not knowing what the differences are. Which brings me to another point. Navistar was one of the only (the only?) engine manufacturer in diesel trucks that maintained their status of 'no DEF' needed for 2010 emissions. Well that didn't go so well and their reliability tanked, and they are now on the DEF injection boat. I wonder if running in dyno mode on these VW's will pose reliability concerns to the engine/system.

[BIGGU]

meh no worries about that all here in my MY2010 Jetta sportwagon TDI.....

[Jewtoys]

meh no worries about that all here in my MY2010 Jetta sportwagon TDI.....

 

Don't those have actual issues though? Cam lobes and fuel pumps exploding?

[Berto]

meh no worries about that all here in my MY2010 Jetta sportwagon TDI.....

 

"The affected cars include VW Jettas, Beetles, Golfs and Audi A3s with diesel engines from the 2009 to 2015 model years, along with diesel VW Passats from 2014-2015."

 

2010 falls right after 2009, FYI.

[unfunnyryan]

If the cars pass cert in 'dyno' mode, there may just be a software change needed in the computer to fix it so the car runs in dyno mode. Not knowing what the differences are. Which brings me to another point. Navistar was one of the only (the only?) engine manufacturer in diesel trucks that maintained their status of 'no DEF' needed for 2010 emissions. Well that didn't go so well and their reliability tanked, and they are now on the DEF injection boat. I wonder if running in dyno mode on these VW's will pose reliability concerns to the engine/system.

 

In "dyno mode" I'm sure they run like shit, robbed of power, just to pass emission test. I'm sure consumers would be happy with that software update, if the car can even reliably function in the long term.

[aussiek2000]

"The affected cars include VW Jettas, Beetles, Golfs and Audi A3s with diesel engines from the 2009 to 2015 model years, along with diesel VW Passats from 2014-2015."

 

2010 falls right after 2009, FYI.

 

No emissions testing in Ohio, other than a select few counties.

[EssFo]

Don't those have actual issues though? Cam lobes and fuel pumps exploding?

 

The PD motors had some cam issues. Only a few years of those.

[El Karacho1647545492]

They just Tom Brady'd the EPA :gabe:

[Versluis]

I think this will be one recall no one wants fixed on their car.

[spankis]

I thought this explained what exactly VW did very well, guy on reddit said the following:

 

"So the short answer is still quite long.

 

They were caught cheating on NOx emissions primarily although all emissions are in a way connected.

 

NOx is created when temperatures and pressures are very high during combustion. Sadly NOx emission is generally higher when your combustion is nice and hot and rapid, which gives higher efficiency (closer to the ideal thermodynamic cycle).

 

So In general if you calibrate the engine with a combustion recipe that atomizes fuel quickly and mixes well youll get more NOx.

 

There are couple of important trade-offs then. Low soot/good combustion = Higher NOx and Low fuel consumption = higher Nox.

 

The EPA therefore defines "clean" as having BOTH low soot AND low NOx, and since those two things are hard to achieve together it takes a good bit of engineering, and in todays world some aftertreatment to achieve it.

 

EGR (exhaust gas recirculation)

Particulate filters

Oxidation catalysts

and SCR calalysts (using Urea as a reactant) all are ways of reducing these combustion products while trying to maintain decent fuel consumption

 

But in VWs case what they did was teach the ECM to recognize when it was being tested. At that time it would switch to the "clean" map. Clean meaning that it meets EPA requirements for both NOx and soot.

 

Then when the test is over (and potentially an OBD drive cycle) it would fall back to its primary driving map. On the driving map it would have been optimized for best fuel economy and performance. Optimized in this case refers to the fuel injection pressure and timing, and possibly EGR and Urea flow, parameters controlled by the ECM.

 

Specifically earlier injection timing gives better power and efficiency but creates more NOx. NOx by the way is totally invisible and odorless.

 

The end result is an engine that will pass an EPA engine emissions certification test, but then will recalibrate itself for driving or (ironically) for the EPA mpg test cycle (which is done in chassis without emissions monitoring). Thus the engineers get to circumvent the very difficult trade-off between NOx and efficiency. The car will produce a lot more NOx in normal driving, and have better fuel economy. Technically not meeting the intent of the emissions law but very hard to detect.

 

If VW correct this via recall the car will be required to run on the "clean" calibration all the time. This will mean poorer fuel economy, I would be speculating to say by how much but VW wouldnt have bothered cheating if it wasnt a significant gain. It may even have implications on durability if certain parameters (like exhaust gas temps, turbocharger RPMs or oil life) are affected as they often are."

 

I would agree that nobody will get it fixed. VW basically installed an automatic efilive style tune switching feature.

[El Karacho1647545492]

I thought this explained what exactly VW did very well, guy on reddit said the following:

 

"So the short answer is still quite long.

 

They were caught cheating on NOx emissions primarily although all emissions are in a way connected.

 

NOx is created when temperatures and pressures are very high during combustion. Sadly NOx emission is generally higher when your combustion is nice and hot and rapid, which gives higher efficiency (closer to the ideal thermodynamic cycle).

 

So In general if you calibrate the engine with a combustion recipe that atomizes fuel quickly and mixes well youll get more NOx.

 

There are couple of important trade-offs then. Low soot/good combustion = Higher NOx and Low fuel consumption = higher Nox.

 

The EPA therefore defines "clean" as having BOTH low soot AND low NOx, and since those two things are hard to achieve together it takes a good bit of engineering, and in todays world some aftertreatment to achieve it.

 

EGR (exhaust gas recirculation)

Particulate filters

Oxidation catalysts

and SCR calalysts (using Urea as a reactant) all are ways of reducing these combustion products while trying to maintain decent fuel consumption

 

But in VWs case what they did was teach the ECM to recognize when it was being tested. At that time it would switch to the "clean" map. Clean meaning that it meets EPA requirements for both NOx and soot.

 

Then when the test is over (and potentially an OBD drive cycle) it would fall back to its primary driving map. On the driving map it would have been optimized for best fuel economy and performance. Optimized in this case refers to the fuel injection pressure and timing, and possibly EGR and Urea flow, parameters controlled by the ECM.

 

Specifically earlier injection timing gives better power and efficiency but creates more NOx. NOx by the way is totally invisible and odorless.

 

The end result is an engine that will pass an EPA engine emissions certification test, but then will recalibrate itself for driving or (ironically) for the EPA mpg test cycle (which is done in chassis without emissions monitoring). Thus the engineers get to circumvent the very difficult trade-off between NOx and efficiency. The car will produce a lot more NOx in normal driving, and have better fuel economy. Technically not meeting the intent of the emissions law but very hard to detect.

 

If VW correct this via recall the car will be required to run on the "clean" calibration all the time. This will mean poorer fuel economy, I would be speculating to say by how much but VW wouldnt have bothered cheating if it wasnt a significant gain. It may even have implications on durability if certain parameters (like exhaust gas temps, turbocharger RPMs or oil life) are affected as they often are."

 

I would agree that nobody will get it fixed. VW basically installed an automatic efilive style tune switching feature.

 

Great explanation.

 

I think one of the main ramifications of this will be warranties; if you don't get the recall done and run your car outside of manufacturer specs, will they honor the warranty? This isn't a Magnusson-Moss Act issue either, I could see federal emissions law trumping that.

[Geeto67]

who wants to guess which way the resale value on these cars is going to go?

 

On the one hand they could get cheap because social outcast and the market dries up for used ones and the resale tanks as the eco-chasers go find something else to drive that isn't a prius.

 

On the other hand they could get more expensive because they are not being sold anymore and they already have a dedicated loyalist following who use the car like a capri sun juice packet sucking every inch of 300+K miles out of it before depositing it in the recycling bin to become a beer can or something.

 

personally I am hoping for the former so I can snag a lower mile TDI jetta wagon with a stick for what a jetta wagon should appropriately sell for without paying the Diesel VW fanboi tax.

[spankis]

This might explain why I've heard so many TDI owners, even with factory non modified cars, report significantly better than rated mileage in reality.

[Patterson]

This might explain why I've heard so many TDI owners, even with factory non modified cars, report significantly better than rated mileage in reality.

 

That's exactly why. Same when an aftermarket tune is uploaded.

 

I don't think resale will be affected much. If at all. VW will weather the storm and move on. Actual cost of it is a matter of a reflash will be minimal. The governmental fines are be a hard pull after much litigation and I would bet there will be plenty.

[El Karacho1647545492]

That's exactly why. Same when an aftermarket tune is uploaded.

 

I don't think resale will be affected much. If at all. VW will weather the storm and move on. Actual cost of it is a matter of a reflash will be minimal. The governmental fines are be a hard pull after much litigation and I would bet there will be plenty.

 

EPA is saying VW could be on the hook for $18bn, which we all know will be settled at a much lower amount. Cut that to 10% and it's still double the fine levied on GM.

 

If there's anything good to come out of this, hopefully it promotes healthy debate on the status quo of diesel emissions regulations, which are insane compared to gas motors. I just hope it doesn't make other manufacturers curtail their potential diesel programs for NA.