Senate Bill 5

[Casper]

Hope it's a quiet night for ya!

Ditto.

[drew95gt]

I can't get behind this bill...coming from a family of teachers. You make a good argument Ben and as a fellow Libertarian I know I should be on board but I just can't. Teachers, LEOs, and Firefighter/medics are grossly underpaid as it is IMO. I think that a solely performance based incentive system leaves too much open to as what is the acceptable level of performance...which I am sure will be decided by a political panel behind closed doors that has no idea what it is like to actually show up everyday and do these demanding jobs. A combined annual & performance incentive system I would support as I agree with the earlier post that they need not be mutually exclusive.

Edited February 18, 2011 by drew95gt

[C-bus]

I can't get behind this bill...coming from a family of teachers. You make a good argument Ben and as a fellow Libertarian I know I should be on board but I just can't. Teachers, LEOs, and Firefighter/medics are grossly underpaid as it is IMO. I think that a solely performance based incentive system leaves too much open to as what is the acceptable level of performance...which I am sure will be decided by a political panel behind closed doors that has no idea what it is like to actually show up everyday and do these demanding jobs. A combined annual & performance incentive system I would support as I agree with the earlier post that they need not be mutually exclusive.

Average Columbus city teacher makes north of $50k, works 7 hours per day for 180 days per year..... $39.68 per hour. Wife is a teacher, mom was a teacher. Not saying "overpaid", but let's lose the "underpaid" myth. It's a pretty good gig.

[jnor]

Part of the reason unions have gained so much from the employers is that for the last 20-25 years the employers i.e. auto industry, states, cities etc. have had is so good they bargained bad (for them) contracts.....They "gave away the farm" to the unions...not the unions fault, they asked for the moon, and the employers agreed. Now times are bad, and the employers are still bound with the bad (for them) contracts that they negotiated.

I don't see this bill going anywhere, at least in it's original form. Also this governor is a one termer for sure.......

[scottb]

I started to read to the summary of the bill, but it does not seem to affect me directly.

I work for a welding company Lincoln Electric. A majority of the jobs there are piece work on the assembly floor. You get paid by what you produce. So, if I bust ass during my shift, it is possible that I can make more then the guy next to me. Make more product = more income for me.

I have worked on the shop assembly floor, moved up to the IT department and now I repair automation welding robots for our customers. (hourly job).

The entire company is part of the year profit sharing = bonus. The company will figure out what the profit pool will be. Each employee is rated for that year to determine their actual percentage of the bonus will be.

One way to increase bonus is to reduce costs of production. So, if the company determines the profit to be 20%, there is a method to determine what percent of that 20% I will earn. If I meet all production goals, had good quality, was a team player, turned in some cost saving suggestions, I may "earn" 110% of that 20%= 22%. The squidly guy next to me might only earn 85% of the 20% = 16.5%.

So, I can earn what I can earn. My performance is rewarded weekly in my pay check and year end in bonus.

This is a super high level how it works summary. There has been a few case studies of the Lincoln Electric culture. No unions, no layoffs, and an active part of a yearly profit sharing.

When the economy went down in 2009, EVERYONE in the company took a paycut. Hourly and salary. While it sucked, it was nice to know we were all in the same boat.

This is a wierd company to work for, but once you understand the culture, it only makes sense on how a company should be run. I have been here for 16 years.

[fireman_343]

Well.. I had a good nights sleep and I hope you all did too knowing that the FD was protecting you!

Well, this bill will affect me in many ways.. one being that management will be able to schedule us how they feel fit. That might not be an issue with some 9-5 workers, but since I work 24 hour shifts, it can really create a hardship! Also working holidays will be a mess and trying to figure out the pay. Management can and will screw someone out of OT just because they don't like them and offer it to the first person they see or "like" and not follow the OT roster we have. They will have the option to deviate (change) my schedule whenever they feel fit, and not give me a 2 week notice that they are doing so. Again, a big hardship for us that work 24 hour shifts and some of them 24 hour shifts are backed up to another 24hr shift... so we could essentially be stuck here for 48-72hrs straight! I don't think that you would want a warn out/tired firefighter/Paramedic going on his 70th work hour fighting your house fire, or trying to decide what drugs to push in the back of the medic during a life and death situation! This not only affects us, but our families also! My career and also the police dept are some of the worst for divorce rates, this will only cause more!

Promotions will be given to who can suck dick the most! No joke! We have promotions for LT and Capt that are based on seniority now... if SB5 passes, then they can promote anyone they want. Just like the old "good ol'boy" system back in the day before unions were around. If you can suck up to the chief, or know the right person, slide them a 5th on the backside, you can promoted!

Leave will not be signed and "guaranteed". So, there is no way to schedule a vacation.. again a HUGE hardship and something people often overlook!

The health care end of it really doesn't affect me at all, since we are already on the low end of things!

I will take about a 10% pay cut! Won't see a raise for years and they can cut my hours back to a 50hrs a week if they wanted to. I don't make that much to begin with! Some teachers make more then me! I don't know where people think that firefighters make a ton of money, because I don't know of a single fireman that is rich because of our job! We make a "decent" amount for what we do and the starting pay for a lot of fire dept's are really LOW! You don't stat making "good" money till you reach lieutenant and then the next step is Capt and (at my FD) if you are a Capt, you are out of the Union because you are part of managemant. I don't get year end bonus checks, or any of that stuff that a lot of 9-5 workers get. Sit back and ask yourself if you can cut your hours back 30% or more and take a 10% pay cut right now! Then factor in the FACT that we go out and put our lifes on the line everyday that I walk into the station... and for what... $10 an hour (starting pay)? I don't think thats fair.

I could go on and on.. but you get the point. We need unions to keep things fair!

Edited February 18, 2011 by fireman_343

[MidgetTodd]

Everything He just said is dead on, and why I am looking at a career change. 36-48hr shifts are common and unrewarded. And as most know Im going thru a divorce too in part because my job as he said Fire and EMS have the highest divorce rate in the country. I've giving alot of myself for this job and its not worth it. This bill will make it even worse.

[shittygsxr]

Huh, my wife puts in more hours then most firefighters and cops and we are not having any issues.

Maybe there is a higher divorce rate among firefighters because women like them and they cheat on their wives. I bet the short man syndrome that many (not all) cops have is a factor too

[fireman_343]

Huh, my wife puts in more hours then most firefighters and cops and we are not having any issues.

Maybe there is a higher divorce rate among firefighters because women like them and they cheat on their wives. I bet the short man syndrome that many (not all) cops have is a factor too

Really?? Does your wife work 120-144hrs every 2 weeks... 24 hr shifts away from the house? Either way, I'm glad you are not having any issues, but I'm sure she can get leave, and pay raises! I won't be able to and I'll be working more if this passes!!

Not sure about the cops, but at least they get to go home after their shift (and most of the time with a fat belly after eatting at the FD)

[Disclaimer]

Well.. I had a good nights sleep and I hope you all did too knowing that the FD was protecting you!

*blah..blah..blah..firefighter gripes*

So how do you respond to the people that say -- "Well, if you don't like your job, then just leave" or "If you don't get promoted or are being treated like crap, then obviously it's your fault that you're not a high performer. You don't get the raises and leave that the other guys do because they're better than you. It's your dept's way of telling you that you need to work harder. Sure, you get shitty hours and shitty pay NOW, but if you work hard, you'll rise to the top... or maybe you just suck?"

What do you say?

[fireman_343]

Everything He just said is dead on, and why I am looking at a career change. 36-48hr shifts are common and unrewarded. And as most know Im going thru a divorce too in part because my job as he said Fire and EMS have the highest divorce rate in the country. I've giving alot of myself for this job and its not worth it. This bill will make it even worse.

That sucks man! Sorry to hear about that! We have had a few guys here that went thru some nasty divorces! And all of them have been from the WIFE fucking around and not the men! 24 hrs away from home and the wifes start thinking.. umm... I can get away with it!

Or.. they don't like us NOT being home with them. I'm lucky and my wife and I have been married for 11 yrs now and the main issue with us since day 1 has been that I'm not at home that offten! She knows that its my job, but hey.. everyone likes to sleep next to their wife/husband at night.

Again, sorry about the divorce.. if you need anything brother just let me know!

[MidgetTodd]

Ive hit 188hrs in 2 weeks. Not by choice either

[shittygsxr]

Really?? Does your wife work 120-144hrs every 2 weeks... 24 hr shifts away from the house? Either way, I'm glad you are not having any issues, but I'm sure she can get leave, and pay raises! I won't be able to and I'll be working more if this passes!!

Not sure about the cops, but at least they get to go home after their shift (and most of the time with a fat belly after eatting at the FD)

Actually now that she is working and back in school its a 6am - midnight 7 day a week thing. You chose your job, if you are worth what you think you are worth then you can quit today and find another job making the same money relatively quickly. If cops, firefighters and teachers are so underpaid why are the jobs so difficult to get? I say janitors are underpaid because those jobs are easy to get.

You are overpaid if, there is a line of qualified people trying to get your job.

You are underpaid if, there is nobody qualified trying to get your job.

[Casper]

Well.. I had a good nights sleep and I hope you all did too knowing that the FD was protecting you!

Well, this bill will affect me in many ways.. one being that management will be able to schedule us how they feel fit. That might not be an issue with some 9-5 workers, but since I work 24 hour shifts, it can really create a hardship! Also working holidays will be a mess and trying to figure out the pay. Management can and will screw someone out of OT just because they don't like them and offer it to the first person they see or "like" and not follow the OT roster we have. They will have the option to deviate (change) my schedule whenever they feel fit, and not give me a 2 week notice that they are doing so. Again, a big hardship for us that work 24 hour shifts and some of them 24 hour shifts are backed up to another 24hr shift... so we could essentially be stuck here for 48-72hrs straight! I don't think that you would want a warn out/tired firefighter/Paramedic going on his 70th work hour fighting your house fire, or trying to decide what drugs to push in the back of the medic during a life and death situation! This not only affects us, but our families also! My career and also the police dept are some of the worst for divorce rates, this will only cause more!

Promotions will be given to who can suck dick the most! No joke! We have promotions for LT and Capt that are based on seniority now... if SB5 passes, then they can promote anyone they want. Just like the old "good ol'boy" system back in the day before unions were around. If you can suck up to the chief, or know the right person, slide them a 5th on the backside, you can promoted!

Leave will not be signed and "guaranteed". So, there is no way to schedule a vacation.. again a HUGE hardship and something people often overlook!

The health care end of it really doesn't affect me at all, since we are already on the low end of things!

I will take about a 10% pay cut! Won't see a raise for years and they can cut my hours back to a 50hrs a week if they wanted to. I don't make that much to begin with! Some teachers make more then me! I don't know where people think that firefighters make a ton of money, because I don't know of a single fireman that is rich because of our job! We make a "decent" amount for what we do and the starting pay for a lot of fire dept's are really LOW! You don't stat making "good" money till you reach lieutenant and then the next step is Capt and (at my FD) if you are a Capt, you are out of the Union because you are part of managemant. I don't get year end bonus checks, or any of that stuff that a lot of 9-5 workers get. Sit back and ask yourself if you can cut your hours back 30% or more and take a 10% pay cut right now! Then factor in the FACT that we go out and put our lifes on the line everyday that I walk into the station... and for what... $10 an hour (starting pay)? I don't think thats fair.

I could go on and on.. but you get the point. We need unions to keep things fair!

I must be an idiot. I don't see how the bill does any of that, other than the merit based pay. But I don't see how that means you'll go years without a raise. It doesn't have anything to do with hours. The only mention of "holiday" or "over-time" in the bill have been struck out. As I read it, it won't affect you much unless you are a supervisor, in which case you will no longer be allowed to participate in the collective bargaining. And you can no longer go on strike, which I truly believe no state employee should be allowed to go on strike, especially police, fire, and teachers. It isn't killing collective bargaining all together. What am I missing here? Definitely not wanting to start a fight, I just want to be educated on this. I've read almost the entire bill, and plan on finishing it today.

[Disclaimer]

What's the definition of a "supervisor"?

Hell, I'm sure the chief can print out a placard and put "supervisor" after your name - and you're no longer in the collective bargaining process. Simply applying a label to someone to shift power -- done all the time, and then the rules no longer apply.

[shittygsxr]

I must be an idiot. I don't see how the bill does any of that, other than the merit based pay. But I don't see how that means you'll go years without a raise. It doesn't have anything to do with hours. The only mention of "holiday" or "over-time" in the bill have been struck out. As I read it, it won't affect you much unless you are a supervisor, in which case you will no longer be allowed to participate in the collective bargaining. And you can no longer go on strike, which I truly believe no state employee should be allowed to go on strike, especially police, fire, and teachers. It isn't killing collective bargaining all together. What am I missing here? Definitely not wanting to start a fight, I just want to be educated on this. I've read almost the entire bill, and plan on finishing it today.

Its the same thing nurses do, they are so scared of change because most of them live based on getting ass loads of OT and as soon as its cut they can't pay their bills. Any whisper of change and it is mass hysteria.

[fireman_343]

So how do you respond to the people that say -- "Well, if you don't like your job, then just leave" or "If you don't get promoted or are being treated like crap, then obviously it's your fault that you're not a high performer. You don't get the raises and leave that the other guys do because they're better than you. It's your dept's way of telling you that you need to work harder. Sure, you get shitty hours and shitty pay NOW, but if you work hard, you'll rise to the top... or maybe you just suck?"

What do you say?

You obviously have never worked at at fire dept. 90% of the public just doesn't know what happends and how things work at the FD.

It doesn't matter how much you work, or how hard you work here.. without a union... the chiefs will promote who they like and it DOESN'T MATTER how hard you work, how good of a firefighter/paramedic you are, how well you do building inspections, how many lifes you saved, how good you cook, how well you wash trucks, etc... they will promote a dirtbag over you just because they know his daddy or they are good friends off shift! No fucking joke!!

You can kind of see it now, even with a union... the fire chiefs have their "boys" that they like and they can get away with MURDER, but if I miss a spot on the truck, I'll get my yelled at! I can file a grievance if I feel that I am being bullied or treated un-fair.

Leave is a huge issue with any fire dept.. if you can not get time off... you will get burnt out and start making BAD decisions! Thats a fact!

[Casper]

What's the definition of a "supervisor"?

Hell, I'm sure the chief can print out a placard and put "supervisor" after your name - and you're no longer in the collective bargaining process. Simply applying a label to someone to shift power -- done all the time, and then the rules no longer apply.

Currently, only the chiefs, lieutenants, etc. Under the new proposal, anyone who has direct reports and has power to set schedules/pay/time off/etc. So essentially, it's fixing it. If you supervise, you're a supervisor. This excludes you from the collective bargaining process. Which, I think is the correct thing to do. It's a conflict of interest.

[Casper]

You obviously have never worked at at fire dept. 90% of the public just doesn't know what happends and how things work at the FD.

It doesn't matter how much you work, or how hard you work here.. without a union... the chiefs will promote who they like and it DOESN'T MATTER how hard you work, how good of a firefighter/paramedic you are, how well you do building inspections, how many lifes you saved, how good you cook, how well you wash trucks, etc... they will promote a dirtbag over you just because they know his daddy or they are good friends off shift! No fucking joke!!

You can kind of see it now, even with a union... the fire chiefs have their "boys" that they like and they can get away with MURDER, but if I miss a spot on the truck, I'll get my yelled at! I can file a grievance if I feel that I am being bullied or treated un-fair.

Leave is a huge issue with any fire dept.. if you can not get time off... you will get burnt out and start making BAD decisions! Thats a fact!

But, if you're not a supervisor, how is the bill keeping you from being able to file a grievance? How is it messing with your time off? I'm so freaking confused.

[fireman_343]

Actually now that she is working and back in school its a 6am - midnight 7 day a week thing. You chose your job, if you are worth what you think you are worth then you can quit today and find another job making the same money relatively quickly. If cops, firefighters and teachers are so underpaid why are the jobs so difficult to get? I say janitors are underpaid because those jobs are easy to get.

You are overpaid if, there is a line of qualified people trying to get your job.

You are underpaid if, there is nobody qualified trying to get your job.

Right... I have specialized training in just the fire dept, degrees for just the fire dept.. So, I won't be able to get another job making what I make with the degrees and certs that I have!

I never said we are underpaid.. I said we make a decent wage for what we do.. I'm not getting rich doing this job.. thats for sure! And its difficult to get on with the FD because it doesn't require a degree (most don't), you can go to the fire academy for 13 weeks (maybe longer, don't know how long the training is since I've been doing this for 12 yrs now) and get your certs to get on with a township or city FD.. Most city FD's have civial service tests, so joe blow off the street can take the test and try to get on. Its hard if you don't have the training.. but if you've got the taining/certs and apply all around I-270 here in Columbus, you'll get a call back!

And I don't get a lot of OT as it is anyway... nurses.. I can see them getting a lot of OT, but I didn't make much in OT last year

Edited February 18, 2011 by fireman_343

[fireman_343]

But, if you're not a supervisor, how is the bill keeping you from being able to file a grievance? How is it messing with your time off? I'm so freaking confused.

Because I can only file a grievance if I have a union that backs me up... The state will allways side with the fire chief if you don't have a union that will back up the little guys!

Time off.. same thing.. my union has a LOA for how we do our scheduled time off each year that the chiefs have to follow! Its a fair way of doing it and we go by seniority. Without the LOA in effect... then they can change schedules when ever they want (see my long post on that a few pages back), deny leave for no reason, etc.. And if you think it won't happen.. then you are kidding yourself! They are chomp'n at the bits to get the big fat DENY stamp and slam it down on your leave form!

Edited February 18, 2011 by fireman_343

[Disclaimer]

Without the LOA in effect... then they can change schedules when ever they want (see my long post on that a few pages back), deny leave for no reason, etc.. And if you think it won't happen.. then you are kidding yourself! They are chomp'n at the bits to get the big fat DENY stamp and slam it down on your leave form!

I get it fireman, I'm on your side of this debate (though I'm just stoking the fire for the most part). But, honestly, the part I don't get is WHY are the chiefs so eager to DENY and screw people over? I know they do it and that's why you have a union, but I never figured out how it's in their best interest to do that other than to be a bunch of assholes -- and powertrippin' has never been a good reason for anything.

[shittygsxr]

I get it fireman, I'm on your side of this debate (though I'm just stoking the fire for the most part). But, honestly, the part I don't get is WHY are the chiefs so eager to DENY and screw people over? I know they do it and that's why you have a union, but I never figured out how it's in their best interest to do that other than to be a bunch of assholes -- and powertrippin' has never been a good reason for anything.

because they were promoted because of tenure not work performance and many are not a right fit for the job.

[Casper]

Because I can only file a grievance if I have a union that backs me up... The state will allways side with the fire chief if you don't have a union that will back up the little guys!

Time off.. same thing.. my union has a LOA for how we do our scheduled time off each year that the chiefs have to follow! Its a fair way of doing it and we go by seniority. Without the LOA in effect... then they can change schedules when ever they want (see my long post on that a few pages back), deny leave for no reason, etc.. And if you think it won't happen.. then you are kidding yourself! They are chomp'n at the bits to get the big fat DENY stamp and slam it down on your leave form!

But the union isn't going away, right? So why wouldn't they back you up?

[fireman_343]

because they were promoted because of tenure not work performance and many are not a right fit for the job.

No.. the promotion process is like this... if there is a Lt. slot open and you have enough time in service to apply, you can do so. Once you apply, you still have to take a physical agility test (don gear, drag hose, dummies, climb ladders, etc) and it's timed. Once you pass that, you then have to go thru the interview board and be interviewed for the job. Then, the chief's and HR person all get together and hire who has the highest score and who interviewed the best. So, that will "weed out" the dirtbags that apply just because they have time in service.

Just because you have enough time to become a Lt.. doesn't mean that they just "hand" you the promotion.. you have to go out and earn it