copper or lead

[wht_scorpion]

I need to know what would burn out rifling faster copper or lead? My girl just got her CCW. What would hit hard if she use it?

[swingset]

Copper is harder than lead, end of story. But, a lot more goes into rifling longevity than just material. A 220 swift shooting lead will burn out quicker than a .22lr shooting copper.

As for what hits hard, that depends on caliber but most modern self-defense loadings are quite good - Gold Dot, PDX, Critical Defense, etc. JHP's are all I would consider, unless your gun is too finicky to load them consistently (and in that case, get a new gun).

That said, you're going to go broke before you wear out most pistol barrels. I have a P89 that's got 40,000 rounds through it and the rifling is still sharp. Don't worry about that.

[BDBGoalie]

Agreed. You're putting 10s of thousands of rounds downrange before the barrel will go bad, and more than likely something else will fail first.

As far as picking out a weapon, get something she is comfortable with. If she likes the weapon and the recoil, she will shoot it more, and become more accurate with that. If you put three rounds in the "x" ring, it really doesn't matter what caliber you are using.

Larger caliber typically increases the weight of the weapon as well. Since she is going to have to be comfortable carrying this around all day, make sure the loaded weight won't bother her.

Also, the larger the caliber, the less rounds you get in your mag, so the more your shot selection and placement matters.

As far as calibers, there are plenty to choose from depending on needs. Penetration will depend on ammo used (Type of JHP). You need to shoot your CCW monthly, so keep ammo cost in mind as well. I'm not including all handgun calibers as well, just some of the more common. Ammo is Federal Hydra-Shok where not listed.

.22lr - Minimal stopping power. Low recoil. $5/20rds (Federal JHP, price adjusted to box of 20).

.25ACP - Minimal stopping power. Low recoil. $18/20rds (Speer JHP).

7.62x25 - Decent stopping power. Minimal recoil, but not terrible. $21/50rds (Couldn't find prices on JHP).

.38 Special- Good stopping power. Medium recoil. $23/20rds.

.380ACP - Good stopping power. Medium-heavy recoil (But most .380s are small frame pistols). $22/20rds.

9mm - Good stopping power. Medium recoil. $21/20rds.

.357 Mag - Better stopping power. Medium-heavy recoil. $17/20rds.

.40S&W - Better stopping power. Medium-heavy recoil. $24/20rds.

.45ACP - Better stopping power. Heavy recoil. $24/20rds.

10mm - Best stopping power. Heavy recoil. Nasty powerful round. $27/20rds.

Edited April 26, 2012 by BDBGoalie
Defined ammo costs

[imprez55]

Copper is harder than lead, end of story. But, a lot more goes into rifling longevity than just material. A 220 swift shooting lead will burn out quicker than a .22lr shooting copper.

As for what hits hard, that depends on caliber but most modern self-defense loadings are quite good - Gold Dot, PDX, Critical Defense, etc. JHP's are all I would consider, unless your gun is too finicky to load them consistently (and in that case, get a new gun).

That said, you're going to go broke before you wear out most pistol barrels. I have a P89 that's got 40,000 rounds through it and the rifling is still sharp. Don't worry about that.

+1 to all of this. Lead is softer so it will wear out slower (although lead tends to foul them quicker) but its irrelevant because a barrel for a standard chambered pistol will last so long anyway.

[wht_scorpion]

Yeah even after cleaning the gun will lead fill in the rifling. since it is a low temp for melting lead

she has a P22 she tryed to put 36 grain in it and rechamber the next round. she had to use 40 grain and it worked.

thank guys for your help

Edited April 26, 2012 by wht_scorpion

[ReconRat]

Both lead and copper remain in the barrel after firing. Along with powder residues. All should be removed during cleaning as best as possible. Although a build up of copper and lead can change the way the weapon shoots, it is the powder residue that must be removed. Some powders are more corrosive than others, and the same is true for the primers.

Basically powder and primer residues look dirty. It should be removed until the barrel bore looks clean and shiny again. Oil it, heavy or light, but run a patch through to remove the oil before firing the next time. There are liquid solutions to help remove the lead and copper, but most involve plugging one end of the barrel and filling it up and letting it soak. The lead and copper are difficult to remove, and some always stays in there.

Neither lead or copper will burn out the barrel, but the flame from firing will slowly erode the barrel throat (reducing accuracy and performance), and the corrosion from powders and primers will rot the barrel unless it's chromed. Chromed just takes longer to corrode. Barrel erosion is more common with high powered rifles. Anything with high velocities, I'd think.

[Beegreenstrings]

Lead, with correct up-keep, will actually help polish the inside of your barrel. Ever heard of lead lapping. I'm not going to say it will make it better but over time the copper jacket can eat away or chew away at imperfections. Where as lead fills in in the pits of the steel and actually can improve the barrel.

That is way when we load for our matches my buddy and I only buy lead. That and it's way cheaper.

[ReconRat]

Yeah, the lead can improve performance. I kinda think the copper can too. But I've also seen build ups of lead and/or copper that were too much. Like I said, it's pretty difficult to remove all of it. Just go for the shiny and clean bore. It's whatever works best, I think.

Lead lapping is fire lapping. But it requires the use of an abrasive coating on the bullet. I generally prefer to hand lap with just the abrasive. A very mild abrasive, like the red jeweler's rouge. (edit: basically I'm polishing, not lapping.)

edit: good article on lead lapping / fire lapping.

http://www.shootingtimes.com/2010/09/23/gunsmithing_st_lappingbarrel_200805/

Edited April 27, 2012 by ReconRat

[ReconRat]

I also found this from Armalite. I didn't realize that lead lapping was sort of a standard on AR15 style barrels. But I would think some sort of final finishing on any rifling of a barrel would have to be done, during manufacturing. I'd also not want to do this to a barrel that is already chromed. Only polishing instead.

GT-7. QUESTION: What is barrel lapping? Why are ArmaLite’s barrels lapped?

ANSWER: Barrel lapping is a method of smoothing the bore of a barrel. It involves polishing the bore by passing lead slugs up and down the barrel repeatedly. The slug is impregnated with fine lapping compound, which does the actual smoothing.

Barrels are lapped to smooth out machine marks left by the rifling process, and to make the bore diameter more uniform from one end to the other. The smoothed barrels don’t damage passing bullets as much as rougher barrels, and this reduction in bullet damage is linked to improved accuracy.

ArmaLite uses lapped barrels for both match and standard, chromed barrels. The benefit of lapping match barrels has already been addressed. Barrels to be chromed benefit from lapping too. Chrome deposits more evenly on smooth barrels. Since chroming tends to reduce accuracy, it makes sense to start with a lapped, accurate barrel before lapping (sic: before chroming) to assure that the resulting chromed barrel is as accurate as possible.

Lead laps tend to wear out quickly. Three separate laps are therefore used on ArmaLite’s AR-30, AR-50 and all stainless barrels. Two laps are used on standard barrels.

http://www.armalite.com/Categories.aspx?Category=538b8c3c-6710-4282-839f-fb5caf8043a3

geez, do I have to proofread everything? They meant before chroming, not before lapping... Edited April 27, 2012 by ReconRat

[Gixxus Christ!]

Copper jacketing was developed because high velocity pistol rounds using smokeless powder and lead slugs were fouling barrels due to the lead melting in the barrel due to friction. This comes straight from a spokesperson at hornady. Also polygonal rifling (like in a Glock barrel) will also mangle an un-jacketed round.

[crb]

Shoot either shoot often. And for defense ammo use hollow points or frangibiles, full metal jacets will use go through and through.

[ReconRat]

Copper jacketing was developed because high velocity pistol rounds using smokeless powder and lead slugs were fouling barrels due to the lead melting in the barrel due to friction. This comes straight from a spokesperson at hornady. Also polygonal rifling (like in a Glock barrel) will also mangle an un-jacketed round.

Good point. There are advantages to copper jacketing. Reminds me that lead in magnums was a pain. And firing a few copper jackets after firing lead would take some of it out of the barrel.

[snot]

I have both. I only have only used the copper, but bought lead for the .38 special. I was told aftger the fact not to use lead because it can mess up the barrel. So is this true?

[ReconRat]

Lead in a .38 special? No harm if you clean it well. Most of the lead will come back out when cleaning the barrel. It's just easier when shooting only copper jackets. Same deal though, most of the copper comes back out. Some lead or copper always remains behind. But it's usually filling in small imperfections or corrosion pitting, and does no harm.

[Gixxus Christ!]

38 spc is actually a holdover cartridge from the black powder days, low pressures, low-ish velocity. Lead wad cutters are fine as long as they aren't loaded plus p.

[kawi kid]

Don't fire lead our of your glock.

[snot]

no +P, just .38 special lead. I was told they would be good for defense.

[Gixxus Christ!]

Use a round that its actually manufactured for defense, it will help in the inevitable court date that follows actually using it in defense. Never carry with hand loads and never carry a pistol that had been modified from stock.

[kawi kid]

I see where you are coming from with all those suggestions but I still say no matter what you do it all depends on the prosecutor. Also a good defense lawyer will know how to go about all that. If I have a 5# connector in my glock I would hope he would be able to argue for accuracy being the reason for the switch.

[crb]

never carry a pistol that had been modified from stock.

I agreed with you until this statement. I dont think changing the sights, grips, polishing feed ramp, etc could harm you I'm a case. I would not put skull mag plates on or stuff like that.

Bad idea in my opinion:

I do not believe these could harm.you in court honestly.

Edited April 27, 2012 by crb