Geeto67 Posted January 27, 2016 Report Share Posted January 27, 2016 http://www.huffingtonpost.com/entry/ammon-bundy-arrested_us_56a8267ce4b0f7179928639c The first rule regarding an "occupation" and standoff is - Don't leave the space you are occupying. If it isn't the first rule it should be. Huge spoiler: the guy who publicly said he'd never be taken alive, wasn't. By the way, how did nobody post this little gem: http://www.huffingtonpost.com/entry/sumo-militia-man-dares-chris-christie-to-match-wed-pay-to-see_us_56a6872fe4b0404eb8f28ced Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Orion Posted January 27, 2016 Report Share Posted January 27, 2016 Yeah, I'll be interested to learn who shot first, or if the LEO's were responding to an actual threat. EDIT: I've watched the gif of that gomer getting bodyslammed like 50 times, and it just doesn't get old. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Geeto67 Posted January 27, 2016 Report Share Posted January 27, 2016 Yeah, I'll be interested to learn who shot first, or if the LEO's were responding to an actual threat. Responding as in firing a shot or responding as in the traffic stop? If you meant the traffic stop they don't have to be responding to a threat because the men were already suspects in a criminal case with warrants out for their arrest. The only thing keeping them from being arrested was the entrenched nature of the occupation. the moment they left their little tree fort in the woods they they had know they were going to be arrested. if they didn't, they are dumber than they look. http://www.nbcnews.com/news/us-news/oregon-occupier-lavoy-finicum-warns-fbi-he-d-take-death-n491056 Just by stating in that NBC interview that he (Finicum) was willing to die rather than be arrested and intended to use force should an attempt at arrest should be made means that the agents had the discretion to proceed as if there was an open and active threat in the situation. I'm not saying it's right for the government to kill anybody pre-trial and conviction, but it will be hard to find sympathy for this to be an unjust shooting given the public statements. Pro Tip: if you expect to be taken alive, don't go on TV and say "you won't take me alive". Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Orion Posted January 27, 2016 Report Share Posted January 27, 2016 Understood on all points. However, I have to think that the mention in the articles that "everyone had obeyed orders to surrender" except the two that were shot implies that they were either firing on LEO's, or threatening them in some way (reaching for a weapon, etc). So, I'm curious to know the details of that exchange, thats all. Did the two criminals draw down on LEO's as they approached? Did they wait until the others had complied with orders to surrender? Did the LEO's come out firing, already knowing that at least one person in the group had essentially said that he was going to go down swinging? I'm not at this point questioning the legality of the actions taken. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
greg1647545532 Posted January 27, 2016 Report Share Posted January 27, 2016 Understood on all points. However, I have to think that the mention in the articles that "everyone had obeyed orders to surrender" except the two that were shot implies that they were either firing on LEO's, or threatening them in some way (reaching for a weapon, etc). So, I'm curious to know the details of that exchange, thats all. Did the two criminals draw down on LEO's as they approached? Did they wait until the others had complied with orders to surrender? Did the LEO's come out firing, already knowing that at least one person in the group had essentially said that he was going to go down swinging? I'm not at this point questioning the legality of the actions taken. Second hand information from one of the militiamen, which he got from the cops, is that LaVoy Finicum was driving one of the vehicles. When they were pulled over, Finicum made a run for it with 3 other people in the truck. He encountered a road block and attempted to drive around it, but got stuck. He exited his vehicle and charged at the cops. Given the source, take it with a grain of salt. The other source, Ammon Bundy's wife, says that he had his hands up and was surrending; I'd take that one with a giant bucketful of salt myself. I'm sure there will be dashcam footage eventually, but his body's not even cold. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HotCarl Posted January 27, 2016 Author Report Share Posted January 27, 2016 Second hand information from one of the militiamen, which he got from the cops, is that LaVoy Finicum was driving one of the vehicles. When they were pulled over, Finicum made a run for it with 3 other people in the truck. He encountered a road block and attempted to drive around it, but got stuck. He exited his vehicle and charged at the cops. Given the source, take it with a grain of salt. The other source, Ammon Bundy's wife, says that he had his hands up and was surrending; I'd take that one with a giant bucketful of salt myself. I'm sure there will be dashcam footage eventually, but his body's not even cold. hahaha "HANDS UP DON'T SHOOT!" Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
greg1647545532 Posted January 27, 2016 Report Share Posted January 27, 2016 hahaha "HANDS UP DON'T SHOOT!" The parallels are rather amazing. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sol740 Posted January 27, 2016 Report Share Posted January 27, 2016 One of these days I wish to have my own Oregon Standoff ... pray I don't get dysentery. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
o0n8 Posted January 27, 2016 Report Share Posted January 27, 2016 One of these days I wish to have my own Oregon Standoff ... pray I don't get dysentery. Well done sir. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Orion Posted January 27, 2016 Report Share Posted January 27, 2016 One of these days I wish to have my own Oregon Standoff ... pray I don't get dysentery. Excellently played. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wagner Posted January 29, 2016 Report Share Posted January 29, 2016 hahaha "HANDS UP DON'T SHOOT!" Well, take a look for yourself, hard to tell what all went down. Warning, video of dude getting lit up by gunfire http://www.tacticalshit.com/drone-lavoy-being-shot/ Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Furloaf Posted January 29, 2016 Report Share Posted January 29, 2016 Not sure if he was reaching and got shot, or if he got shot and then reached and got shot some more. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Das Borgen Posted January 29, 2016 Report Share Posted January 29, 2016 His hands weren't up anymore when he got shot. From 00:18 until 00:24 (when he goes down), he was clearly bringing them down. Maybe he was reaching for something. Play stupid games, win stupid prizes Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Turbs3000 Posted January 29, 2016 Report Share Posted January 29, 2016 To me it looked like he reached first then got shot but I bet the agents were pretty hot already as it looks like he nearly runs one of them over that the start of the video. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wagner Posted January 29, 2016 Report Share Posted January 29, 2016 His hands weren't up anymore when he got shot. From 00:18 until 00:24 (when he goes down), he was clearly bringing them down. Maybe he was reaching for something. Play stupid games, win stupid prizes I agree 100%, don't put yourself in the position to tempt LEO to shoot you, period. That being said, a media co-worker brought up an interesting point. The snow looks pretty deep and that he was having a hard time balancing himself, based on this video, how do you know he was not trying to catch his balance? Things happened pretty quick it looks like, I hope they release the other video they claim shows him reaching for the gun. 99% of the time I support LEO, they have a job that is harder than just about any e-expert out there. Unless you are in LEO, you don't have a job where your customers might shoot at you, try to run you over, spit at you, ect... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Das Borgen Posted January 29, 2016 Report Share Posted January 29, 2016 Well, FBI in an interview just now I heard say he reached and confirmed a semi auto pistol in his jacket. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Geeto67 Posted January 29, 2016 Report Share Posted January 29, 2016 Still doesn't matter whether he reached or not. Once you go on tv and tell law enforcement they will never take you alive, taking you in to custody alive no longer becomes a priority or a likely outcome. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sol740 Posted January 29, 2016 Report Share Posted January 29, 2016 You really can't tell what happens, and in what order, but the preceding events certainly color the situation with a tinge of danger, which you don't want when you're facing down a few folks who may be afraid of what you're willing to do. I'm probably your opposite Wagner, I'm very critical of LE, and if anything feel they should be punished all the more severely for proven wrong-doings due to the effect upon the overall system when the public trust begins to breakdown. That said, being critical isn't synonymous with being unfair, and the operative word in that sentence is 'proven'. In the end no matter what this guy said, or what he was involved with, if evidence comes out clearly showing him giving up and then being shot by the police, they should all be prosecuted. If he makes a questionable movement, accidental or not, given the tense nature of the situation the officers have a right to protect their lives and it's a good shoot. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wagner Posted January 29, 2016 Report Share Posted January 29, 2016 You really can't tell what happens, and in what order, but the preceding events certainly color the situation with a tinge of danger, which you don't want when you're facing down a few folks who may be afraid of what you're willing to do. I'm probably your opposite Wagner, I'm very critical of LE, and if anything feel they should be punished all the more severely for proven wrong-doings due to the effect upon the overall system when the public trust begins to breakdown. That said, being critical isn't synonymous with being unfair, and the operative word in that sentence is 'proven'. In the end no matter what this guy said, or what he was involved with, if evidence comes out clearly showing him giving up and then being shot by the police, they should all be prosecuted. If he makes a questionable movement, accidental or not, given the tense nature of the situation the officers have a right to protect their lives and it's a good shoot. Oh I agree, shady cops should get the screws put to them. They are the ones who protect us, they need to be held accountable for their actions. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BigOxley Posted January 29, 2016 Report Share Posted January 29, 2016 that's a good shoot Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
El Karacho1647545492 Posted January 29, 2016 Report Share Posted January 29, 2016 Smart move by the FBI releasing the video so quickly. Pretty clearly shows a series of events that justify their actions. If all they wanted to do was shoot a guy, they had plenty of opportunities to do so without putting their own lives in danger with a roadblock. A quick summary of the undeniable facts as shown in the video: - Finicum drives straight at the roadblock and at the last moment attempts to get around it - Finicum comes extremely close to hitting an agent to the side of the roadblock, an act which is often considered attempt to kill/injure an LEO with a deadly weapon - Finicum exits the car with his hands up, but clearly and repeatedly lowers his hands, for reasons known only to him (though everyone can speculate, that's not fact-based) - Finicum is shot, possibly by multiple officers, but in an extremely less-than-ideal position, as there is a chance that an errant shot by LEOs would hit one of their colleagues as the LEO in the woods was nearly 180 degrees around Finicum from his colleagues in the roadblock. As I understand, LEOs will not fire in this situation unless 1) they're incompetent or 2) it's an absolute last resort in what they believe is a life-or-death situation because they're putting their colleagues at risk. I believe this roadblock was set up by SWAT and FBI so option 1 is less likely. Bottom line; if you don't want to get shot by the police, don't try to run them over and give them reasons to shoot you. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jewtoys Posted January 29, 2016 Report Share Posted January 29, 2016 Looks like he actually pulled a gun, what an idiot. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
spankis Posted January 29, 2016 Report Share Posted January 29, 2016 Do i see flashbangs at around 10:00? Or what is that? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Geeesammy Posted January 29, 2016 Report Share Posted January 29, 2016 Do i see flashbangs at around 10:00? Or what is that? Yes Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
87GT Posted January 29, 2016 Report Share Posted January 29, 2016 http://www.cnn.com/2016/01/28/us/oregon-wildlife-refuge-siege-arrests/index.html "At least twice he reaches for his pocket... in that pocket he had a loaded 9mm semi automatic handgun". Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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