How is that hope and change thing working out for you?

[magley64]

Dumb. So no matter what age you are, if you can't work, your life is worthless. Give me a fucking break!

You're missing my point...

If i'm not physically able to do the things I do at work...I'm not going to be physically capable of doing any of the things I enjoy...

If i can't sit at a desk in front of a computer processing information, there is NO WAY i'll be physically capable of Riding my Bike, Snowboarding, Canoeing, Playing Video Games, Restoring Old Cars, Screwing, or any of the other things that make my life enjoyable...If I can't do the things I enjoy, what's the point of being here? or in other words... If I can't live my life, what's the point of surviving?

it's a gauge of my physical capabilities...and a low bar to set by any stretch of the imagination.

[Aerik]

I understand what he's saying: if you're unable to do the things that make life tolerable, why keep on tolerating it?

More pragmatically, having seen what a long, slow, painful deterioration and death looks like, I'd just as soon make an exit while I retain enough presence of mind to make my own decision. And to not be remembered as some vastly diminished, diaper-wearing, babbling, drooling, spoon-fed invalid. Even though I was an adult when my grandfather died, it takes a serious effort to remember how he was before the last couple of years.

[Lunatik3]

I've always said that if the day came where it would be better for me to die than live I'd kidknap a supermodel and drive a car butt naked off the edge of the grand canyon and throw it to that chick harder than anyman ever could on the way down. Especially cause of that final thrust when we land.

[gearman]

The fact is, GW did the equivalent to all of the afformentioned. Obama would have to be in office 50 years to say all the nonsensical crap that spewed from GW's pie hole. Let's concentrate on something important...like what Michelle is wearing.

[Todd#43]

The only thing SEMI-"socialist" that I support is the OPTION (aka CHOICE) to have public health insurance. Which isn't even socialism since it competes with private sector offerings. That's been debated in multiple other threads...

Is it possible for you to explain how a government controlled "public" health option could actually compete with the private sector offerings?

Better yet, give me one example of a government agency that currently competes with anything in the private sector.

[The King]

Ok dude, some gov't guy tells you to up and leave your home because a storm is coming... what are you gonna do? Leave? Right. No you're going to be like, "Ok thanks, but I have shit to do (job, family, bills) and I don't want to pack up ALL my stuff and leave - I don't think it'll be THAT bad."

It's really easy to armchair quarterback what you'd do in that situation when you don't have to go through it.

I have been through a catagory 2 hurricane...

YOU GET THE HELL OUT OF ITS WAY. This post is ridiculous, 10 days before it hit, they told everyone what the effects would be..

Have you ever been to New Orleans? The city floods after heavy thunderstorms, the city is a bathtub. Blaming the Bush admin for this is ridiculous...

[The King]

I didn't see any missed memos from Clinton's office saying "There are terrorists training to fly planes - you should do something". And NEWS FLASH, the first WTC happened on 2/26/93... a month after Clinton took oath of office. So if you can blame Clinton after a month, I can surely blame Bush after 8 months. If your arguments are good enough, then mine should be more than sufficient.

.

Ridiculous....Clinton had 7 years to stop 9/11, Bush 9 months.... I never blamed Clinton for the first attack on the WTC, I blame him for his inaction...

[dmagicglock]

I do question people's "sanity" to stay when they knew a category 5 hurricane was coming. They even went around on buses with bullhorns telling people to get out of town. .. I mean category one, I might stay myself, 2 is iffy, 3 or above I'm on the first bus out of town. And if I did stay and my house got flooded and I was trapped, I wouldn't blame the federal government for my incompetence...

If you want to get pissed off, how about being pissed off that all of that infrastructure was built below sea level to begin with, and most of it was inside the 100 year flood plain. Better yet, how about them rebuilding a lot of it, still within the 100 year flood plain and once again below sea level. What I love is the higher insurance premiums everyone had to pay to cover the cost to rebuild after Katrina, and now they're only setting themselves up for Epic fail again. Just my two cents on Katrina, since this thread went there.

[Disclaimer]

Is it possible for you to explain how a government controlled "public" health option could actually compete with the private sector offerings?

Better yet, give me one example of a government agency that currently competes with anything in the private sector.

I've explained it numerous times, but your cataracts must have been blurring your vision.

The gov't runs Medicare, correct?

The gov't runs the VA health care, correct?

Who is predominantly on Medicare? Seniors. Why? Because the vast majority are fixed income and they can't afford a private option... what profit driven company would insure a senior (at least not without a ludicrous premium)? Not good business.

That should take care of both your qualms. Who's delusional?

(That was the rep comment left for those interested)

Ridiculous....Clinton had 7 years to stop 9/11, Bush 9 months.... I never blamed Clinton for the first attack on the WTC, I blame him for his inaction...

Well, then apparently I need educated then as to what intelligence Clinton had that could've warned him of 9/11 and given him information which which he could act on and neglected to?

Still doesn't explain why GHWB let the first bombing happen then?

[chevysoldier]

I have been through a catagory 2 hurricane...

YOU GET THE HELL OUT OF ITS WAY. This post is ridiculous, 10 days before it hit, they told everyone what the effects would be..

Have you ever been to New Orleans? The city floods after heavy thunderstorms, the city is a bathtub. Blaming the Bush admin for this is ridiculous...

If i lived there I would always have supplies at the ready (MRE's, water, boards, nails etc) Not running around at the last minute. Also the state must ask for assistance. The president can't just send troops in. The Govenor must ask for help. This is why for when Gustav hit, practically every NG unit was there. They learned from Katrina and wanted all the help they could get. So many troops went that many of them didn't have a thing to do.

Like the line in "Man of the Year" and I know this isn't word for word-

"Diapers and politicans should be chaged frequently and for the same reason"

[dmagicglock]

not to stir the pot but didn't those seniors pay into their medicare through the FICA tax? And in FICA, medicare is uncapped, where social security caps out at 125k of annual earnings I believe? I am not sure that I agree with Medicare but at least they've somewhat paid for it and its not a complete handout (for some people).

[Mr Anderson]

[Hondajt]

wow. why is that when politics are involved, everyone thinks they can do better?

[Hondajt]

I understand what he's saying: if you're unable to do the things that make life tolerable, why keep on tolerating it?

Have you ever met an Atheist?

Hello!! I go through life, knowing that in the end, I rot with the worms. There is no afterlife.

So why do I keep tolerating life? Interesting question...but I will

[gearman]

I own a small business and I can tell you that healthcare is a significant expense. It is not uncommon for medical insurance premiums to increase 2~3 times the rate of inflation annually. As a result of the constant increase, more and more working Americans are uninsured or underinsured. If the petroleum industry subjected us to such increases, the "Uncle Sam, sit your ass in the corner and STFU" crowd would be screaming for the government to stop the rape. Healthcare costs broke the back of the domestic auto industry and will eventually do the same to all US business.

[SAMBUSA]

Glad I spent the day in the woods and not online...........

[Todd#43]

I've explained it numerous times, but your cataracts must have been blurring your vision.

The gov't runs Medicare, correct?

The gov't runs the VA health care, correct?

Who is predominantly on Medicare? Seniors. Why? Because the vast majority are fixed income and they can't afford a private option... what profit driven company would insure a senior (at least not without a ludicrous premium)? Not good business.

That should take care of both your qualms. Who's delusional?

(That was the rep comment left for those interested)

Lets take care of the rep comment first - boo fucking hoo....go cry somewhere else. I signed my shit, pussy.

Yes, the government runs medicare, as well as the VA system. They also run medicaid.

Medicare IS for seniors, and most people have to pay for a supplement to get any kind of coverage. Fact is its not FREE, not entirely anyway, and the government certainly doesnt make a profit at it. Those that have Medicare alone, without a supplement are getting bottom of the barrel coverage, I assure you.

The VA is the same, and along with Medicare and Medicaid its a cesspool of fraud and deceit. Ever know anyone that was covered by the VA program that REALLY needed something that got nothing but the run around instead of REAL health care??

So, cupcake, back to my original question - how does a public option COMPETE with private insurance? All you've done is tell me about two alternatives to private insurance that cover a certain subset of our population.

The answer is they don't compete. The government negotiates with Doctors, Hospitals and other providers the rates and prices for services. They basically force providers to take what they're willing to pay and they STILL RUN IT AT A LOSS. How the fuck does that happen? If you could set the prices for everything you buy, wouldn't you set the prices at a point where you'd have some money left over, or at least break even? Of course you would. In the case of the Government run health care programs they just keep throwing money at it and keep getting further behind. Pretty typical of the government though. They cant even break even delivering letters that cost almost $0.50 each to mail.

At the end of the day, private insurance companies have to answer to someone - whether it be shareholders, the bank, employees, what have you. They have to pay the providers, there are MOUNTAINS of Government regulations that they have to comply with, and maintain a set "cash reserve". All of it costs money. They don't have the option to "print more money" like the government does.

So, one more time - explain to me how the "government options" compete with private insurance. Certainly they are "alternatives" to private coverage, but they're shitty alternatives.

[Todd#43]

Healthcare costs broke the back of the domestic auto industry and will eventually do the same to all US business.

Overpaid Union Labor and a shitty product fucked Detroit, not healthcare costs.

[Aerik]

Have you ever met an Atheist?

Hello!! I go through life, knowing that in the end, I rot with the worms. There is no afterlife.

So why do I keep tolerating life? Interesting question...but I will

I am an Atheist. I tolerate life because it's where I am, so I may as well try to do something useful with it.

[chevysoldier]

Overpaid Union Labor and a shitty product fucked Detroit, not healthcare costs.

But isn't that why the US Government gave a private industry money? To help them out? I drive a Chevy (when I'm not on two wheels) so is it not my obligation to give them money when the big-wigs where not able to handle their money properly?

[Mr Anderson]

wow. why is that when politics are involved, everyone thinks they can do better?

Because in an alternate reality..you could be the president.

[Disclaimer]

Medicare IS for seniors, and most people have to pay for a supplement to get any kind of coverage. Fact is its not FREE, not entirely anyway, and the government certainly doesnt make a profit at it. Those that have Medicare alone, without a supplement are getting bottom of the barrel coverage, I assure you.

Why should health care be FOR profit? Even if your skewed perspective is accurate against reality, bottom of the barrel coverage is better than NO coverage.

The VA is the same, and along with Medicare and Medicaid its a cesspool of fraud and deceit. Ever know anyone that was covered by the VA program that REALLY needed something that got nothing but the run around instead of REAL health care??

Since you continually ignore the facts and issues based on your own personal opinions... I'll just point you to other posts I've made on it because there's no sense wasting my breath on it twice.

http://www.ohio-riders.com/showpost.php?p=256271&postcount=45

http://www.ohio-riders.com/showpost.php?p=256346&postcount=53

So, cupcake, back to my original question - how does a public option COMPETE with private insurance? All you've done is tell me about two alternatives to private insurance that cover a certain subset of our population.

My point is that the private sector CANNOT compete with those segments, so they quit. That's why the lobby is so hard to keep the current UNSUSTAINABLE SYSTEM in place. If the gov't steps in, they're worried they can't compete. If private insurance was the greatest, why don't more VAs or seniors pick it up?

The answer is they don't compete. The government negotiates with Doctors, Hospitals and other providers the rates and prices for services. *blah blah blah*

Yea, because private insurance doesn't do the EXACT SAME F*(KING THING!?

They cant even break even delivering letters that cost almost $0.50 each to mail.

Whoa, totally convincing argument, a postal service comparison - I am SOLD!!!

Funny, because I don't see UPS delivering first class mail and companies sending letters via UPS in a cost effective manner... I still get most of my bills via the Postal Service, I dunno wtf you're living.

At the end of the day, private insurance companies have to answer to someone - whether it be shareholders, the bank, employees, what have you. They have to pay the providers, there are MOUNTAINS of Government regulations that they have to comply with, and maintain a set "cash reserve". All of it costs money. They don't have the option to "print more money" like the government does.

And the gov't answers to no one, apparently? I vote - so they do have to answer to me. I can't vote out the CEO of a company that does a shitty job running my insurance plan - nor can I prevent that insurance plan from dropping me for no reason at all, after years of premiums. If you're pro-racketeering that's on you, but that's a douchebag stance.

So, one more time - explain to me how the "government options" compete with private insurance. Certainly they are "alternatives" to private coverage, but they're shitty alternatives.

Then don't take the alternative, Jesus! It's not rocket surgery (to quote Duane's sign). If you want your damn private insurance for $70/mo - keep it! If you don't want to be assimilated like the rest of us with the choice of the $30/mo plan... then so be it. Don't CHOOSE it. What's it hurting you? You have your PRIVATE choice - so go suck on that tit instead of the gov't one. That's what the lobby is afraid of, which why should they? If the gov't is SOO BAD and SOO INEFFICIENT, then private insurance will have no issues competing in the market.

http://www.ohio-riders.com/showpost.php?p=256211&postcount=42

Edited August 26, 2009 by JRMMiii

[max power]

This thread has caught the ghey.

[The King]

Overpaid Union Labor and a shitty product fucked Detroit, not healthcare costs.

It was the Pensions that got GM. The autos that have been coming out for the last 15 years have been of a decent quality, but when GM has to charge a grand more per car just pay their pensions....you are not going to survive against youur competitors..

You can't blame the Unions for the Pension deal, they only took what GM gave... GM was generous because at the time of the deal, they had something like a 60% market share...

[Todd#43]

Why should health care be FOR profit? Even if your skewed perspective is accurate against reality, bottom of the barrel coverage is better than NO coverage.

Why shouldn't it be for profit? Seriously. Is there something wrong with making a profit? Do you expect to make a profit in your chosen profession? Of course you do. Why should a doctor or an insurance company be any different?

Since you continually ignore the facts and issues based on your own personal opinions... I'll just point you to other posts I've made on it because there's no sense wasting my breath on it twice.

http://www.ohio-riders.com/showpost.php?p=256271&postcount=45

http://www.ohio-riders.com/showpost.php?p=256346&postcount=53

If you cant waste your breath to say it again, it must not have been very important. I'm not going to waste my time clicking around here to see more of your drivel.

My point is that the private sector CANNOT compete with those segments, so they quit. That's why the lobby is so hard to keep the current UNSUSTAINABLE SYSTEM in place. If the gov't steps in, they're worried they can't compete. If private insurance was the greatest, why don't more VAs or seniors pick it up?

You're right, they can't compete with those sectors because for the most part they're bad risks, and too many people are sheep and are happy with the government program. Or, they cant afford it. Not everyone can afford everything. Thats the way it goes in a market driven economy. Tough shit.

Of course they're worried that they can't compete - the government doesnt have any fiduciary responsibility to anyone.

Yea, because private insurance doesn't do the EXACT SAME F*(KING THING!?

Yes, they do. The difference is at the end of the day they have a responsibility to make money. The government plans dont have that responsibility, therefore they don't compete.

Whoa, totally convincing argument, a postal service comparison - I am SOLD!!!

Funny, because I don't see UPS delivering first class mail and companies sending letters via UPS in a cost effective manner... I still get most of my bills via the Postal Service, I dunno wtf you're living.

UPS and FedEx dont deliver first class mail because they can't do it for the same price as the government does it for. The "public option" has lost $4.7 billion in the first 3/4 of the year. Oddly enough, it would seem that the government cant do it for that price either. No worries, they'll just dump more money at it. Private companies can't do that forever.

And the gov't answers to no one, apparently? I vote - so they do have to answer to me. I can't vote out the CEO of a company that does a shitty job running my insurance plan - nor can I prevent that insurance plan from dropping me for no reason at all, after years of premiums. If you're pro-racketeering that's on you, but that's a douchebag stance.

Oddly enough you CAN vote out a CEO of a publicly traded company. If you own stock you have a vote as a shareholder. If you're a customer you can vote with your wallet and choose not to patronize a certain company. If you think that you have more sway over what goes on in Washington with career polititcians you're more delusional than I thought. For those folks its all about the money too, and until we have REAL campaign finance reform and term limits for congress its never going to change. (That's a topic for another discussion though)

Then don't take the alternative, Jesus! It's not rocket surgery (to quote Duane's sign). If you want your damn private insurance for $70/mo - keep it! If you don't want to be assimilated like the rest of us with the choice of the $30/mo plan... then so be it. Don't CHOOSE it. What's it hurting you? You have your PRIVATE choice - so go suck on that tit instead of the gov't one. That's what the lobby is afraid of, which why should they? If the gov't is SOO BAD and SOO INEFFICIENT, then private insurance will have no issues competing in the market.

http://www.ohio-riders.com/showpost.php?p=256211&postcount=42

I don't know what kind of coverage you're getting for $70.00 per month. I own my own company. Health insurance for my employees costs me (on average) $350.00 per month for an individual and $795.00 per month for those with a family. If I could get it for $70.00 per month I'd do it in a heartbeat.

Take the alternative? Like I have with the post office? Oh wait, there is no other choice because private companies CAN'T COMPETE. Sadly, that's what will happen to the health care system. As time goes by, there will bet fewer and fewer "choices" until the government option is the only one. Then we'll all be stuck with the same shitty level of service.

Finally, the private companies DON'T FUCKING COMPETE WITH THE GOVERNMENT BECAUSE THE GOVERNMENT DOESNT HAVE TO PLAY BY THE SAME RULES AS PRIVATE COMPANIES. They're not forced (by market conditions) to offer a quality product. With the government you get what you get. Period. If that's what you want, good for you. I don't want it.