National Health Care Bill...A national health scare?

[Uncle Punk]

^This is what will happen when the government gets involved with our healthcare. We are paying for your healthcare so we get to decide your lifestyle, you can no longer participate in the activities above.

[gsxrnurse]

^^ posts like these are a reminder of why we should still have rep

well here is another one, from JRMMiii's link

"People 19 to 29 make up the biggest chunk of the uninsured." <- I bet they are also the ones less likely to need insurance. It really makes Obama's argument sound good when he can use his big numbers.

[Uncle Punk]

Taken from Justins post above.

"Taxes on fancy health plans (40% excise tax); fees on medical-device makers ($2 billion/year starting 2011, then $3 billion/year in 2018); higher Medicare payroll tax for high-income folks; Medicare and Medicaid cuts; fines. Strangest of all—10% tax on indoor tanning."

So people who have good health plans are penalized. Who decides what a fancy health plan is. I thought we were paying too much for healthcare and the government was here to help. How are they helping by INCREASING the costs by taxing them?

[Disclaimer]

I totally agree that people need to adjust their lifestyles... but not ALL people who smoke get cancer, just like not all people who get cancer have smoked. Same can go down the list.

I know girls that can put down more food than me and they're still wafer thin with healthy cholesterol levels.

I think there are MANY exceptions, it's not just a small few when it comes to health, so until we can figure out a root cause - what do we restrict people from doing? "Ok, since you've never smoked, we'll treat your cancer. But, since you didn't wear sunscreen all the days you went outside, we won't treat you if it's skin cancer"

If we can get the country healthy by changing lifestyles, great, grand... but if we start refusing to treat people for their ailments because of some pre-existing condition (i.e. you didn't run 5 miles a day everyday) - then we're back in the same boat as we are now.

[gsxrnurse]

I totally agree that people need to adjust their lifestyles... but not ALL people who smoke get cancer, just like not all people who get cancer have smoked. Same can go down the list.

I know girls that can put down more food than me and they're still wafer thin with healthy cholesterol levels.

I think there are MANY exceptions, it's not just a small few when it comes to health, so until we can figure out a root cause - what do we restrict people from doing? "Ok, since you've never smoked, we'll treat your cancer. But, since you didn't wear sunscreen all the days you went outside, we won't treat you if it's skin cancer"

If we can get the country healthy by changing lifestyles, great, grand... but if we start refusing to treat people for their ailments because of some pre-existing condition (i.e. you didn't run 5 miles a day everyday) - then we're back in the same boat as we are now.

let me know when you start working in a hospital and gets some hands on experience and stop reading links from google.

I bet if you would require a family member to assume the costs of patients with a 0% chance of recovery there would be some open beds in the hospital and some serious cash saved

[Disclaimer]

let me know when you start working in a hospital and gets some hands on experience and stop reading links from google.

I bet if you would require a family member to assume the costs of patients with a 0% chance of recovery there would be some open beds in the hospital and some serious cash saved

I don't understand why I need 'hands-on experience' to understand statistics. If there's one thing I'm good at, it's numbers.

Someone has to assume the costs of a patient... what's your point? If there is a 0% chance, with complete certainty, then there's hospice and other more economical alternatives... it depends on what ailments you're talking about.

Since you're an industry insider... what costs your employer the MOST, what's the single biggest wasteful expense? Fraud, cancer, heart disease, failure to pay for services rendered? Inquiring minds want to know what Central Ohio has issues with.

And, whatever that cost is, what's your solution?

[gsxrnurse]

I don't understand why I need 'hands-on experience' to understand statistics. If there's one thing I'm good at, it's numbers.

Someone has to assume the costs of a patient... what's your point? If there is a 0% chance, with complete certainty, then there's hospice and other more economical alternatives... it depends on what ailments you're talking about.

Since you're an industry insider... what costs your employer the MOST, what's the single biggest wasteful expense? Fraud, cancer, heart disease, failure to pay for services rendered? Inquiring minds want to know what Central Ohio has issues with.

And, whatever that cost is, what's your solution?

you can't ask for MOST because what cost the most is the insurance that doctors have to pay for malpractice insurance and the bill that you are supporting doesn't really do any tort reform does it? Does it say anything about giving hospitals the ability to turn away uninsured illegal aliens?

If you were good at numbers then you would have realized in the first place that this doesn't address the big issues

[shittygsxr]

I don't understand why I need 'hands-on experience' to understand statistics. If there's one thing I'm good at, it's numbers.

Someone has to assume the costs of a patient... what's your point? If there is a 0% chance, with complete certainty, then there's hospice and other more economical alternatives... it depends on what ailments you're talking about.

Since you're an industry insider... what costs your employer the MOST, what's the single biggest wasteful expense? Fraud, cancer, heart disease, failure to pay for services rendered? Inquiring minds want to know what Central Ohio has issues with.

And, whatever that cost is, what's your solution?

Ha. I caught ya! trying to get one past the "dumb masses" you perfectly understand why "hands on" experience is needed to understand statistics. However I will explain it for everyone else.

JRMMiii has a back round in business and any person that has ever sat down in a finance class you learn about "swag analysis". Swag analysis is the ability to start with your end decision and work backwards to the numbers, manipulating them to suit your needs or align with your agenda.For instance Obama wanted to create the perception that many Americans were not covered so he told you 60 millions were not covered, he failed to mention that his group is among those least likely to need coverage. If they were really trying to lookout for the good of mankind then they would have spoken of those who are uninsured and really need the coverage. I bet a large portion of those uninsured 19-29 year olds are college students

[Disclaimer]

I support it as far as it's 'progress', though it's far from perfect.

So, your solution to all this mess is to reduce doctor salaries by reducing the cost of malpractice insurance, and to deny care to a specific subsection of the population?

[gsxrnurse]

Move to Alaska, Healthcare is free.

Whaaaat? My brother lives in Alaska and health care is not free. I just asked him and his response was "if you don't work and have 8 kids it's free."

[Disclaimer]

With car payments and credit cards used to purchase beer' date=' but those poor souls can't afford health insurance.[/quote']

Priorities mang, priorities.

Seriously though, priorities.

[shittygsxr]

I support it as far as it's 'progress', though it's far from perfect.

So, your solution to all this mess is to reduce doctor salaries by reducing the cost of malpractice insurance, and to deny care to a specific subsection of the population?

If 1/3 of your salary went to your malpractice insurance I bet your employer would charge more for your services.

you dodged the statistics comment, that is NOT the JRMMiii that I know and love

[Disclaimer]

Handouts aren't progress. It's a giant slide back wards.

Why don't we take it to the extreme, and say that anyone making less than $30k/yr should just be euthanized, or put on a slow boat to China?

If you can't contribute to society at least at a rate of $15/hr - then we don't need you. Or would you like to set the bar higher?

Edited December 24, 2009 by JRMMiii

[Disclaimer]

you dodged the statistics comment, that is NOT the JRMMiii that I know and love

I did, because you're right... I'm business minded and work backwards. I know the solution I want, and I need to figure out how to get there. Health care is so convoluted though, it's really difficult to navigate to get from here to there - not a straight line.

And, it makes sense that younger people are without a lot of insurance, does that mean they SHOULD be? The elderly are typically financially stable, yet they still carry car insurance if they hit someone.

Don't get me wrong, I'm all for choice and freedom... unless you have a habit of making the wrong choices, like getting a BMW instead of a Cobalt when you've got credit card debt stacked, no health insurance, and barely living hand-to-mouth.

[shittygsxr]

Why don't we take it to the extreme, and says that anyone making less than $30k/yr should just be euthanized, or put on a slow boat to China?

If you can't contribute to society at least at a rate of $15/hr - then we don't need you. Or would you like to set the bar higher?

stop being a hippie, don't act like Americans are all hard working. You live in FUCKING elyria there is a shit ton of lazy fucks everywhere there, you see the shit everyday, you went to school with them. Stop acting like they deserve everything for doing nothing.

I totally understand the rich fucks that were born with everything and have no idea why poor people are poor. Give medical to the kids that can't help themselves, give coverage to the mentally and physically challenged that can't help themselves and give to those that are trying to better themselves(college kids) and fuck everybody else that wont do for themselves.

Obama is not the second coming of Christ he is not helping those that can't he is helping those that wont

[Disclaimer]

Whoa whoa whoa... I'm not FROM elyria. I didn't get educated here. Nip that right in the bud.

Well, if they don't deserve anything, why delay the process? You have until the age of 30 to get your shit together and contribute at a specific rate... otherwise you're 'taken care of', but not in the "welfare-get something for nothing" -sense, in the 'Ol' Yeller'-sense

[shittygsxr]

I did, because you're right... I'm business minded and work backwards. I know the solution I want, and I need to figure out how to get there. Health care is so convoluted though, it's really difficult to navigate to get from here to there - not a straight line.

And, it makes sense that younger people are without a lot of insurance, does that mean they SHOULD be? The elderly are typically financially stable, yet they still carry car insurance if they hit someone.

Don't get me wrong, I'm all for choice and freedom... unless you have a habit of making the wrong choices, like getting a BMW instead of a Cobalt when you've got credit card debt stacked, no health insurance, and barely living hand-to-mouth.

Have you ever noticed that good people that do the right thing usually get what they deserve? They don't analyze everything and work backwards, they do whats right each and every day and things fall in place.

You live there that is close enough.

[Disclaimer]

Have you ever noticed that good people that do the right thing usually get what they deserve? They don't analyze everything and work backwards, they do whats right each and every day and things fall in place.

You live there that is close enough.

Completely agree, but once you're sure #1 is taken care of, you can start figure out how to take care of everyone else. Either because you're altruistic, because you're engineering/business minded that want to make the system more optimal and efficient, or for your own personal reasons.

If you're not part of the solution, you're part of the problem. I take care of mine, but hey, if in the process I can make the system even better, cheaper, etc.... that's more money in my pocket, or less opportunity cost I need to bear.

[shittygsxr]

Completely agree, but once you're sure #1 is taken care of, you can start figure out how to take care of everyone else. Either because you're altruistic, because you're engineering/business minded that want to make the system more optimal and efficient, or for your own personal reasons.

If you're not part of the solution, you're part of the problem. I take care of mine, but hey, if in the process I can make the system even better, cheaper, etc.... that's more money in my pocket, or less opportunity cost I need to bear.

well this is not the way to do it. By far the biggest problem with health care is the insurance company (middle man) that adds nothing zero zip nada to the services provided makes the most money. If their role in the equation was removed or controlled, health care would not cost that much. You pay your plumber, electrician, car repair guy, accountant, ford worker more than you pay the nurse / doctor that keeps your ass alive. Where does the money go?

Edited December 25, 2009 by shittygsxr

[Uncle Punk]

http://chronicle.northcoastnow.com/2009/12/25/invacare-chief-says-health-care-bill-will-force-company-to-move-jobs-to-china/

From the report above

“And forty-five thousand Americans die each year because they are uninsured and can’t get the care they need,” Brown said.

If this is a leader of the democrats, making statements like this, how can they be taken seriously?

[dmagicglock]

...If you're not part of the solution, you're part of the problem...

I think you meant to say....

[Disclaimer]

lulz... science jokes ftw.

And good article Tod. What I find interesting is that the CEO said they're already losing money in the US - so do they make money sending wheelchairs to other countries? Other countries that may have national healthcare?

I don't agree with taxing equipment manufacturers, unless I'm missing something about the cost vs. profit of some of these pieces of equipment. I suppose if it costs $100/wheelchair (including the amortzation of the R&D over life of sales), and they charge $1000 for a wheelchair because that's what insurance/gov't will subsidize... then maybe a tax is reasonable, but I don't know what the margins really are.

[Aerik]

I agree; not knowing the details of their profit margins makes it hard to be really clear on how they should be taxed.

I'm inclined to say that they should be taxed about like I'd want any other manufacturing company to be-- A reasonable tax on profits, with big deductions for making high percentages of their products domestically, or for demonstrably acting in service to the country/ community (ie, donating machines or giving big discounts to charities, etc.).

Edited December 29, 2009 by Aerik

[dmagicglock]

I saw Clark howard talking about this today... How nice would it be if doctors were required to have a "menu" list of all their prices for their services. So you could competitively shop for your medical treatment; more effectively and ahead of time. There's a website http://www.pricedoc.com/ that he gave which is starting to collect this information for many doctors out there.

[fusion]

I saw Clark howard talking about this today... How nice would it be if doctors were required to have a "menu" list of all their prices for their services. So you could competitively shop for your medical treatment; more effectively and ahead of time. There's a website http://www.pricedoc.com/ that he gave which is starting to collect this information for many doctors out there.

Surgery on a fit person isn't the same as an unhealthy one. Diagnosing persons of differing health isn't the same either. It's not like getting work done on your vehicle where it's all basically consistent.