Casper Posted May 21, 2010 Report Share Posted May 21, 2010 Our country is more divided than ever with topics like immigration, the recession, our country's debt, our citizens' personal debts, healthcare, taxes, politicians in Washing not giving two shits about us the people, et cetera steaming to a boiling point. So, what do you think will happen? This is not a thread for debate of the topics at hand. I don't care if you're a liberal or a conservative. I just want to hear what you think is going to happen. I have been thinking for a few years that we're facing another civil war. With states going up against other states over immigration, I don't see this having a good outcome. Throw in the civil unrest with the people of this country, and you have a pot just about to boil over. So what do you think? Will our fine leaders (read fucking idiots) in Washington be able to save this country? Will we be speaking Chinese by 2020? Will one world government be pushed on us under the guise of financial and economic recovery? What's you shtick? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
chevysoldier Posted May 21, 2010 Report Share Posted May 21, 2010 Second American Revolution. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jbot Posted May 21, 2010 Report Share Posted May 21, 2010 zombie apocalypse. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fusion Posted May 21, 2010 Report Share Posted May 21, 2010 Nothing is going to happen. Those making all the racket on both sides are a minority. The fact that you say, "I don't care if you're a liberal or a conservative." is telling enough. Believe it or not most are neither. Huge portions, a considerable number who don't vote, sit in the middle where things make sense. A big enough push from the ends of the spectrum though and you're going to find a huge population of those in the middle stomping the crap out of both of you. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Casper Posted May 21, 2010 Author Report Share Posted May 21, 2010 Nothing is going to happen. Those making all the racket on both sides are a minority. The fact that you say, "I don't care if you're a liberal or a conservative." is telling enough. Believe it or not most are neither. Huge portions, a considerable number who don't vote, sit in the middle where things make sense. A big enough push from the ends of the spectrum though and you're going to find a huge population of those in the middle stomping the crap out of both of you.That was my point. The people in the middle are usually the ones willing to have a conversation like this. The ones on either ends of the spectrum are using the poo throwing monkeys. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fusion Posted May 21, 2010 Report Share Posted May 21, 2010 That was my point. The people in the middle are usually the ones willing to have a conversation like this. The ones on either ends of the spectrum are using the poo throwing monkeys.I agree. Though I think there a lot of people who say they are in the middle that actually push farther to a side then they think. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
chevysoldier Posted May 21, 2010 Report Share Posted May 21, 2010 But if the people in the middle are where it makes sense why just sit there and take it. Vote to make a difference? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Casper Posted May 21, 2010 Author Report Share Posted May 21, 2010 I agree. Though I think there a lot of people who say they are in the middle that actually push farther to a side then they think.I consider the Constitution the middle. It's Gospel. That's where I am, and I don't stray from it. Abortion? It ain't listed, give it to the states. Drug legalization? It ain't listed, give it to the states. Universal healthcare? It ain't listed, give it to the states. I think you'll see my trend here. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fusion Posted May 21, 2010 Report Share Posted May 21, 2010 But if the people in the middle are where it makes sense why just sit there and take it. Vote to make a difference?Because they realize things aren't as far off as people seem to think it is. Being in the middle you agree with both sides to a point and the middle watches it sway. It gets too out of hand and the middle will speak up. The middle realizes there are things that need fixed, but they aren't as out of hand as those on the ends think they are (or at least like to scream they are).You only think they are "taking it" because you sit out on an end where it looks way out of whack from your perspective. Sit in the middle and you realize it's not as bad as you think.Correction and balance take time and we are a young country. It is unfortunate however the number of people on the ends trying to ruin what a great place this can be. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fusion Posted May 21, 2010 Report Share Posted May 21, 2010 I consider the Constitution the middle. It's Gospel. That's where I am, and I don't stray from it. Abortion? It ain't listed, give it to the states. Drug legalization? It ain't listed, give it to the states. Universal healthcare? It ain't listed, give it to the states. I think you'll see my trend here.Even the writers realized the Constitution needed to live and breath to maintain balance for everyone in all of the United States. Some things need to be relegated to the states and others not. You're a smart guy, you don't honestly believe they think they had everything covered from the beginning. I bet there are things not covered you could come up with that should be handled at the Federal level. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Casper Posted May 21, 2010 Author Report Share Posted May 21, 2010 Because they realize things aren't as far off as people seem to think it is. Being in the middle you agree with both sides to a point and the middle watches it sway. It gets too out of hand and the middle will speak up. The middle realizes there are things that need fixed, but they aren't as out of hand as those on the ends think they are (or at least like to scream they are).You only think they are "taking it" because you sit out on an end where it looks way out of whack from your perspective. Sit in the middle and you realize it's not as bad as you think.Correction and balance take time and we are a young country. It is unfortunate however the number of people on the ends trying to ruin what a great place this can be.I think your middle and my middle are VERY different. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Casper Posted May 21, 2010 Author Report Share Posted May 21, 2010 Even the writers realized the Constitution needed to live and breath to maintain balance for everyone in all of the United States. Some things need to be relegated to the states and others not. You're a smart guy, you don't honestly believe they think they had everything covered from the beginning. I bet there are things not covered you could come up with that should be handled at the Federal level.I agree, thus we have amendments. But the Constitution clearly states anything not addressed by it is left to the states. That was the point of America. Several governments all under the gentle guidance and protection of a larger, Federal government. So many have forgotten this, or just pushed it aside. The Federal government was never intended to be this big. It was never SUPPOSED to be this big. We've been duped into everything from Federal income taxes to "healthcare". Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Disclaimer Posted May 21, 2010 Report Share Posted May 21, 2010 Why bother with a Constitution?Everything I ever needed to know was always in this book(Now on GBA!)/stir pot and leave Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fusion Posted May 21, 2010 Report Share Posted May 21, 2010 I agree, thus we have amendments. But the Constitution clearly states anything not addressed by it is left to the states. That was the point of America. Several governments all under the gentle guidance and protection of a larger, Federal government. So many have forgotten this, or just pushed it aside. The Federal government was never intended to be this big. It was never SUPPOSED to be this big. We've been duped into everything from Federal income taxes to "healthcare".I agree to a point. I'm willing to bet they never thought we would be this large or varied either. Most coming here originally were trying to escape largely church controlled states. Of course it seems there are those (particularly on the right) that seem to forget that also. Our founder's view of the world was quite different than ours today.Federal income taxes is a touchy area because there always have been taxes in some form and they have just adapted as new needs occurred. First certain type of businesses where taxed, then tariffs, then if I remember correctly the first federal income taxes where needed to support the Civil War and then back and forth a bit until we have what we have now. As the country grows the way it does business needs to adapt and there needs to be a balance.Health care I'm on the fence about. Any country that can't take care of its people in need is not a country worth living in. I don't like how it's being approached currently and I certainly hate the fact that this, like many other things, is merely used as a political tool by most in both parties making any attempt at something workable worthless. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Casper Posted May 21, 2010 Author Report Share Posted May 21, 2010 Why bother with a Constitution?Everything I ever needed to know was always in this book(Now on GBA!)/stir pot and leave Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fusion Posted May 21, 2010 Report Share Posted May 21, 2010 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Casper Posted May 21, 2010 Author Report Share Posted May 21, 2010 I agree to a point. I'm willing to bet they never thought we would be this large or varied either. Most coming here originally were trying to escape largely church controlled states. Of course it seems there are those (particularly on the right) that seem to forget that also. Our founder's view of the world was quite different than ours today. Separation of church and state was included in the Constitution for that very reason. No religion can be forced on anyone, nor can any religion be the influence of government actions. "God" is a reference to everyone's "God", not the Christian "God". If you worship cows, then cows are your "God". The ONLY one's who have a right to bitch about it are atheists; and really, who cares. If you're not a religious person, that's between you and the afterlife. Federal income taxes is a touchy area because there always have been taxes in some form and they have just adapted as new needs occurred. First certain type of businesses where taxed, then tariffs, then if I remember correctly the first federal income taxes where needed to support the Civil War and then back and forth a bit until we have what we have now. As the country grows the way it does business needs to adapt and there needs to be a balance. I may be rusty on this, but I'm pretty sure the 16th amendment was ratified somewhere between 1913 and 1916 to help pay for Federal defense. Then in 1916, it was raised to 2% to help pay for WWI. It was supposed to be dropped back down, but never was. Instead, it steadily increased until 1981 or 1986 I believe. Again, I'm a bit rusty with this. Health care I'm on the fence about. Any country that can't take care of its people in need is not a country worth living in. I don't like how it's being approached currently and I certainly hate the fact that this, like many other things, is merely used as a political tool by most in both parties making any attempt at something workable worthless. Every country who supplies healthcare is failing miserably at it. Socialism doesn't work. Like I've said before, the biggest healthcare problem in this country was the cost. That needed addressed before trying to enact anything forcing Americans to have health insurance. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fusion Posted May 21, 2010 Report Share Posted May 21, 2010 Separation of church and state was included in the Constitution for that very reason. No religion can be forced on anyone, nor can any religion be the influence of government actions. "God" is a reference to everyone's "God", not the Christian "God". If you worship cows, then cows are your "God". The ONLY one's who have a right to bitch about it are atheists; and really, who cares. If you're not a religious person, that's between you and the afterlife. Right but that's one of their MAJOR reasons for keeping federal government small is the point. Anyone who says 'God' is a reference to anyone's god is being intellectually dishonest and saying "who cares" about atheists is disappointing. You can't have freedom of religion without freedom from religion. I may be rusty on this, but I'm pretty sure the 16th amendment was ratified somewhere between 1913 and 1916 to help pay for Federal defense. Then in 1916, it was raised to 2% to help pay for WWI. It was supposed to be dropped back down, but never was. Instead, it steadily increased until 1981 or 1986 I believe. Again, I'm a bit rusty with this. Federal income taxes came and went (a couple of times) before the 16th the first being implemented to support the Civil War at 3%. Federal taxes have ALWAYS been around. Every country who supplies healthcare is failing miserably at it. Socialism doesn't work. Like I've said before, the biggest healthcare problem in this country was the cost. That needed addressed before trying to enact anything forcing Americans to have health insurance.There's that fancy socialism term people like to throw around. I'm waiting for the next McCarthy...Saying socialism doesn't work is like saying a democracy doesn't work. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
YSR_Racer_99 Posted May 21, 2010 Report Share Posted May 21, 2010 Why is healthcare considered a "right"? Its a service. NOBODY in this country is denied needed healthcare. Nobody. Do the hospitals want to get paid for services they provide, and can they be aggressive about it? Yep. Do YOU work for free? At all? On a large scale? And don't get me started on anchor babies....The Bible tells us what is happening, and how it will likely end up. Re: "the middle": people are paying more attention. The Left thinks all media is biased to the right, and The Right thinks just the opposite (though neutral studies have shown which way the bias seems to lean, factually). The Right says we're a "center-right" country, and (of course) The Left says we're all "center-left". I'm new here, and have never met any of you, but I think Casper is someone I could have a beer with....They just said "change". Never said it was going to be good for the country...Jeff Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Casper Posted May 21, 2010 Author Report Share Posted May 21, 2010 Right but that's one of their MAJOR reasons for keeping federal government small is the point. Anyone who says 'God' is a reference to anyone's god is being intellectually dishonest and saying "who cares" about atheists is disappointing. You can't have freedom of religion without freedom from religion. That was my "who cares". I don't care if you worship cows, butterflies, or nothing. Don't push your religion or lack of on me and I don't care. I have friends who are Muslim, Jewish, Catholic, Mormon, etc... and I just don't care. Federal income taxes came and went (a couple of times) before the 16th the first being implemented to support the Civil War at 3%. Federal taxes have ALWAYS been around. It was an income tax, but it was a flat rate tax for everyone. It was put in place I believe in 1865, but ruled unconstitutional I believe in 1866? Those year seems off to me, but it was less than a full year later it was ruled unconstitutional. The first form of modern income taxes was in 1913 with a set percentage per income bracket, going to 20-something percent for those who made more than $1.5 million. I've written a few papers on tax code. There's that fancy socialism term people like to throw around. I'm waiting for the next McCarthy...Saying socialism doesn't work is like saying a democracy doesn't work.http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_socialist_countriesNotice a trend there? Like, during the last big global recession in the late 80s early 90s a LARGE major of socialist countries dropped socialism? That's because it didn't work. Socialism hemorrhages money. The only country making it work successfully is China. You want to live in China? Here are countries moving from socialism to capitalism: http://www.ontheissues.org/askme/transition.htm Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fusion Posted May 21, 2010 Report Share Posted May 21, 2010 Why is healthcare considered a "right"? Its a service. NOBODY in this country is denied needed healthcare. Nobody. Do the hospitals want to get paid for services they provide, and can they be aggressive about it? Yep. Who do you think pays for those services when the people who can't afford them show up in the ER? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fusion Posted May 21, 2010 Report Share Posted May 21, 2010 That was my "who cares". I don't care if you worship cows, butterflies, or nothing. Don't push your religion or lack of on me and I don't care. I have friends who are Muslim, Jewish, Catholic, Mormon, etc... and I just don't care. Accept for the glossing over of what the reference "God" means of course... It was an income tax, but it was a flat rate tax for everyone. It was put in place I believe in 1865, but ruled unconstitutional I believe in 1866? Those year seems off to me, but it was less than a full year later it was ruled unconstitutional. The first form of modern income taxes was in 1913 with a set percentage per income bracket, going to 20-something percent for those who made more than $1.5 million. I've written a few papers on tax code. It was a flat tax one anyone making over $800 and wasn't found unconstitutional. The income tax its self was never found unconstitutional. It was the type and apportionment of taxes that was in relation to income earned from personal property I believe. The 16th also affected apportionment.http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_socialist_countriesNotice a trend there? Like, during the last big global recession in the late 80s early 90s a LARGE major of socialist countries dropped socialism? That's because it didn't work. Socialism hemorrhages money. The only country making it work successfully is China. You want to live in China? Here are countries moving from socialism to capitalism: http://www.ontheissues.org/askme/transition.htmWe weren't talking about socialist states. You said socialism never works. Guess what pure democracies never work and neither do pure capitalist economies. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
magley64 Posted May 21, 2010 Report Share Posted May 21, 2010 The ONLY one's who have a right to bitch about it are atheists; and really, who cares. If you're not a religious person, that's between you and the afterlife. You called?I got bad news for those of you looking for an afterlife, this isn't a "life appetizer" this is all we get, enjoy it. You don't get a second chance. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rod38um Posted May 27, 2010 Report Share Posted May 27, 2010 Separation of church and state was included in the Constitution for that very reason.Uh...... it wasn't included in the constitution. It said this: "Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof; or abridging the freedom of speech, or of the press; or the right of the people peaceably to assemble, and to petition the Government for a redress of grievances" Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
drew95gt Posted May 27, 2010 Report Share Posted May 27, 2010 I consider the Constitution the middle. It's Gospel. That's where I am, and I don't stray from it. Abortion? It ain't listed, give it to the states. Drug legalization? It ain't listed, give it to the states. Universal healthcare? It ain't listed, give it to the states. I think you'll see my trend here.I am a Libertarian and I agree 100%. The major problem with this country is the Federal Government, mostly how big and invasive it has become. I totally disagree with the collection of the Federal Income Tax for starters. I think if people were just sent a big bill at the end of every year for the tax dollars that they "owe" instead of the government withholding it out little by little with each paycheck then people would realize how bad they are getting the shaft. Secondly, I get sooo tired of seeing all of the unmotivated, uneducated, welfare baby making people out there living decent comfortable lives off of the hardworking taxpayers money. This is such a disincentive...and it is just wrong to reward this kind of behavior. It is one thing for a displaced worker to have a little rough patch and need some temporary financial assistance...it is completely another for a person to live the majority of their lives on welfare and not trying to find work while popping out kid after kid to collect a bigger check. I could go on and on about what bugs me in this country but these are two of the biggies for me. I think when the middle class finishes crumbling (thanks in part to NAFTA and our state and federal governments) there will be a big "class war" between those that have all the money and influence and those that have had their money taken and jobs outsourced. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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