Tax Reform

[zeitgeist57]

Word.

 

Utilizing materials where they are most efficient...can't disagree there. I think we all agree that our tax money isn't being spent in the most efficient ways. Passing over greater debt and an environment worse than what we received it in over to our kids isn't cool.

 

AGREED.

 

Not happy with current administration's performance...yet as an American, will remain hopeful in our collective future.

 

Obama was my President, even though I didn't vote for him. Trump's behavior has made this lifelong Republican miss the good ol' days...

[CRed05]

I'm not the one that's crying about rich people being the root cause of the worlds problems. I can take care of myself, maybe you should do the same and stop playing victim.

 

Rich people aren't the root cause of the world's problems, but corruption is.

 

Playing the victim? Isn't that every Trump voter's battle cry? Not me. I can take care of myself just fine, I'm just concerned for the one's who can't and are dragging the rest of us down with them.

 

I'll gladly contribute a bit more taxes if it means better roads, better public spaces and transportation, better healthcare, less debt, etc.

[greg1647545532]

I loathe people making blanket statements about our inability to empathize because we don't support causes important to others who don't put their own "skin in the game", or fail in their ability to clean up their own house before throwing stones at others.

 

I dunno, for decades Republicans have been arguing that we can't afford things like subsidized health insurance for poor people while at the same time pretending like they genuinely do care about their plight. Frankly, that's hard to square with this recent tax bill.

 

Things Republicans will borrow against our future for: tax cuts for the wealthy, defense spending, pointless wars. Things we can't afford to borrow against our future for: helping poor Americans get medical care.

 

What's been revealed here is that the drum that Republicans have been beating for the past 20 years about fiscal responsibility is nothing more than a fig leaf for social retribution. What we've seen here, through the actions of congress and the words of (presumably) Republican voters in this thread, is, to quote Brandon upthread, "Who gives a shit about the national debt, honestly." Indeed. Never again will Republicans be able to claim that we can't afford something because of the deficit and national debt with any integrity. Even Rand Paul, deficit hawk numero uno, has revealed himself to be a fucking fraud.

 

No, the actual message here is simple: we can afford to subsidize health care for poor people but we shouldn't, because they don't deserve it. It absolutely is about empathy here. This isn't about, "Oh, why should I be forced to pay taxes to pay for shit that I don't use," because even if you say, "Fine, no taxes, we'll just borrow the money like we do for everything else that you don't seem to mind," and the answer is still no.

[BStowers023]

Rich people aren't the root cause of the world's problems, but corruption is.

 

Playing the victim? Isn't that every Trump voter's battle cry? Not me. I can take care of myself just fine, I'm just concerned for the one's who can't and are dragging the rest of us down with them.

 

I'll gladly contribute a bit more taxes if it means better roads, better public spaces and transportation, better healthcare, less debt, etc.

 

So what politician isn't corrupt? Were you complaining about the Obama administration when he was in office, or do you just listen to too much CNN and assume Trump colludes with Russia because he says mean things that you don't like?

 

Well let's see, you've been paying more taxes and how nice are the roads? Do you expect them to get worse? Did your healthcare get better when the Govt put their hand in the system?

 

It's funny you think the issue is the Government not getting enough money when the real issue is responsible spending.

[BStowers023]

AGREED.

 

Not happy with current administration's performance...yet as an American, will remain hopeful in our collective future.

 

Obama was my President, even though I didn't vote for him. Trump's behavior has made this lifelong Republican miss the good ol' days...

 

Why don't you like the current administrations performance? The economy is booming, they just lowered taxes (more monies for us and not them), Trump has put his foot down with foreign country's disrespecting us and pretty much told the UN to go F themselves which has needed to be said for a long time now. We're focusing more on us now and not them. Bringing jobs back to the United States. Putting our foot down on illegal immigration. I think the Trump administration is doing a very good job to say the least. Is he PC? No. Who gives a shit though? The President shouldn't determine social issues, that's on society. I mean, if all you do is listen to the main stream media then I can see why you'd think Trump is the next Hitler.

[BStowers023]

I dunno, for decades Republicans have been arguing that we can't afford things like subsidized health insurance for poor people while at the same time pretending like they genuinely do care about their plight. Frankly, that's hard to square with this recent tax bill.

 

Things Republicans will borrow against our future for: tax cuts for the wealthy, defense spending, pointless wars. Things we can't afford to borrow against our future for: helping poor Americans get medical care.

 

What's been revealed here is that the drum that Republicans have been beating for the past 20 years about fiscal responsibility is nothing more than a fig leaf for social retribution. What we've seen here, through the actions of congress and the words of (presumably) Republican voters in this thread, is, to quote Brandon upthread, "Who gives a shit about the national debt, honestly." Indeed. Never again will Republicans be able to claim that we can't afford something because of the deficit and national debt with any integrity. Even Rand Paul, deficit hawk numero uno, has revealed himself to be a fucking fraud.

 

No, the actual message here is simple: we can afford to subsidize health care for poor people but we shouldn't, because they don't deserve it. It absolutely is about empathy here. This isn't about, "Oh, why should I be forced to pay taxes to pay for shit that I don't use," because even if you say, "Fine, no taxes, we'll just borrow the money like we do for everything else that you don't seem to mind," and the answer is still no.

 

 

I know you weren't quoting me, but I do give a shit about the national debt, but to pretend like anything will get done with it is a joke. Why should we increase social programs? If there are jobs for people to work, why should we increase the amount of hand outs? There are an estimated 21% of Americans on Government assistance. You mean to tell me that roughly 2 out of every 10 people you come across on a daily basis simply aren't capable of providing for themselves? That's non-sense. How will people get out of poverty if we make it easier for them to stay in poverty by giving them enough handouts to scrape by but not succeed. Maybe the difference between my mindset and yours is that I believe in people and you don't.

[CRed05]

So what politician isn't corrupt? Were you complaining about the Obama administration when he was in office, or do you just listen to too much CNN and assume Trump colludes with Russia because he says mean things that you don't like?

 

Well let's see, you've been paying more taxes and how nice are the roads? Do you expect them to get worse? Did your healthcare get better when the Govt put their hand in the system?

 

It's funny you think the issue is the Government not getting enough money when the real issue is responsible spending.

 

You bring up Obama, he wasn't corrupt. Corruption is being in the real estate business and then giving tax cuts to real estate businesses.

 

I don't watch CNN.

 

Infrastructure in the US is generally shit, and something needs to be done there. Lowering taxes won't fix it, but instead proportioning tax money towards it will.

 

Healthcare was getting better. More people had and were paying into healthcare, which means all our premiums are or would have been lower.

 

The issues is both. You can't spend responsibly if you have nothing to spend you big silly!

[greg1647545532]

How will people get out of poverty if we make it easier for them to stay in poverty by giving them enough handouts to scrape by but not succeed. Maybe the difference between my mindset and yours is that I believe in people and you don't.

 

And here you reveal the great lie of the conservative mindset about wanting to help others.

 

Republicans of my parents generation will claim that they like charity, they just don't want to be forced by the government to give. My parents, in fact, are classic Reagan Republicans; they go to church, they donate to the poor, they volunteer with the homeless, but they want to do that stuff of their own volition, not with tax dollars. But that mindset has been supplanted by one that says don't give poor people anything. It will make them weak, and keep them in poverty. Which is bullshit, of course. What's happened is that the cancerous ideas of Ayn Rand have infiltrated the modern conservative movement, to the point where people are convinced that selfishness results in better outcomes for everyone. It's wrong, and it's absurd, but it's explains this visceral reaction conservatives have, not to having to pay taxes to help the poor, which many hardcore conservatives demonstrably don't earn enough to actually do, but to the very idea of the poor getting something for nothing.

 

The fact that you think the difference between you and me is that I don't believe in people is laughable. I believe in society, and you believe that everyone looking out for themselves is what made America great.

[BStowers023]

And here you reveal the great lie of the conservative mindset about wanting to help others.

 

Republicans of my parents generation will claim that they like charity, they just don't want to be forced by the government to give. My parents, in fact, are classic Reagan Republicans; they go to church, they donate to the poor, they volunteer with the homeless, but they want to do that stuff of their own volition, not with tax dollars. But that mindset has been supplanted by one that says don't give poor people anything. It will make them weak, and keep them in poverty. Which is bullshit, of course. What's happened is that the cancerous ideas of Ayn Rand have infiltrated the modern conservative movement, to the point where people are convinced that selfishness results in better outcomes for everyone. It's wrong, and it's absurd, but it's explains this visceral reaction conservatives have, not to having to pay taxes to help the poor, which many hardcore conservatives demonstrably don't earn enough to actually do, but to the very idea of the poor getting something for nothing.

 

The fact that you think the difference between you and me is that I don't believe in people is laughable. I believe in society, and you believe that everyone looking out for themselves is what made America great.

 

 

I have no issue with charity's or people giving to the poor. I don't understand why you can't grasp the difference between the Government forcibly reaching in my pocket and taking what I earned and giving it to someone else without my permission and me voluntarily giving my money out to help the needy?

 

I believe in society also. Where we differ is you think there should be a single entity (The Govt) that takes care of everyone because society won't. Where I believe that society can take care of itself in a more capitalistic style system. You prove my point by bringing up your parents. Would you rather people like your parents have extra money from lower taxes to voluntarily give directly to the needy or would you rather have them give that money to the Government where you truly have no idea exactly where it all goes? If you really care about people in poverty I think the answer here is obvious.

[greg1647545532]

I have no issue with charity's or people giving to the poor. I don't understand why you can't grasp the difference between the Government forcibly reaching in my pocket and taking what I earned and giving it to someone else without my permission and me voluntarily giving my money out to help the needy?

 

Bullshit. Have you not been following the discussion? You don't want social programs even if you don't have to pay for them. It's not about your money and you know it.

 

I believe in society also. Where we differ is you think there should be a single entity (The Govt) that takes care of everyone because society won't. Where I believe that society can take care of itself in a more capitalistic style system. You prove my point by bringing up your parents. Would you rather people like your parents have extra money from lower taxes to voluntarily give to the needy or would you rather have them give that money to the Government where you truly have no idea exactly where it all goes? If you really care about people in poverty I think the answer here is obvious.

 

Bullshit. You just said you don't think poor people should get handouts. If they shouldn't get them from the government because it creates dependence, then why don't the handouts from my parents do the same thing?

 

Pay attention to your own logic, man.

[BStowers023]

Bullshit. Have you not been following the discussion? You don't want social programs even if you don't have to pay for them. It's not about your money and you know it.

 

 

 

Bullshit. You just said you don't think poor people should get handouts. If they shouldn't get them from the government because it creates dependence, then why don't the handouts from my parents do the same thing?

 

Pay attention to your own logic, man.

 

 

How about this logic. People should be allowed to do whatever the hell they want with the money they earn. If they CHOOSE to give it away to the less fortunate, that is THEIR choice. But DO NOT FORCE me to give MY money away to the less fortunate. I will if I choose to do so, but they are NOT my responsibility. Does that clear things up for you? The word of the day is entitled. When used in a sentence: Why do people feel entitled to other peoples money?

[greg1647545532]

How about this logic. People should be allowed to do whatever the hell they want with the money they earn. If they CHOOSE to give it away to the less fortunate, that is THEIR choice. But DO NOT FORCE me to give MY money away to the less fortunate. I will if I choose to do so, but they are NOT my responsibility. Does that clear things up for you? The word of the day is entitlement

 

Great, so why are you OK with taking money from my kids? You should be outraged on their behalf.

 

But you don't care about them, you entitled snot.

[BStowers023]

Great, so why are you OK with taking money from my kids? You should be outraged on their behalf.

 

But you don't care about them, you entitled snot.

 

What money did I take from your kids?

[CRed05]

I think he's talking about social security?

[greg1647545532]

What money did I take from your kids?

 

In order to pay for these tax cuts now, the government is going to have tax people even more in the future. People like my kids. Right? That should make you so goddamn mad.

 

But you don't care as long as you get yours, because you feel entitled to it.

[BStowers023]

I think he's talking about social security?

 

I'm not anywhere close to receiving social security :lolguy:

[BStowers023]

In order to pay for these tax cuts now, the government is going to have tax people even more in the future. People like my kids. Right? That should make you so goddamn mad.

 

But you don't care as long as your get yours, because you feel entitled to it.

 

 

What kind of reverse bullshit logic is this :dumb:

 

Somehow you twist around me not giving more of my money away as me feeling entitled :lolguy:

 

Is it my fault the national debt is where it is? You're blaming the wrong people. You literally think the reason for the national debt being so high is because we are not being taxed enough lmao.

 

And yes I AM ENTITLED TO THE MONEY I EARN. ARE YOU THAT FUCKING STUPID?

[CRed05]

A swing and a miss on social security :dumb:

[greg1647545532]

And yes I AM ENTITLED TO THE MONEY I EARN. ARE YOU THAT FUCKING STUPID?

 

You are, yes. Future generations, fuck those guys, they're not entitled to shit, amiright?

 

Twat.

[BStowers023]

A swing and a miss on social security :dumb:

 

Then you should be more clear about what the hell you're talking about

[CRed05]

Then you should be more clear about what the hell you're talking about

 

Christ...I was making fun of myself for guessing he was talking about SS.

[BStowers023]

You are, yes. Future generations, fuck those guys, they're not entitled to shit, amiright?

 

Twat.

 

 

I don't think it was my generation that put us in this mess. Nice try though!

 

Hypothetical: Lower corporate taxes bring U.S. companies producing overseas back to the U.S. creating more jobs, boosting the economy, providing more jobs and more tax payers and we generate a surplus. Am I saying it will happen? No, but I think it's possible and it's certainly more likely for our debt to decrease by doing that which should naturally reduce social programs.

 

I just find it funny that you blame me for future generations in regards to our national debt while you supported a President who made our national debt sky rocket. You think adding more social programs will reduce the debt? Do you? Well?

[greg1647545532]

I don't think it was my generation that put us in this mess. Nice try though!

 

Hypothetical: Lower corporate taxes bring U.S. companies producing overseas back to the U.S. creating more jobs, boosting the economy, providing more jobs and more tax payers and we generate a surplus. Am I saying it will happen? No, but I think it's possible and it's certainly more likely for our debt to decrease by doing that which should naturally reduce social programs.

 

That's adorable.

 

I just find it funny that you blame me for future generations in regards to our national debt while you supported a President who made our national debt sky rocket. You think adding more social programs will reduce the debt? Do you? Well?

 

I'm not blaming you for future generations getting fucked, I'm just pointing out that you seem to be oddly OK with it.

[BStowers023]

That's adorable.

 

 

 

I'm not blaming you for future generations getting fucked, I'm just pointing out that you seem to be oddly OK with it.

 

No I'm not okay with it but I'm not going to pretend like giving the Government more money will get us out of the hole. Say it with me, responsible spending

[greg1647545532]

No I'm not okay with it but I'm not going to pretend like giving the Government more money will get us out of the hole. Say it with me, responsible spending

 

No way, I'm gonna vote for all those politicians who advocate spending tax dollars irresponsibly.

 

Twat.

 

You know, I've been following politics for a couple decades now and I feel pretty comfortable with which party has a better track record of being better stewards of my money. I'll give you a hint, it's not the party that started 2 wars and continues to bloat an already bloated defense budget. I'm comfortable with my votes. You keep voting for politicians who promise (and only sometimes deliver) lower taxes while doing fuck all to actually curb spending. Republicans are con artists, and their voters buy their bullshit every single election.